Receiving Communion

[benedictgal]

Here is a previous response from Rome concerning the issue of kneeling to receive Holy Communion:

Prot. n. 1322/02/L

Rome, 1 July 2002

The Congregation in fact is concerned at the number of similar complaints that it has received in recent months from various places, and considers any refusal of Holy Communion to a member of the faithful on the basis of his or her kneeling posture to be a grave violation of one of the most basic rights of the Christian faithful, namely that of being assisted by their Pastors by means of the Sacraments (Codex Iuris Canonici, canon 213). In view of the law that “sacred ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who opportunely ask for them, are properly disposed and are not prohibited by law from receiving them” (canon 843 ¶ 1), there should be no such refusal to any Catholic who presents himself for Holy Communion at Mass, except in cases presenting a danger of grave scandal to other believers arising out of the person’s unrepented public sin or obstinate heresy or schism, publicly professed or declared. Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.

In fact, as His Eminence, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has recently emphasized, the practice of kneeling for Holy Communion has in its favor a centuries-old tradition, and it is a particularly expressive sign of adoration, completely appropriate in light of the true, real and substantial presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ under the consecrated species.

It is consistent with the responses that it has given in this issue. Furthermore, the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger is even quoted here, the very one who is now Pope Benedict XVI.

 

[Walking_Home]

Originally Posted by Walking_Home View Post

A devastating response.

A response that speaks the truth MarkThompson—truth—nothing more --nothing less–just the truth.

Thank you! Yes, my response did speak the truth. I’m glad you looked back over it and figured out where you were mistaken.
[/quote]

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Since it gives you pleasure – MarkThompson—to distort Rome’s own words, the words of a canon lawyer, and even my own response to you----well give another smile and pat yourself on the back.
[/QUOTE]

 

[MarkThompson]

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Since it gives you pleasure – MarkThompson—to distort Rome’s own words, the words of a canon lawyer, and even my own response to you----well give another smile and pat yourself on the back.

I find your repeated remarks in this vein snide and uncharitable and have reported them to the moderator. Have a nice evening.

 

[Walking_Home]

Just to add to what benedictgal has already provided–the force behind the letters/directives issued by the CDWDS. So that people are not let astray --below is the hierarchical nature of the Church. The Congregation of Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments performs in the name of the Roman pontiff (the Pope) and with his authority.

vatican.va/roman_curia/index.htm

THE ROMAN CURIA

In exercising supreme, full, and immediate power in the universal Church, the Roman pontiff makes use of the departments of the Roman Curia which, therefore, perform their duties in his name and with his authority for the good of the churches and in the service of the sacred pastors.

Secretariat of State

Congregations

etc.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/index.htm

Congregations

Doctrine of the Faith

Oriental Churches

Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments

etc.

 

[Walking_Home]

I find your repeated remarks in this vein snide and uncharitable and have reported them to the moderator. Have a nice evening.

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That is fine MarkThompson. You do what you want to do. I hope the moderator reviews all the posts—between you and I. I have not said–what is not true.

 

[5Loaves]

The GIRM doesn’t prescribe a posture for the readings whereas it prescribes as standing is the norm for Communion.

GIRM 43 §1, 2. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.

They should, however,** sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed **and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.

 

[Vico]

Condensed, for the US:

Stand: from the beginning of Mass until the First Reading.
Sit: from the first Reading until the Gospel Acclamation.
Stand: from the Gospel Acclamation until the end of the Gospel.
Sit: during the Homily.
Stand: from the Profession of Faith until the end of the General Intercessions.
Sit: from the Preparation of the Gifts to the completion of Pray brethren.
Stand: from the beginning of the peoples’ response May the Lord… to the beginning of the Holy, Holy.
Kneel: from the completion of the Holy, Holy until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer [Exceptions allow standing, but bow when genuflect] .
Stand: from the beginning of the Our Father until the completion of the Lamb of God.
Kneel: from the completion of the Lamb of God (at the Behold the Lamb of God…) until the Distribution of Holy Communion [Bishop may specify stand.]
Stand: when Receiving Holy Communion [Bow head, Amen].
Sit/Stand/Kneel: during the sacred silence after the Distribution of Holy Communion.
Stand: from the beginning of the Prayer after Communion until the end of Mass.

 

[ConstantineTG]

GIRM 43 §1, 2. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.

They should, however,** sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed **and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.

At a later post I did already say I made a mistake and was looking at the wrong section of the GIRM

But I also made the same point. It says to sit but didn’t say I cannot stand or kneel. So should I if its what I feel?

 

[ConstantineTG]

For the after communion silence, there was a dubium. On June 5, 2003, Cardinal George received the following response (Prot. n. 855/03/L) from Cardinal Francis Arinze, Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments:

"Dubium: In many places, the faithful are accustomed to kneeling or sitting in personal prayer upon returning to their places after having individually received Holy Communion during Mass. Is it the intention of the Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia, to forbid this practice?

The GIRM sets the norm. People have been clamoring for unity in Liturgy and yet when the prescription is against their wishes, people go against it.

I think Mark has worded it far better than I can. Kneeling is recommended, the directive is not to deny communion to those who kneel and then address is pastoraly. It means the priest would have to explain why we have to follow a norm, not just let people do what they wish.

Responsum: Negative, et ad mentem. The mens is that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on the one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.

In the implementation of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, therefore, posture should not be regulated so rigidly as to forbid individual communicants from kneeling or sitting when returning from having received Holy Communion."

usccb.org/liturgy/innews/703.shtml

That is why I brought to light another part of Mass where there is a directed posture, and yet it does not say we cannot do anything else. Whats happening is people are dissecting the Church documents the same way liberal Americans nowadays are dissecting the Constitution to get what they want. One aspect of our faith is obedience, to God and to those who are given the authority over us. Legalistic word play is not part of our faith.

 

[5Loaves]

At a later post I did already say I made a mistake and was looking at the wrong section of the GIRM

But I also made the same point. It says to sit but didn’t say I cannot stand or kneel. So should I if its what I feel?

Mea culpa, friend. I’m sorry I missed that. There is quite an amazing level of redundancy in this thread which I fear has quite numbed my grey cells! :hypno:

As for posture for the readings… standing during the readings, well we do it in my parish… but I don’t think I’d recommend it in the Roman Rite. except of course the proclamation of the Holy Gospel.

Well, the clock strikes 12 so I will revert to my no surfing on Sunday mode… oh wait Sunday began at sundown didn’t it… oops, that’s another thread…

 

[ConstantineTG]

Mea culpa, friend. I’m sorry I missed that. There is quite an amazing level of redundancy in this thread which I fear has quite numbed my grey cells! :hypno:

As for posture for the readings… standing during the readings, well we do it in my parish… but I don’t think I’d recommend it in the Roman Rite. except of course the proclamation of the Holy Gospel.

Well, the clock strikes 12 so I will revert to my no surfing on Sunday mode… oh wait Sunday began at sundown didn’t it… oops, that’s another thread…

Heheheh. Well I’ve been trying to get DL into my regular schedule but it conflicts with my wife’s choir time, and someone has to be with the baby. Oh well.

I do hope you’re getting what I’m saying at. People love to bring up documents and over analyze directives, just so they can find a loophole to do what they want. But what the Church really asks of us is obedience.

 

[CallistusPM]

Your argument already would fall short here knowing that there are 6 Rites, 5 of which receive standing exclusively. There is no kneeling at all especially in the Byzantine Rite. So universally, the Church already adheres to different traditions. The oneness of the Church is not dependent on minor traditions or practices. Just like eating is eating, universally people would eat everywhere. Minor details like using the fork and knife in North America, chopsticks in East Asia, bare hands in South East and South Asia, etc, doesn’t change the fact that everyone in the world eats. The same way that a person can be standing or kneeling to receive Communion doesn’t change the fact that universally Catholics receive the Eucharist. Don’t forget that the point of the Eucharist is receiving the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. Whether you are standing or kneeling is besides the point and dictated by norms and disciplines.

So are you saying that the Byzantine Rite that is celebrated across 12 sui juris Churches is not as good because it was always celebrated in the vernacular since its beginnings? I think you are lacking a perspective of how it is in the entire Catholic Church.

I have no argument for what you say concerning six rites. Am speaking of - and the pope was speaking of - The Latin Mass of the Roman Rite. Each rite has its own traditional and historic significance and should be preserved. The Traditional Latin Mass of the Romal Rite, since Vatican II, is having a difficult time doing this. I think His Holiness is just trying to preserve another part of the rich liturgical history that composes this “Universal Church.” I have no qualms with the vernacular or various positions for receiving communion - Lord knows, one can hardly expect to kneel while receiving Extreme Eunction - Your metaphore comparing receiving communion to various styles of eating food is pushing the envelope a bit.
One must remember that, unlike the Novus Ordo format, the traditional Mass has very strict boundaries and is not subject to individual interpretation or innovations. The parameters are rigorous, accurate, precise, ascetic and astere, almost draconian in nature. There is little chance of any deviation from the norm . This promotes “Universality.”
Now, I do know from primary sources, that there are Novus Ordo ministers that will not administer communion to anyone kneeling and/or on the tongue.
22Aug.: The Immaculate Heart of the BVM
CallistusPM

 

[benedictgal]

Condensed, for the US:

Stand: from the beginning of Mass until the First Reading.
Sit: from the first Reading until the Gospel Acclamation.
Stand: from the Gospel Acclamation until the end of the Gospel.
Sit: during the Homily.
Stand: from the Profession of Faith until the end of the General Intercessions.
Sit: from the Preparation of the Gifts to the completion of Pray brethren.
Stand: from the beginning of the peoples’ response May the Lord… to the beginning of the Holy, Holy.
Kneel: from the completion of the Holy, Holy until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer [Exceptions allow standing, but bow when genuflect] .
Stand: from the beginning of the Our Father until the completion of the Lamb of God.
Kneel: from the completion of the Lamb of God (at the Behold the Lamb of God…) until the Distribution of Holy Communion [Bishop may specify stand.]
Stand: when Receiving Holy Communion [Bow head, Amen]
Sit/Stand/Kneel: during the sacred silence after the Distribution of Holy Communion.
Stand: from the beginning of the Prayer after Communion until the end of Mass.

However, I think that, insofar as the reception of Holy Communion is concerned, you might want to add a little asterisk to indicate that those faithful who choose to kneel can certainly do so because the posture is not ilicit and they should not be denied Holy Communion simply because they kneel. Furthermore, if you receive kneeling, there is no need to bow your head because the posture of kneeling is already reverence enough.

 

[benedictgal]

Heheheh. Well I’ve been trying to get DL into my regular schedule but it conflicts with my wife’s choir time, and someone has to be with the baby. Oh well.

I do hope you’re getting what I’m saying at. People love to bring up documents and over analyze directives, just so they can find a loophole to do what they want. But what the Church really asks of us is obedience.

I do not think that the issue of “kneeling” is one where a loophole is involved. As the correspondence from the CDWDS indicates (and these bear protocol numbers), there have been lots of letters of complaint from the faithful in the United States about the issue of kneeling to receive Holy Communion. Please bear in mind that standing in the US was approved only on the condition that those who chose to use the universal norm of kneeling would not be prevented from doing so, nor denied Holy Communion because they chose that posture.

 

[MarkThompson]

However, I think that, insofar as the reception of Holy Communion is concerned, you might want to add a little asterisk to indicate that those faithful who choose to kneel can certainly do so because the posture is not ilicit and they should not be denied Holy Communion simply because they kneel. Furthermore, if you receive kneeling, there is no need to bow your head because the posture of kneeling is already reverence enough.

Of course, you’ll need to add an asterisk to that asterisk to warn anyone who does that that they ought to prepared to be pastorally corrected with respect to our national norm of standing, which the Vatican has repeatedly confirmed to bear all the force of liturgical law.

Edit: also, kneeling is not a “universal norm.” The editio typica of the GIRM confirms that there is in fact no universal norm for the Mass of Paul VI. Rather, “Fideles communicant genuflexi vel stantes, prout Conferentia Episcoporum statuerit.” (“The faithful communicate kneeling or standing, according as the Conference of Bishops shall have determined.”)

 

[Vico]

However, I think that, insofar as the reception of Holy Communion is concerned, you might want to add a little asterisk to indicate that those faithful who choose to kneel can certainly do so because the posture is not ilicit and they should not be denied Holy Communion simply because they kneel. Furthermore, if you receive kneeling, there is no need to bow your head because the posture of kneeling is already reverence enough.

For the US, those faithful who choose to kneel must certainly be instructed on the reason for the standing norm.

I see people kneeling sometimes, yet as the USCCB gives the standing norm (as shown earlier in post #39, Aug 20, 2010, and below) with tolerance and catechesis for those that kneel. So the reason that standing is proper and acceptable should be provided to those that kneel.

“The norm for the reception of communion is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed by providing the communicant with a catechesis on the reason for the norm.”

usccb.org/liturgy/innews/092002.shtml

 

[Walking_Home]

However, I think that, insofar as the reception of Holy Communion is concerned, you might want to add a little asterisk to indicate that those faithful who choose to kneel can certainly do so because the posture is not ilicit and they should not be denied Holy Communion simply because they kneel. Furthermore, if you receive kneeling, there is no need to bow your head because the posture of kneeling is already reverence enough.

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You are right benedictgal.

 

[benedictgal]

For the US, those faithful who choose to kneel must certainly be instructed on the reason for the standing norm.

I see people kneeling sometimes, yet as the USCCB gives the standing norm (as shown earlier in post #39, Aug 20, 2010, and below) with tolerance and catechesis for those that kneel. So the reason that standing is proper and acceptable should be provided to those that kneel.

“The norm for the reception of communion is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed by providing the communicant with a catechesis on the reason for the norm.”

usccb.org/liturgy/innews/092002.shtml

However, “tolerance”, isn’t exactly what the CDWDS was looking for when it gave the USCCB permission to insert this particular norm. This is not the language that the CDWDS has used in its correspondence to the USCCB and to the faithful regarding this matter.

Again, standing was made the norm under the condition that those who wish to kneel in order to receive would not have their right abrogated:

To this end, it is perhaps useful to respond to your inquiry by repeating the content of a letter that the Congregation recently addressed to a Bishop in the United States of America from whose Diocese a number of pertinent letters had been received. The letter states: "…while this Congregation gave the recognitio to the norm desired by the Bishops’ Conference of your country that people stand for Holy Communion, this was done on the condition that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds. Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion".

With all due respect, this is what I think you might not be taking into account. Therefore, if the CDWDS states that those who choose to receive Holy Communion kneeling are not acting ilicitly, then, we should accept the CDWDS interpretation since this Congregation acts with and in the name and authority of the Holy Father. Thus, I stand by my reply to your post.

 

[suko]

Therefore, if the CDWDS states that those who choose to receive Holy Communion kneeling are not acting ilicitly, then, we should accept the CDWDS interpretation since this Congregation acts with and in the name and authority of the Holy Father.

Yes, anything that CDWDS says easily trumps what’s been stated as “norm” by a bishop’s conference.

EWTN put in a good article here (if anyone is interested):
ewtn.com/expert/answers/communion_posture.htm
I’ll copy, paste and bold the main points of it (so no need to click the link if you don’t feel like it )

It should be noted that the Holy See alone can authentically interpret legislation it has initiated or approved. The following was issued in response to a dubium of Cardinal George of Chicago. The reference is to the general posture norm, GIRM 43, and whether communicants can kneel down for their thanksgiving after Communion when everyone else is standing, however, it is clear that the mind (mens) of the Holy See on the role of posture is expressed. The general principle enunciated in the response would therefore also apply to GIRM 160, and the issues of kneeling to receive and genuflecting before receiving.

Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments

5 June 2003

Prot. n. 855/03/L

Dubium: In many places, the faithful are accustomed to kneeling or sitting in personal prayer upon returning to their places after individually received Holy Communion during Mass. Is it the intention of the Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia, to forbid this practice?

Responsum: Negative, et ad mentem. The mens is that that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of the Holy Mass, **and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such  a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free**.

Francis Cardinal Arinze
Prefect

 

[MarkThompson]

And, by the way, for those of you who kneel, if your priest fails to address the issue and give you pastoral correction on the reasons for our norm (which has the force of liturgical law), you really ought to complain to your bishop about the priest’s dereliction of duty. No priest has the right to pick and choose which parts of the GIRM he won’t obey, whether based on his own whims and predilections or on an attitude of disobedience to legal norms. If your priest is not addressing the issue and offering pastoral correction, make sure you report his disobedience to the bishop. The last thing we need are more wishy-washy or self-absorbed priests who think they can get away with blatant disregard of liturgical law. The Mass is not the priest’s plaything; he needs to say the black and do, in this case, what the GIRM commands.