Receiving the Eucharist the reverant way....

[Rickwood]

“***The lack of obedience to the Church ***displayed by the demand to kneel folks absolutely crushes any credibility they might otherwise have when they talk about respect, reverence, etc.”

Kneeling is everywhere a licit position, as stated by the competent authority to interpret the norm. Why is this a problem for anyone? I can kneel, you can stand. That’s it. There is nothing to argue about for thirty pages in a week.
**
Why does it disturb some people so much that someone else might kneel to receive? I really don’t understand this.**

Largely because such people make inaccurate comments about how much more reverent kneeling is than bowing/standing – as if they actually knew more than the Church does.

 

[Aramis]

Kneeling is the universal norm. Standing was granted via petition by the national episcopal conferences and this was granted recognitio by Rome.

No, Kneeling for communion is not UNIVERSAL; it’s definitely the Roman Church worldwide norm, but not normative for the majority of the other 22 Churches Sui Iuris that Comprise the Catholic Church, united under the pope.

Specifically, the instructions you quote are for the Roman Church ALONE, not the rest of the 23 Churches Sui Iuris of the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Most (if not all) of the Eastern Catholics receive standing, not by indult, but by ancient Tradition. A tradition the Roman church abandoned between 400 and 1200… but the East did not.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

No, Kneeling for communion is not UNIVERSAL; it’s definitely the Roman Church worldwide norm, but not normative for the majority of the other 22 Churches Sui Iuris that Comprise the Catholic Church, united under the pope.
,.

Actually it isn’t— standing or kneeling as per The instructions of the local conference is the universal norm according to the Roman Missal.

Lux

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

"NW:

Why does it disturb some people so much that someone else might kneel to receive? I really don’t understand this.

Largely because such people make inaccurate comments about how much more reverent kneeling is than bowing/standing – as if they actually knew more than the Church does.

Also because they misquote the universal norm, and claim that kneeling is the norm in the US, rather than the actuality of standing being the norm, and permission granted to kneel.

And also because they feel that it is still the best choice, even if the priest requests that they receive as does the community and do nor distract others and/or disrupt the Communion procession by kneeling or genuflecting when everyone else is standing or processing.

I have no problem with kneeling, if provisions of some sort are made, and the Priest feels it is not too disruptive, or a tripping hazard. (which BTW is the main reason to discourage kneeling if there are no provisions)

Lux

 

[SnorterLuster]

You’re not answering the question so I will try one final time. What makes you believe that kneeling is more reverent or “better?” than bowing/standing – particularly since bowing/standing is a Church norm for the USA?

Maybe this from Zenit will help your understanding. I will emphasize the parts I think are important.

The master of papal liturgical ceremonies said receiving Communion on the tongue, “without taking anything away from the other [form], better highlights the truth of the real presence in the Eucharist, helps the devotion of the faithful, and introduces more easily the sense of mystery. Aspects which, in our times, pastorally speaking, it is urgent to highlight and recover.”

zenit.org/article-23028?l=english

Read the whole article. The Vatican recognizes that practice of standing and receiving in the past few years as damaged the reverence at the time of Holy Communion.

So, did you kneel to propose to your wife?

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

re- So, did you kneel to propose to your wife?

Did you read post # 109?

Lux

 

[MrS]

Standing or kneeling? I only receive our Lord kneeling. I cannot or maybe even will not receive our Lord without humbling myself in His presence. I recently had to attend a N.O. Mass while on vacation. The Mass was reverent and done according to the rules as near as I could tell. When it came time to go for Holy Communion, I stayed in the pew. There were no provisions for kneeling so I made a Spiritual Communion. If the Church requires me to stand to receive Communion in order to be part of a common posture, then I will not receive.

Someone asked earlier, why did the bishops want the indult of standing and I have always wondered the same thing. Was it done to to show more respect to Our Lord, or was it done to speed up the “assembly line” and get the whole business done with in the shortest possible time.

three points :

[1] Please don’t say no to the Lord because of what others do.

[2] Thank you for recognizing that standing is an indult… a permission to deviate from the universal norm of kneeling.

[3] Why did the bishops do it? IMHO they caved - if not to protestantism, then at least to the protestand attitiude of a more horizontal service or liturgy.

.

 

[MrS]

Now, based on your logic, are you going to say that Pope Benedict is disobeying the USCCB if, at his next visit, he continues with his practice of having the communicants coming before him kneel in order to receive Our Lord? I would love for you to challenge him on that one.

Perhaps one of the proponents for standing will volunteer to be the one who “consuls” the rebel who kneels at that Mass. I would love to see that too.

After all this is America… so stand up American Catholics.

 

[MrS]

BG,

We’ve been through this many times. The universal norm is “standing or kneeling, according to the instructions of the local bishops’ conference” Please stop misleading

Lux

Where does it show that standing is the “universal” norm. It has already been shown that a “universal” norm is what is NORMal everywhere.

And that would be kneeling.

Standing is an indult granted to the US Bishops.

.

 

[ethelzguy]

I am amazed at how belligerent the “standing and receiving in the hand” group is becoming.

Not any moreso than the “receiving on the tongue while kneeling” crowd.

Receiving in the hand while standing is the norm in the US. But there will always be those who “have a point to make” by bringing attention to themselves.

 

[japhy]

Where does it show that standing is the “universal” norm. It has already been shown that a “universal” norm is what is NORMal everywhere. And that would be kneeling. Standing is an indult granted to the US Bishops.

“Indult” is a legal ecclesiastical term, and I don’t think there is any evidence that standing is actually permitted via indult.

Eucharisticum Mysterium n. 34/a says “In accordance with the custom of the Church, the faithful may receive communion either kneeling or standing. One or the other practice is to be chosen according to the norms laid down by the conference of bishops and in view of the various circumstances, above all the arrangement of the churches and the number of the communicants. The faithful should willingly follow the manner of reception indicated by the pastors so that communion may truly be a sign of familial union among those who share in the same table of the Lord.” Now, that is of course interpreted in light of the CDWDS’s 2001 or 2002 ruling on the matter, that in those conferences where standing was selected by the bishops, kneeling is still permitted; however, there is another side to that coin:

Redemptionis Sacramentum n. 91 says “In distributing Holy Communion it is to be remembered that ‘sacred ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who seek them in a reasonable manner, are rightly disposed, and are not prohibited by law from receiving them’. Hence any baptized Catholic who is not prevented by law must be admitted to Holy Communion. Therefore, it is not licit to deny Holy Communion to any of Christ’s faithful solely on the grounds, for example, that the person wishes to receive the Eucharist kneeling or standing.” In other words, the same leeway given to those who prefer to kneel where standing is the norm… is given to those who prefer to stand where kneeling is the norm.

There is no evidence that standing is permitted by “indult”.

 

[SnorterLuster]

re- So, did you kneel to propose to your wife?

Did you read post # 109?

Lux

Yes I did. Can you understand that I asked just a one sentence question. It can be answered yes or no. Somehow, you can read that one short sentence & come up with the following:

…

You asked if someone knelt to propose (I thought you were attempting to show kneeling as a more reverent posture–as it appears did others) Think what you want, until the question is answered it stands on its own. Likewise, a non answer stands on its own.

Why would you compare the posture to propose to that of receivingHC? How can you compare human love with worship?
Did I compare or did you compare?

Weren’t you also the misguided person who would refuse Christ, rather than receive in a posture not deemed correct by you? **I may be misguided, but I did not reject Christ. Read my post again–I made a Spiritual Communion.

** You obviously need to attempt to understand the difference between feelings and worship. There is a lot I need to understand better, but I do understand that feelings or emotions are part of worship.

 

[kristie_m]

I have no problem with kneeling, if provisions of some sort are made, and the Priest feels it is not too disruptive, or a tripping hazard. (which BTW is the main reason to discourage kneeling if there are no provisions)

Lux

Actually, I think this is an excellent idea. Most churches that I’ve been to have more than one communion line. Perhaps one of those could be designated for those who wish to kneel to receive. I know my church has a couple of portable kneelers that they use for weddings and such. I can’t imagine it would be that difficult to pull them out for use at a regular Mass.

(I can’t help but wonder though, if those who prefer to kneel would also be uncomfortable unless it was the priest, rather than an EMHC distributing communion in “their” line.)

 

[MrS]

Largely because such people make inaccurate comments about how much more reverent kneeling is than bowing/standing – as if they actually knew more than the Church does.

Actually there is a remarkable correlation between those who prefer to stand and their use of EM when EMHC should be used.

and

Those who prefer to kneel, and their “insistence” that correct terms are correct, and incorrect use of terms are both misleading and potenially determental to Catholicity.

 

[MrS]

Also because they misquote the universal norm, and claim that kneeling is the norm in the US, rather than the actuality of standing being the norm, and permission granted to kneel.

Hardly… you make it sound like kneeling was taken away, and then returned … it was never abrogated… only standing was added in the indult.

And also because they feel that it is still the best choice, even if the priest requests that they receive as does the community and do nor distract others and/or disrupt the Communion procession by kneeling or genuflecting when everyone else is standing or processing.

I have no problem with kneeling, if provisions of some sort are made, and the Priest feels it is not too disruptive, or a tripping hazard. (which BTW is the main reason to discourage kneeling if there are no provisions)

Perhaps… yet in nearly 150-200 Masses I attend each year where some stand and some kneel… I have NEVER seen anyone trip or even come close. Perhaps those who are standing behind the one kneeling, have their eyes open? and are aware and content with the choices we have?

Lux

 

[MrS]

"
There is no evidence that standing is permitted by “indult”.

You are most often well versed/researced in your posts.

So I will concede to your (name removed by moderator)ut… unless I or someone can reference the indult/no-indult.

 

[japhy]

This mentioning of “provisions” being made for people who wish to kneel is, I think, unfair; it sounds as if those who wish to receive kneeling need things to be “provided” for them, when, in reality, all they want is to be treated equally to those who desire to stand.

Talk of “provisions” makes it more about catering to an individual communicant’s needs, and I would bet most communicants who desire to receive kneeling would be disappointed if a pastor or other parishioner thought it was “all about them”.

 

[japhy]

You are most often well versed/researced in your posts. So I will concede to your (name removed by moderator)ut… unless I or someone can reference the indult/no-indult.

The first place I would suggest someone look is in the massive “Documents on the Liturgy” compendium that has nearly every document (including papal addresses and homilies!) on the liturgy from Sacrosanctum Concilium through 1979.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

This thread is closed. Thank you all.