Receiving Holy Spirit during baptism or confirmation?

[GodHeals]

Hi,

I have a friend in RCIA and we talked about him having received the Holy Spirit, but vaguely recall thinking the Holy Spirit comes at Confirmation… at least on my own Confirmation gift it shows a sign of the Holy Spirit. Why is that?

Will my friend who has only received Baptism in another “church” / ecclesial community receive the Holy Spirit for the first time or Confirm that he has received the Holy Spirit?

I thought the oil and maybe even the Holy Spirit came with Confirmation… Please help me process.

Thank you,
Brian

"What does the Sacred Chrism symbolize?

The Sacred Chrism, or oil, is a sign of the gift of the Holy Spirit being given to the newly baptized. It is also a sign of the close link between the mission of Jesus and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, who comes to the recipient with the Father in Baptism." - usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/who-we-teach/rite-of-christian-initiation-of-adults/index.cfm

 

[Vico]

Hi,

I have a friend in RCIA and we talked about him having received the Holy Spirit, but vaguely recall thinking the Holy Spirit comes at Confirmation… at least on my own Confirmation gift it shows a sign of the Holy Spirit. Why is that?

Will my friend who has only received Baptism in another “church” / ecclesial community receive the Holy Spirit for the first time or Confirm that he has received the Holy Spirit?

I thought the oil and maybe even the Holy Spirit came with Confirmation… Please help me process.

Thank you,
Brian

Baptism is the first of the three Holy Mysteries of Christian initiation, each brings the Holy Spirit (Baptism, Confirmation (Chrismation) and Eucharist). If one is worthy to receive, then Confirmation (Chrismation), will increase the grace of the Holy Spirit. Each Holy Mystery (Sacrament) gives a specific strength. With Confirmation (Chrismation) the Christian is permanently marked as a witness of Christ enabled to preserve, profess, and communicate the faith even as a martyr.

 

[1ke]

You receive the Holy Spirit at baptism.

The graces received at baptism are strengthened at Confirmation and you receive additional graces including the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

 

[O_Moriah]

We also need to be careful from implying the Spirit is absent from the person before any sacraments are given. When Catechumens come to the Church seeking baptism, they do so at the prompting of the Holy Spirit.

It is similar to the situation Peter found at the house of Cornelius, who was a Pagan. When Peter preached to them, Cornelius and his family were filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. Then they were baptized.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

We also need to be careful from implying the Spirit is absent from the person before any sacraments are given. When Catechumens come to the Church seeking baptism, they do so at the prompting of the Holy Spirit.

It is similar to the situation Peter found at the house of Cornelius, who was a Pagan. When Peter preached to them, Cornelius and his family were filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. Then they were baptized.

The distinction between Actual Grace and Sanctifying Grace may be a better explanation re this one.

We can be certain that the Sacraments confer SG if received sincerely.

Part of the difficulty re graces of Baptism/Confirmation stems from the fact that histiorically they seem to have been a single, complete ritual (not separated out) given to adults on becoming Christian.
Nowadays there can be a considerable “time lag” between the two.

I would hesitate to say that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are not given at Baptism - perhaps someone can correct me on this with a source if I am wrong.

I believe the best angle on this is that Confirmation perfects, matures and “seals” what is already given nascently in Baptism. I do not think one gives anything “extra” than the other.

 

[Vico]

Catechism of the Catholic Church has:

1285 Baptism, the Eucharist, and the sacrament of Confirmation together constitute the “sacraments of Christian initiation,” whose unity must be safeguarded. It must be explained to the faithful that the reception of the sacrament of Confirmation is necessary for the completion of baptismal grace.89 For "by the sacrament of Confirmation, [the baptized] are more perfectly bound to the Church and are enriched with a special strength of the Holy Spirit. Hence they are, as true witnesses of Christ, more strictly obliged to spread and defend the faith by word and deed."90

1302 It is evident from its celebration that the effect of the sacrament of Confirmation is the special outpouring of the Holy Spirit as once granted to the apostles on the day of Pentecost.

1303 From this fact, Confirmation brings an increase and deepening of baptismal grace:

• it roots us more deeply in the divine filiation which makes us cry, “Abba! Father!”;117
• it unites us more firmly to Christ;
• it increases the gifts of the Holy Spirit in us;
• it renders our bond with the Church more perfect;118
• it gives us a special strength of the Holy Spirit to spread and defend the faith by word and action as true witnesses of Christ, to confess the name of Christ boldly, and never to be ashamed of the Cross:119

Recall then that you have received the spiritual seal, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of right judgment and courage, the spirit of knowledge and reverence, the spirit of holy fear in God’s presence. Guard what you have received. God the Father has marked you with his sign; Christ the Lord has confirmed you and has placed his pledge, the Spirit, in your hearts.120

 

[DebChris]

We also need to be careful from implying the Spirit is absent from the person before any sacraments are given. When Catechumens come to the Church seeking baptism, they do so at the prompting of the Holy Spirit.

It is similar to the situation Peter found at the house of Cornelius, who was a Pagan. When Peter preached to them, Cornelius and his family were filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. Then they were baptized.

The Sacraments open us to the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Is it possible that a person might have the Holy Spirit before receiving the Sacraments? Absolutely. The Sacraments were instituted by Christ, yet we see examples throughout the Old Testament of individuals filled with Holy Spirit in order to fulfil a particular purpose. As we move into the New Testament, we find God’s promise that John will be filled with the Holy Spirit while still in the womb (Luke 1:15). This promise is fulfilled during Mary’s visit to Elizabeth (Luke1:41-44).

Baptism and Confirmation are called Sacraments of initiation for a reason. They bring us into the Body of Christ. Within the Body of Christ, within the community of believers, we continue to grow in faith and knowledge of God.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

The Sacraments open us to the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Is it possible that a person might have the Holy Spirit before receiving the Sacraments? Absolutely. The Sacraments were instituted by Christ, yet we see examples throughout the Old Testament of individuals filled with Holy Spirit in order to fulfil a particular purpose. As we move into the New Testament, we find God’s promise that John will be filled with the Holy Spirit while still in the womb (Luke 1:15). This promise is fulfilled during Mary’s visit to Elizabeth (Luke1:41-44).

Baptism and Confirmation are called Sacraments of initiation for a reason. They bring us into the Body of Christ. Within the Body of Christ, within the community of believers, we continue to grow in faith and knowledge of God.

DC I agree with you though we must be careful when interpretting the words “Holy Spirit” in the Old Testament because they had no concept of the 3rd Person. Often the phrase means little more than what I mentioned above, namely “actual grace.”

Actual grace is a “one time only gift” from God and by no means can be identified with the in-dwelling presence of God (i.e. Sanctifying Grace).

However, as you suggest, it is the Church not God that is limited to the Sacraments. And ritual Circumcision in OT times is regarded by good authority to have remitted original sin and imparted sanctifying grace.

 

[GodHeals]

And ritual Circumcision in OT times is regarded by good authority to have remitted original sin and imparted sanctifying grace…

How did you come to this conclusion? Please send me info where you found it re the above.

Also, I heard when we fall (choosing mortal sin, instead of choosing God) from sanctifying grace (we are out of the state of grace?), we need to rely on actual grace to get us back in right relationship to God in order to receive sanctifying grace. So we can receive Actual grace more than one time. Right?

Also, i wonder if the sanctifying grace picks up where it left off in make us holy in another particular area of life… a side thought!

Lastly, can we lose the seal of the Holy Spirit? I have heard it is an indelible? mark. Then if we go to hell, we die with the Holy Spirit in us? That wouldn’t make sense… so what is an indelible mark or seal, if not really either of those. Maybe there is a better word. I am not sure what scripture or the Church says, i think i have read SEALED.

Thanks for your help!
Brian

 

[Vico]

How did you come to this conclusion? Please send me info where you found it re the above.

Also, I heard when we fall (choosing mortal sin, instead of choosing God) from sanctifying grace (we are out of the state of grace?), we need to rely on actual grace to get us back in right relationship to God in order to receive sanctifying grace. So we can receive Actual grace more than one time. Right?

Also, i wonder if the sanctifying grace picks up where it left off in make us holy in another particular area of life… a side thought!

Lastly, can we lose the seal of the Holy Spirit? I have heard it is an indelible? mark. Then if we go to hell, we die with the Holy Spirit in us? That wouldn’t make sense… so what is an indelible mark or seal, if not really either of those. Maybe there is a better word. I am not sure what scripture or the Church says, i think i have read SEALED.

Thanks for your help!
Brian

*And do not grieve the Holy Ghost of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. (Ephesians 4:30)

*From Baltimore Catechism No. 4 *149 Q. Why can we not receive Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders more than once?
A. We cannot receive Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders more than once, because they imprint a character in the soul. “A character.” It is a spiritual character, and remains forever, so that whether the person is in Heaven or Hell this mark will be seen. It will show that those having it were Christians, who received Baptism, Confirmation, or Holy Orders. If they are in Heaven, these characters will shine out to their honor, and will show how well they used the grace God gave them. If they are in Hell, these characters will be to their disgrace, and show how many gifts and graces God bestowed upon them, and how shamefully they abused all.

*150 Q. What is the character which these Sacraments imprint in the soul?
A. The character which these Sacraments imprint in the soul is a spiritual mark which remains forever.

*151 Q. Does this character remain in the soul even after death?
A. This character remains in the soul even after death: for the honor and glory of those who are saved; for the shame and punishment of those who are lost.
Modern Catholic Dictionary has for Sacramental Grace: The grace conferred by the valid and fruitful reception of the sacraments. It may be one or more of several kinds:

1. sanctifying grace is communicated in baptism, penance and in anointing of the sick when needed;
2. sanctifying grace is always increased when a sacrament is received in the state of grace;
3. actual grace is given by all the sacraments, either actually at the time of reception or also by title as a person needs divine help;
4. the sacramental character is indelibly imprinted on the soul in baptism, confirmation, and the priesthood; and
5. a distinctive sacramental grace is imparted by each of the seven sacraments, corresponding to their respective purpose in the supernatural life of the soul.
   And for Actual Grace:Temporary supernatural intervention by God to enlighten the mind or strengthen the will to perform supernatural actions that lead to heaven. Actual grace is therefore a transient divine assistance to enable man to obtain, retain, or grow in supernatural grace and the life of God.

 

[DebChris]

DC I agree with you though we must be careful when interpretting the words “Holy Spirit” in the Old Testament because they had no concept of the 3rd Person. Often the phrase means little more than what I mentioned above, namely “actual grace.”

Actual grace is a “one time only gift” from God and by no means can be identified with the in-dwelling presence of God (i.e. Sanctifying Grace).

However, as you suggest, it is the Church not God that is limited to the Sacraments. And ritual Circumcision in OT times is regarded by good authority to have remitted original sin and imparted sanctifying grace.

The Trinity is revealed during the Baptism of Jesus Christ in the Jordan.
And when Jesus had been baptized, just as he came up from the water, suddenly the heavens were opened to him and he saw the Spirit of God descending upon him like a dove and alighting upon him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, the Beloved, with whom I am well pleased.[Matthew 3:16-17].
Just as the Son is co-eternal with the Father, so is the Holy Spirit.

When John preached, he pointed to Jesus as the one who would baptize with the Holy Spirit. The Church was born at Pentecost when the Apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit “and began to speak in other languages, as the Spirit gave them ability.” (Acts 2:4).

 

[Blue_Horizon]

The Trinity is revealed during the Baptism of Jesus Christ in the Jordan.
And when Jesus had been baptized, just as he came up from the water, suddenly the heavens were opened to him and he saw the Spirit of God descending upon him like a dove and alighting upon him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, the Beloved, with whom I am well pleased.[Matthew 3:16-17].
Just as the Son is co-eternal with the Father, so is the Holy Spirit.

When John preached, he pointed to Jesus as the one who would baptize with the Holy Spirit. The Church was born at Pentecost when the Apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit “and began to speak in other languages, as the Spirit gave them ability.” (Acts 2:4).

Okkkkayyyy… that seems a bit of a non-sequitor .
No probs with what you say but why quote me? .