Receiving Jesus in the Eucharist

[Sy_Noe]

Yeah. Well buddy. You’ve taken this analogy a bit too far. I mean Jesus didn’t come down and claim to be the world’s pumpkin pie. Or the frosting on top. Or whatever. I mean He said He was the bread of life. So yeah. My little 5 minute idea will fall apart the minute we start getting too deep on it. It was just a nudge. Just a sort of explanation that only took a second to fling. If you want deep stuff you’ll need to give me a bit more time.

But I don’t think we need that. I think you’re a smart guy. I think you know it’s rude to storm out of something. And then expect to just storm back. With no consequences. Even if you might be welcome. By everyone. So that’s about it.

Peace Sy. Keep thinking. And don’t eat all the pie. Share it a bit.

-Trident

I understand and that can be a problem when we go around flinging. I do try to wear my thinking cap along my lifelong faith journey as I seek the ultimate truth in God. I figure God gave it to me for a reason. I think you’re a smart guy too though. And indeed peace, Trident, along yours. Oh btw I prefer traditional pumpkin pie with whipped cream atop. But most of my other family prefer a chiffon-type pumpkin pie with the cream folded in. Some others who might be there are not of my family, and they might actually prefer apple. But I’m sure they all will be welcomed to pie who wants it! And indeed if any want some of the kind I like best, I will share! God bless you.

 

[Trident_H]

I understand and that can be a problem when we go around flinging. I do try to wear my thinking cap along my lifelong faith journey as I seek the ultimate truth in God. I figure God gave it to me for a reason. I think you’re a smart guy too though. And indeed peace, Trident, along yours. Oh btw I prefer traditional pumpkin pie with whipped cream atop. But most of my other family prefer a chiffon-type pumpkin pie with the cream folded in. Some others who might be there are not of my family, and they might actually prefer apple. But I’m sure they all will be welcomed to pie who wants it! And indeed if any want some of the kind I like best, I will share! God bless you.

Thanks Sy. And I mean now I’m in the mood for pie. The whipped cream did it. That was the final image. So now look what you’ve done here.

Back at you.

 

[Nita]

So being aware of what the Catholic Church says is grave and could result in mortal sin is enough to truly have full knowledge even if they do not believe it and so do not know it in their heart, mind and intellect, or deep within their soul? But being aware of something else the Catholic Church says is not enough to know? The definition of “know” seems to be a tricky thing to, well, know.

Are we talking about someone who knows/believes that the Catholic Church is the Church established by Jesus and has the power as described in Mt. 16 - that whatever this Church binds and looses on earth will be bound and loosed in heaven?

Or, are we talking about someone who does not yet know/believe that the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus established in Mt. 16?

 

[Sy_Noe]

Are we talking about someone who knows/believes that the Catholic Church is the Church established by Jesus and has the power as described in Mt. 16 - that whatever this Church binds and looses on earth will be bound and loosed in heaven?

Or, are we talking about someone who does not yet know/believe that the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus established in Mt. 16?

Well I might be wrong in my thinking but I’m thinking, wouldn’t it be a given if someone knows the CC claims to still be the one established, and they believe it, that they would believe what else they are aware of the CC saying? But a person can be properly catechized, told what they must believe, know what the CC says, but not believe it. At some point it would seem to me there must be allowance for faith and belief in all of this. And for only our Creator to know how his child ticks. That’s why I have difficulty with the CC saying who could not be saved and who knows what in their hearts and minds and soul about grave matter and mortal sin. No matter how much they are aware of what they’ve read.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Thanks Sy. And I mean now I’m in the mood for pie. The whipped cream did it. That was the final image. So now look what you’ve done here.

Back at you.

Well then I probably shouldn’t say I had pumpkin ice cream tonight for dessert before I had my main meal.

 

[Trident_H]

Well then I probably shouldn’t say I had pumpkin ice cream tonight for dessert before I had my main meal.

You didn’t! That’s just not fair. At all.

 

[Mary_Ellen]

Full knowledge/grave matter. I know there is a difference between mortal and venial sin but I agree with our recent pope’s who have said that one of the greatest losses of the modern world is our loss of the sense of sin.

I think back to Adam & Eve. Eating a piece of fruit certainly does not seem to be grave matter but boy, oh, boy, disobeying God’s command regarding that particular fruit broke the relationship between man and God to such an extent that Jesus had to come and die and rise again in order to breach the void that was opened. Adam and Eve had full knowledge as they had heard God quite clearly regarding the sin they committed. Obviously it was grave matter (examine the consequence) but they choose to listen to the deceiving serpent and justify their action. As for agreeing with God’s word, or the law involved in this case, Adam and Eve also felt justified in disagreeing with the reasonableness of God’s command.

The ability for man to justify himself with regards to God’s law is great. The Church has the ability, even the responsibility, to define laws for us to live by. While non-Catholics and all those outside the Church may choose to ignore these laws we who are in the Church must obey. Those outside the Church should - at the very least - respect the laws the Church sets regarding Her own worship/liturgy. That includes our laws regarding reception of Communion.

OP,
You certainly have full knowledge as you know what the Church teaches. St. Paul wrote that to receive His Body unworthily is mortally sinful so it this involves grave matter. Agreeing or disagreeing with the Church regarding this matter doesn’t come into play.

 

[smead2942]

So why wouldn’t the OCAC person (according to the Catholic Church) who is aware of what the Catholic Church teaches about grave matters and why, but who does not believe it, not be able to receive? If they don’t believe an act is a mortal sin, then they don’t fully know that it is according to the Catholic Church, so they would not be guilty of being in a state of mortal sin and therefore would not be receiving unworthily. Assuming of course that they did believe in transubstantiation, fasted, and were not aware of being excommunicated.

This reeks of moral relativism.

If a Catholic knows what the Church teaches about grave matters and remains willfully disobedient/disbelieving, he or she is excommunicated latae sentinentae, or “immediately”, without an official bull of excommunication from a bishop.

Just because someone does not believe the act is a mortal sin does not lessen the blow it does to their soul. If I know that the Church calls fornication is a mortal sin, yet don’t “believe” that it is, then it is just as evil. Moral truth is objective and applies to everyone, regardless of whether they believe the entirety of the Christian faith or not.

So yes, it would be a profanation of the Body and Blood of the Lord to receive Holy Communion while knowingly disbelieving in Church teaching. Unfortunately, that also applies to the 95% of Catholics that attend Mass without living a Catholic lifestyle, and those go to don’t confession on a regular basis.

THIS is why I wish our Successors to the Apostles would actually teach the faith and admonish those who fail to. The confusion is quite literally drawing souls to Hell.

 

[Nita]

Well I might be wrong in my thinking but I’m thinking, wouldn’t it be a given if someone knows the CC claims to still be the one established, and they believe it, that they would believe what else they are aware of the CC saying?

I would also think so.

But a person can be properly catechized, told what they must believe, know what the CC says, but not believe it.

In that instance, I would say that this person does not believe or accept that the Catholic Church is the true Church and that her teachings are true and binding.
If they do believe the Church is the true Church and that she cannot teach error (eg.“gates of hell shall not prevail” Mt. 16:18-19), then to reject a teaching would be to reject a truth.
Jesus told His Church leaders, “Whoever rejects you, rejects Me.” (cf Luke 10:16)
And in connection with that:
John 12:47-48* If any one hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge;** the word that I have spoken will be his judge *on the last day.

One can believe and accept something as true, even tho they don’t like it, and/or understand it, and/or their reasoning leads to a contrary opinion. One then makes an act of faith: “I believe it because it is Our Lord’s Church that teaches it”.
It is similar to the apostles after Our Lord’s teaching on the Eucharist in John 6. They probably didn’t understand Our Lord’s words any better than the disciples who rejected it and left Jesus. The apostles response when Jesus asked them if they also wanted to leave essentially means “Because it is You who say it, we believe it”. (my paraphrase)

St. Anselm said: “For I do not seek to understand in order to believe, but I believe in order to understand. For I believe this: unless I believe, I will not understand.”

What I personally did when I had trouble with seeing the truth of a doctrine or moral teaching was to accept it in faith – and then kept praying like the dickens for some understanding!

At some point it would seem to me there must be allowance for faith and belief in all of this. And for only our Creator to know how his child ticks.

Absolutely. And I can’t believe how patient and gracious Our Lord is. At least, He was with me.

That’s why I have difficulty with the CC saying who could not be saved and who knows what in their hearts and minds and soul about grave matter and mortal sin. No matter how much they are aware of what they’ve read.

The Catholic Church teaches that anyone who dies in the state of mortal sin cannot enter heaven. She also teaches that only God knows who is in the state of mortal sin.

 

[Sy_Noe]

This reeks of moral relativism.

If a Catholic knows what the Church teaches about grave matters and remains willfully disobedient/disbelieving, he or she is excommunicated latae sentinentae, or “immediately”, without an official bull of excommunication from a bishop.

Just because someone does not believe the act is a mortal sin does not lessen the blow it does to their soul. If I know that the Church calls fornication is a mortal sin, yet don’t “believe” that it is, then it is just as evil. Moral truth is objective and applies to everyone, regardless of whether they believe the entirety of the Christian faith or not.

So yes, it would be a profanation of the Body and Blood of the Lord to receive Holy Communion while knowingly disbelieving in Church teaching. Unfortunately, that also applies to the 95% of Catholics that attend Mass without living a Catholic lifestyle, and those go to don’t confession on a regular basis.

THIS is why I wish our Successors to the Apostles would actually teach the faith and admonish those who fail to. The confusion is quite literally drawing souls to Hell.

It doesn’t reek to me. But then it doesn’t leave me with a bad odor when finite, limited humans realize they can not know anything about God with any degree of certainty, without faith and belief. We can believe and think we know but that’s a far cry from knowing for sure. Not even the most devout Catholics can believe they know without faith. But human understanding of the things of God are not set in concrete to me but rather understandings can evolve and grow. So if you think hurling a stone of “moral relativism” at me does anything to me, it doesn’t harm me in the least. But peace and many blessings!