Receivingthe Holy Spirit more than once? Muslim argument on the corruption of the Gospel

[MarcoPG]

Hello everyone,
I am sure we are all aware that in the gospels, people receive the Holy Spirit more than once. I would say it is a different strenght He gives us each time, not that we receive part of it, but part of the graces.

So we receive the Spirit at Baptism, at Confirmation (Seen in the first Pentecost) and the Apostles received the Holy Spirit (ordination) , still they had to wait until the Spirit would come down (Pentecost again).
Some time ago, I read an article about a Muslim, saying it can’t be right, since the Spirit has already come, so the Gospels at least on that point is a mess. Not to mention that there is no Hoyl Spirit, but this is another issue.

Would it be right to explain that Sacraments ae receiving the Spirit, the same Spirit, but like degrees, or a flower to blossom, or something like this? The Spirit is one, but in our spiritual live, He acts in a more full way as we grow in understanding and commitment.
How would you respond? Thank you

 

[TimothyH]

We don’t receive the Holy Spirit more than once.

Paul and Luke were charismatic. When they wrote about the Holy Spirit they were writing about outward manifestations of the Spirit - preaching boldly and speaking in tongues.

Peter, John and others were contemplative. When they write about the Holy Spirit they were writing about inner peace, joy and self-sacrificing love for all men.

Its a matter of reading the Bible in context and understanding the authors and the message they are trying to convey.

-Tim-

 

[MarcoPG]

Thank you Tim, but do you understand that it can be confusing, when a Muslim reads that Jesus breaths the Holy Spirit on them before he ascends, and then says to wait for the Holy Spirit to come?

That is the issue. How to show it is not more than once, but differently.

 

[TimothyH]

Thank you Tim, but do you understand that it can be confusing, when a Muslim reads that Jesus breaths the Holy Spirit on them before he ascends, and then says to wait for the Holy Spirit to come?

That is the issue. How to show it is not more than once, but differently.

I don’t know how to explain it to a Muslim other than to say exactly what I said. The various authors are talking about two different things. Even most Catholics don’t get it.

Jesus’ own baptism show us that the Holy Spirit dwells within us at Baptism whether we are charismatic prayer warrior/preachers or contemplative monks. Jesus was both - preaching boldly and withdrawing to the desert to pray.

These are my thoughts. If the Holy Spirit is active within us then we will do all of those things - speak out boldly, understand others who are not like us and treat them with dignity and respect, have inner peace and joy when the world is in a rage - all of these. For me at least, that is where I start. I can’t really speak of it unless I can first demonstrate it at a very basic level. People will be attracted like a moth to a flame if we can do that. This is just my own opinion.

-Tim-

 

[unstoppable_II]

So, what is the Muslim argument on the corruption of the Gospel?

 

[MarcoPG]

So, what is the Muslim argument on the corruption of the Gospel?

That we receive Baptism and it dwells in us, why does it come again at Pentecost, at ordination, and so on? It sounds to him like many episodes of a first coming of the Spirit, just compiled. So how do I show that the Spirit received by the Apostles in John 21 doesn’t go and come back when they receive Him at Pentecost?

 

[Kliska]

Please do correct me if this isn’t inline with RCC teaching, as this is coming from a protestant perspective, but there was a categorical difference between, say, the way the Holy Spirit worked in the OT and the way He works after Pentecost. In essence, they were breathed upon and worked upon in a way that filled the gap between the OT and Pentecost.

As has been said, we don’t receive the Holy Spirit more than once. In the life of a Christian, it is about how much of ourselves we give over the Spirit, thus when we are to be full or filled up with the Spirit, it’s not meaning we get “more of Him” (He is a Person, not just a power or substance, and if you get Him, you by default get all of Him), but rather He gets more of us. In Catholic teaching, you would be viewed as being strengthened over time by God’s grace to give more over to the Spirit through baptism, confirmation, etc…

 

[MarcoPG]

This spiritual strenght coming from the Spirit in Baptism, then Confirmation, Ordination also, is what i meant when I said the degrees of the Spirit.

Would it be a valid explanation?

 

[Vico]

That we receive Baptism and it dwells in us, why does it come again at Pentecost, at ordination, and so on? It sounds to him like many episodes of a first coming of the Spirit, just compiled. So how do I show that the Spirit received by the Apostles in John 21 doesn’t go and come back when they receive Him at Pentecost?

The worthy receive the Holy Spirit in each reception of every Holy Sacrament and specific gifts are given in connection with each one, in addition to sanctifying grace.

Modern Catholic Dictionary - Sacramental GraceThe grace conferred by the valid and fruitful reception of the sacraments. It may be one or more of several kinds:

1. sanctifying grace is communicated in baptism, penance and in anointing of the sick when needed;

1. sanctifying grace is always increased when a sacrament is received in the state of grace;
2. actual grace is given by all the sacraments, either actually at the time of reception or also by title as a person needs divine help;
3. the sacramental character is indelibly imprinted on the soul in baptism, confirmation, and the priesthood; and
4. a distinctive sacramental grace is imparted by each of the seven sacraments, corresponding to their respective purpose in the supernatural life of the soul.

 

[Kliska]

This spiritual strenght coming from the Spirit in Baptism, then Confirmation, Ordination also, is what i meant when I said the degrees of the Spirit.

Would it be a valid explanation?

I would think so, but would imagine anything you try to explain will probably be rejected, but maybe not, there is always hope the person is listening and seeking the truth! I think the other point is that the Holy Spirit has always been in operation; He was active in the OT too, so it is not as if He suddenly just appears on the scene out of nowhere in the NT at Pentecost, if that makes sense.

 

[unstoppable_II]

That we receive Baptism and it dwells in us, why does it come again at Pentecost, at ordination, and so on? It sounds to him like many episodes of a first coming of the Spirit, just compiled. So how do I show that the Spirit received by the Apostles in John 21 doesn’t go and come back when they receive Him at Pentecost?

I would think these would be moot to a Muslim since there are no sacraments in Islam.

 

[MarcoPG]

I would think these would be moot to a Muslim since there are no sacraments in Islam.

The odd part for him is thhat the Holy Spirit is given many times. But Vico confirmed my view. The graces differ, not the Spirit nor the coming.

 

[TimothyH]

Confirmation corresponds to Pentecost. Confirmation is our personal participation in Pentecost.

Before Pentecost the disciples were locked in the upper room out of fear. After Pentecost they preached boldly. Peter went into the streets and converted 3000 in one day. Stephen wasn’t afraid to die. This corresponds to our strengthening in the sacrament of confirmation but we do not receive the spirit a second time - the spirit already dwells within us from Baptism.

Notice however, that the spirit falls on the Church at Pentecost. It does not fall on individuals but on everyone at once. This is also a clue. It is the birth of the Church which is created to fulfill the threefold mission to teach, make disciples and baptize.

In Luke’s story of Pentecost we see a strengthening of those who are already baptized so that they are no longer afraid and a commissioning of the Church as a whole to begin what Jesus started.
***In the first book, O The-oph’ilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach, *(Acts 1:1)

Luke tells us in the first line of Acts that Jesus began to work while he was on earth. Jesus continues to work but does so through his Church. The Church’s mission stared at Pentecost.

Again, Luke is concerned with charismatic outpourings, external expressions of the Holy Spirit. John on the other hand, is concerned with the interior life and reconciliation with God who’s Spirit then dwells in us.

Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.” (John 20:21-22)

The word breath comes from the Latin word spiritus. Jesus breathes life into the Church and goes on to give them the authority to forgive sins so that the spirit can act in us. We can clearly see John’s orientation toward the interior life of peace and sanctifying grace through the forgiveness of sins in the sacrament of reconciliation.

Again… context, context, context.

Who is Jesus taking to? Gentiles? Jews? The crowd? The disciples? The twelve?

Who is receiving the Holy Spirit? Everyone? Greeks? Jews? A family? The twelve?

-Tim-

 

[MarcoPG]

To make it clearer:

John 20 (not 21 as I said before)

21So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

And then acts 1

but you will receive the power of the Holy Spirit which will come on you, and then you will be my witnesses not only in Jerusalem but throughout Judaea and Samaria, and indeed to earth’s remotest end.

And Acts 2

1 When Pentecost day came round, they had all met together,

2 when suddenly there came from heaven a sound as of a violent wind which filled the entire house in which they were sitting;

3 and there appeared to them tongues as of fire; these separated and came to rest on the head of each of them.

4 They were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak different languages as the Spirit gave them power to express themselves.

So He says in John 20 they receive it, than in Acts two they receive it again. So how does the Holy Spirit dwell in them, it Jesus gives Him at least twice? therefore, these stories are compilations which don’t consider other versions and were then taken as one and only story.

I could tell him that the chronology isn’t always so clear as in a novel. . But the problem I have is: If I say the Apostles received the Spirit in John 20, and then the Church in Acts, he answers the Apostles were there both times, so they received it twice. Theological arguments do not help. But showing that there is a difference in action from the same Spirit could.

 

[RaphaelJ]

It seems to me that the Holy Spirit dwells in us all the time (or at least since we were baptized). However, the sacraments somehow alter what the Spirit does in us. In Confirmation, a seal is put on the soul and the Spirit gives us strength to go forth as soldiers of Christ. In Ordination, priests are given another seal which allows them to perform the sacraments and to act in Christ’s person. Also, the Holy Spirit gives many gifts that differ from person to person. Perhaps, the Spirit is always there but what the Bible speaks of is the different effects that the Spirit gives.

 

[thistle]

So, what is the Muslim argument on the corruption of the Gospel?

Anything in the Bible that does not agree with a Muslim’s belief is corrupt as far as Muslims are concerned.
When the Koran was put together Muslims assumed that the Bible (OT and NT) would support everything in the Koran. When it didn’t they had to figure out a way round this and so they simply came up with the idea that parts in the Bible that did not support Muslims beliefs must be corrupt.

 

[Vico]

The Holy Spirit first gives actual graces at the beginning of conversion.
***1 Cor. 12:3 Therefore, I tell you that nobody speaking by the spirit of God says, “Jesus be accursed.” And no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the holy Spirit.(“http://www.usccb.org/bible/1cor/12:03#54012003-b”)****Catechism of the Catholic Church ***2000Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. *

Habitual grace*, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

 

[MarcoPG]

The Holy Spirit first gives actual graces at the beginning of conversion.
***1 Cor. 12:3 *Therefore, I tell you that nobody speaking by the spirit of God says, “Jesus be accursed.” And no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the holy Spirit.(“http://www.usccb.org/bible/1cor/12:03#54012003-b”)***Catechism of the Catholic Church ***2000Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. *

Habitual grace*, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

So we agree I can explain that way: The many “receivings” of the Spirit are different graces, which are given each time by the same Spirit dwelling in the Apostles? “Receive the Spirit” would mean “Receive one of His graces”, the seven gifts (piety, fortitude, …) included. It might make sense to the Muslim, to have this reading.

 

[Vico]

So we agree I can explain that way: The many “receivings” of the Spirit are different graces, which are given each time by the same Spirit dwelling in the Apostles? “Receive the Spirit” would mean “Receive one of His graces”, the seven gifts (piety, fortitude, …) included. It might make sense to the Muslim, to have this reading.

You may be able to use this from the Modern Catholic Dictionary, however it states sanctifying grace which means baptism (water, desire, blood) and later sacraments:

**GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. **The seven forms of supernatural initiative conferred with the reception of sanctifying grace. They are in the nature of supernatural reflexes, or reactive instincts, that spontaneously answer to the divine impulses of grace almost without reflection but always with full consent. The gifts are wisdom (sapientia), understanding (intellectus), knowledge (scientia), fortitude or courage (fortitudo), counsel (consilium), piety or love (pietas), and fear of the Lord (timor Domini).
Have you read this on Actual Graces? The term actual graces was an innovation of John Capreolus (1380-1446).

Fr. John Hardon, S.J. writes:
“What are these actual graces concretely? In the mind they can be supernaturally infused judgments, whether practical or speculative, which patristic literature variously calls divine exhortations, vocations or, simply, divine knowledge. They can also be single ideas, especially when so strongly impressive as almost to constitute a positive judgment. Inspirations of the will may be movements of charity, or of any other virtue, like hope, temperance, penance or fear of God’s justice.”
therealpresence.org/archives/Grace/Grace_013.htm

 

[MarcoPG]

You may be able to use this from the Modern Catholic Dictionary, however it states sanctifying grace which means baptism (water, desire, blood) and later sacraments:

**GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. **The seven forms of supernatural initiative conferred with the reception of sanctifying grace. They are in the nature of supernatural reflexes, or reactive instincts, that spontaneously answer to the divine impulses of grace almost without reflection but always with full consent. The gifts are wisdom (sapientia), understanding (intellectus), knowledge (scientia), fortitude or courage (fortitudo), counsel (consilium), piety or love (pietas), and fear of the Lord (timor Domini).
Have you read this on Actual Graces? The term actual graces was an innovation of John Capreolus (1380-1446).

Fr. John Hardon, S.J. writes:
“What are these actual graces concretely? In the mind they can be supernaturally infused judgments, whether practical or speculative, which patristic literature variously calls divine exhortations, vocations or, simply, divine knowledge. They can also be single ideas, especially when so strongly impressive as almost to constitute a positive judgment. Inspirations of the will may be movements of charity, or of any other virtue, like hope, temperance, penance or fear of God’s justice.”
therealpresence.org/archives/Grace/Grace_013.htm

Thank you, though his problems are also on a chronological level. He (the Holy Spirit) came, why does he come once more? Surely I can show the different graces, but I neeed to explain why it is said that the Apostles receive the Spirit, and then have to wait for the Spirit to come.