Receiving the Eucharist the reverant way....

[japhy]

They don’t follow the norm in the USA per their own comments - they demand to kneel no matter what.

The Church crystal-clearly permits them to kneel! Here is a more gracious explanation:Though the “normal” posture for receiving Communion in the United States is standing, the Holy See accepted this only “with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel may not be denied Holy Communion on these grounds” (Notitiae, Nov-Dec 2002, Prot. no. 1322/02/L; see AB Dec 2002-Jan 2003, p 15).

…

Before the bishops voted on the proposed adaptation of [GIRM] §160, a bishop questioned the meaning of the term “norm”. The chairman of the Bishops Committee on the Liturgy (Archbishop Oscar Lipscomb) said that “norm” is a descriptive term meaning the usual or standard practice, not a legal term. With this clarification, the bishops voted to accept the BCL’s wording of the adaptation.

Since then, however, some bishops and liturgists are interpreting “norm” as implying that standing is legally obligatory. This is not the case.

 

[benedictgal]

They don’t follow the norm in the USA per their own comments - they demand to kneel no matter what.

Kneeling is the universal norm. Standing was granted via petition by the national episcopal conferences and this was granted recognitio by Rome.

You cannot and should not fault nor demean someone because he simply chooses to use the universal norm of kneeling. Furthermore, as japhy has pointed out, Rome has provided substantial documentatin affirming this matter.

Incidentally, Rome has indicated (and, this even shows up in the US GIRM) that if you are to receive Holy Communion standing, then reverence to our Lord should be shown. Why would the Church insert that provision?

You are already paying the Lord due reverence by kneeling. Therefore, you don’t have to bow your head (or, in some cases, genuflect). But, if you choose to stand, then you should show reverence to the Lord whom you are about to receive.

 

[lizaanne]

They don’t follow the norm in the USA per their own comments - they demand to kneel no matter what.

I personally don’t DEMAND anything. I PREFER to kneel, and fortunately at our parish we do. I’ve never seen anyone receive standing, though I am sure our priests would accommodate someone if they chose to stand up at the communion rail. We receive kneeling, and on the tongue (only option as it is via intinction).

But when it comes to all the angst, I just don’t understand why so many people have such an issue with kneeling in general! I GET the whole norm thing, yes yes yes, the Bishops have said the norm is to stand, but that does not mean that we must ONLY stand.

I’m just concerned that if the Bishops said all must (who can) kneel, that there would be a major uprising by those who are physically able to kneel but for whatever reason have issues with it. Same with receiving on the tongue - even if the Bishops said the indult is revoked, I think there would be major upheaval, which is what I don’t understand. Why is it so blasted difficult for people to do this?

~Liza

 

[benedictgal]

I personally don’t DEMAND anything. I PREFER to kneel, and fortunately at our parish we do. I’ve never seen anyone receive standing, though I am sure our priests would accommodate someone if they chose to stand up at the communion rail. We receive kneeling, and on the tongue (only option as it is via intinction).

But when it comes to all the angst, I just don’t understand why so many people have such an issue with kneeling in general! I GET the whole norm thing, yes yes yes, the Bishops have said the norm is to stand, but that does not mean that we must ONLY stand.

I’m just concerned that if the Bishops said all must (who can) kneel, that there would be a major uprising by those who are physically able to kneel but for whatever reason have issues with it. Same with receiving on the tongue - even if the Bishops said the indult is revoked, I think there would be major upheaval, which is what I don’t understand. Why is it so blasted difficult for people to do this?

~Liza

Now, even though the Holy Father has made his stance on the posture people are to use when receiveing Holy Communion from him, there was an elderly woman using a cane who could not kneel. She approached him for Holy Cmmunion and he gave her communion on the tongue. Someone in a wheelchair also received Our Lord from the Holy Father. The communicant received on the tongue.

 

[lizaanne]

Now, even though the Holy Father has made his stance on the posture people are to use when receiveing Holy Communion from him, there was an elderly woman using a cane who could not kneel. She approached him for Holy Cmmunion and he gave her communion on the tongue. Someone in a wheelchair also received Our Lord from the Holy Father. The communicant received on the tongue.

Did I not say, repeatedly, that I am not talking about those who have physical limitations??? Why does this keep coming up? It’s a non-issue. These are NOT the people we are talking about here!!

Sheesh!!!

~Liza

 

[water]

But when it comes to all the angst, I just don’t understand why so many people have such an issue with kneeling in general! I GET the whole norm thing, yes yes yes, the Bishops have said the norm is to stand, but that does not mean that we must ONLY stand.

~Liza

I don’t know any other reasons why people have issue with kneeling in general. From what I read on some posts, not all, that some people got upset because their priest told them not to kneel. – This being upset toward a priest will defeat the entire purpose of one trying to show reverant to Jesus.

 

[Rickwood]

The Church crystal-clearly permits them to kneel! Here is a more gracious explanation:Though the “normal” posture for receiving Communion in the United States is standing, the Holy See accepted this only “with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel may not be denied Holy Communion on these grounds” (Notitiae, Nov-Dec 2002, Prot. no. 1322/02/L; see AB Dec 2002-Jan 2003, p 15).

…

Before the bishops voted on the proposed adaptation of [GIRM] §160, a bishop questioned the meaning of the term “norm”. The chairman of the Bishops Committee on the Liturgy (Archbishop Oscar Lipscomb) said that “norm” is a descriptive term meaning the usual or standard practice, not a legal term. With this clarification, the bishops voted to accept the BCL’s wording of the adaptation.

Since then, however, some bishops and liturgists are interpreting “norm” as implying that standing is legally obligatory. This is not the case.

We are all very well aware that one cannot be denied communion due to one’s posture. That has been beaten to death. Yet the norm of standing in the USA still exists. One should receive catchesis outside of Mass from their pastors on the importance of the norm. One would hope the catechesis would make a difference. From what I read and heard, said catechesis is never talked about by those that demand to kneel.

I admire those who follow the norm even though standing might not be their first choice. That is a very clear sign on placing one’s obedience ahead of one’s ego. Not at all an easy thing.

I feel sorry for those who attack the Church’s guidance and suggest their personal favorites of kneeling/communion on tongue are somehow intrinsically superior. Considering the norm of standing and the indult of CIH are both allowed by the Church in the USA, their comments speak volumes.

I feel sorry for those who feel they need to put on a show and make their point by kneeling. It’s difficult to watch, so I try not to.

Imagine for a moment if things were reversed. The very people who ignore the norm now would no doubt be most judgmental of those that did if things were reversed. Imagine if things were reversed and those that wished to stand created the same uproar as those that demand to kneel. Their condemnation by the latter would have been swift with extreme prejudice.

 

[lizaanne]

I feel sorry for those who feel they need to put on a show and make their point by kneeling. It’s difficult to watch sometimes.

Well thank goodness that I attend a parish where we ALL kneel, lest I offend you with my “show”.

Give me a break. Since when is showing reverence and respect to God putting on a show? I’m so sorry you are obviously so offendend by such an action.

~Liza

 

[MrS]

We are all very well aware that one cannot be denied communion due to one’s posture. That has been beaten to death. Yet the norm of standing in the USA still exists.

I admire those who follow the norm even though standing might not be their first choice. That is a very clear sign on placing one’s obedience ahead of one’s ego. Not at all an easy thing.

I feel sorry for those who attack the Church’s guidance and suggest their personal favorites of kneeling/communion on tongue are somehow intrinsically superior. Considering the norm of standing and the indult of CIH are both allowed by the Church in the USA, their comments speak volumes.

I feel sorry for those who feel they need to put on a show and make their **(I thught it was the Church which allowed kneeling )**point by kneeling. It’s difficult to watch sometimes.

Imagine for a moment if things were reversed. The very people who ignore the norm now would no doubt be most judgmental of those that if things were reversed. Imagine if things were reversed and those that wished to stand created the same uproar as those that demand to kneel. Their condemnation by the latter would have been swift with extreme prejudice.

I think you place too much emphasis on the word “norm”. If you think it means what is expected… then I suggest you start lobbying for ad orientum, altar rails, etc. After all, those things and more were the intention for the OF. But other “practices” in many places have become the “norm”.

Additionally… if you were to list the changes since (not because of ) Vat II, which you consider norms in the liturgy, my guess is that many of your suggestions can be shown to have started as an abuse.

Thank God, that God is God
Thank God that Benedict is the Pope.

 

[Rickwood]

Well thank goodness that I attend a parish where we ALL kneel, lest I offend you with my “show”.

Give me a break. Since when is showing reverence and respect to God putting on a show? I’m so sorry you are obviously so offendend by such an action.

~Liza

That’s the fallacy of your comments. You are implying that bowing and receiving while standing are not reverent and that is not accurate.

I suppose in the end that’s what blows me away. The Church in the USA sets a norm of bowing/standing yet some of the faithful believe they know better than their bishops. They feel their choice of kneeling is somehow superior. I don’t understand that.

 

[lizaanne]

That’s the fallacy of your comments. You are implying that bowing and receiving while standing are not reverent and that is not accurate.

I suppose in the end that’s what blows me away. The Church in the USA sets a norm of bowing/standing yet some of the faithful believe they know better than their bishops. They feel their choice of kneeling is somehow superior. I don’t understand that.

I’m not the one who accused those who kneel of putting on a show!!! I believe that was you.

~Liza

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

If you think receiving the Eucharist standing up to Him instead kneeling down and on our unworthy hands instead of our tongues, then please reply why you thinks so. Remember, this is Jesus Christ himself we are privleged to receive!!!

This goes into the grey area of judging souls by putting the argument as you write it. Being a Eucharistic Minister for many years, I do not see one way as being more reverent than another. Both are acceptable and doing one way does not mean the other is irreverent. That would be pre-judging a person which EMs are not supposed to do. Both ways are reverent and acceptable.

 

[EasterJoy]

I’m not the one who accused those who kneel of putting on a show!!! I believe that was you.

~Liza

I really don’t see the issue here. Why is it so doggone difficult for someone to kneel before God? (And don’t get going on those who can’t physically kneel, I’m not talking about that, and you know it.)

It’s pride, that’s what it is. When we are proud we stand, when we are humble we kneel and bow our heads. Posture and body position IS important and DOES mean things.

There will come a day that every knee shall bend. Why not start now?

~Liza

OK, you didn’t say those who kneel are putting on a show. You wrote that those who stand rather than kneel suffer from pride, while those who are humble kneel.

If it were inherently proud to stand, then the priest would offer the entire Sacrifice of the Mass from his knees, bet on that.

 

[japhy]

Yet the norm of standing in the USA still exists. One should receive catchesis outside of Mass from their pastors on the importance of the norm.

It’s not a legal norm, as has been mentioned already, and the GIRM says the catechesis is on the “reasons” for this particular norm, not merely its “importance”. So, please, could someone tell me why the USCCB decided on “standing”? Is it something intrinsic to the USA?

 

[benedictgal]

This goes into the grey area of judging souls by putting the argument as you write it. Being a Eucharistic Minister for many years, I do not see one way as being more reverent than another. Both are acceptable and doing one way does not mean the other is irreverent. That would be pre-judging a person which EMs are not supposed to do. Both ways are reverent and acceptable.

First of all, unless you are a bishop or a priest, you are not a Eucharistic Minister. You are an Extraordniary Minister of Holy Communion. since you do not confect the Sacrament

The issue with your post is that the real issue involves employing EMHC when there is a genuine need and not merely to shorten the dstribution of Holy Communion, let alone teh Mass time. Using EMHCs are the exception, rather than the rule.

 

[lizaanne]

If it were inherently proud to stand, then the priest would offer the entire Sacrifice of the Mass from his knees, bet on that.

I’m sure there are some who would if they could, not to mention falling on their face in awe in the presence of God.

And no - I did not say this:

You wrote that those who stand rather than kneel suffer from pride, while those who are humble kneel.

I said that the postures of standing and kneeling have the inherent connotation of pride or humility - in general. I said that I don’t understand why those who do not kneel have such major issue with those who do and consider it a “holier than thou” “show” of false piety.

Please read and understand clearly - words are important and they mean things as they are written.

~Liza

 

[Rickwood]

It’s not a legal norm, as has been mentioned already, and the GIRM says the catechesis is on the “reasons” for this particular norm, not merely its “importance”. So, please, could someone tell me why the USCCB decided on “standing”? Is it something intrinsic to the USA?

“Prot. N. 47/03/L” through Mons. Mario Mariniin in no way viciates GIRM #160 in the USA.

To explain the reasons for the norm would necessitate explaining the importance of the norm. That goes without saying.

My question remains. Why do some Catholics in the USA feel the need to ignore this norm for another sign of reverence/posture that they personally feel is more reverent? What exactly makes them feel that kneeling is more reverent than standing/bowing?

Do they not trust the Church? Is their distrust limited to the USCCB segment of the Church? Do they really feel the Church would approve a norm that is in any way inferior to what their own personal taste dictates?

Would they feel the same if kneeling was the norm, yet some insisted to stand and bow?

 

[benedictgal]

“Prot. N. 47/03/L” through Mons. Mario Mariniin in no way viciates GIRM #160 in the USA.

To explain the reasons for the norm would necessitate explaining the importance of the norm. That goes without saying.

My question remains. Why do some Catholics in the USA feel the need to ignore this norm for another sign of reverence/posture that they personally feel is more reverent? What exactly makes them feel that kneeling is more reverent than standing/bowing?

Do they not trust the Church? Is their distrust limited to the USCCB segment of the Church? Do they really feel the Church would approve a norm that is in any way inferior to what their own personal taste dictates?

Would they feel the same if kneeling was the norm, yet some insisted to stand and bow?

First of all, what are you basing your comments on? While the norm is standing, people have the right to exercise the universal norm of kneeling. Are you saying then, that, next time Pope Benedict is in the United States celebrating Mass, he can’t have the communicants receiving Holy Communion from him kneel and receive on the tongue?

More often that not, when it comes to posture, the Holy See will rule on the side if kneeling, especially if priests and bishops are of the mistaken notion that the communicants are being disobedient by simply choosing to kneel to receive Holy Communion.

 

[SnorterLuster]

Standing or kneeling? I only receive our Lord kneeling. I cannot or maybe even will not receive our Lord without humbling myself in His presence. I recently had to attend a N.O. Mass while on vacation. The Mass was reverent and done according to the rules as near as I could tell. When it came time to go for Holy Communion, I stayed in the pew. There were no provisions for kneeling so I made a Spiritual Communion. If the Church requires me to stand to receive Communion in order to be part of a common posture, then I will not receive.

Someone asked earlier, why did the bishops want the indult of standing and I have always wondered the same thing. Was it done to to show more respect to Our Lord, or was it done to speed up the “assembly line” and get the whole business done with in the shortest possible time.

 

[lizaanne]

Someone asked earlier, why did the bishops want the indult of standing and I have always wondered the same thing. Was it done to to show more respect to Our Lord, or was it done to speed up the “assembly line” and get the whole business done with in the shortest possible time.

~Liza