Receivng Communion on your Hand

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This may sound facetious, but …

I think if the current rate of change continues as-is in the ‘Latin’ rite, in forty years, they won’t be debating whether CITH is a good idea or not.

They’ll be debating whether red is a good colour for liturgical dancing vestments. At a funeral.

Couldn’t possibly happen? Well, mentally do a ‘before and after’ photo of the average Sunday Mass, pre-1940 then post-2000. I’ll bet they didn’t see that coming when the vernacular Mass was but a gleam in the eye of some forward-thinking prelate.

**I wonder, in the end, if the key change was the priest facing the congregation?

Once he does that, it looks more like we’re the focus and he’s the performer we watch, like an actor at a play. Then making more changes, with more ‘audience participation’, doesn’t seem like a big deal.**
 
Compare the Tridentine Mass with a Lutheran service and ask yourself which the NO more closely resembles.

BTW: still waiting…
 
Compare the Tridentine Mass with a Lutheran service and ask yourself which the NO more closely resembles.

BTW: still waiting…
Compare the Tridentine Mass with a High Anglican or Episcopal (who we consider Protestant) mass and tell me if there is much of a visible difference.

A Lutheran service resembles the NO because the Lutherans, and other denominations, adopted our form of the mass and our cycle of readings, not the other way around.
 
The Tridentine Mass was around before the King Henry XIII created the Church Of England.

Lutheran reforms to the liturgy included ad populus, venacular, de-emphasis on the role of clergy, and of course transubstantiantion.

Protestant ministers attended V2 and it is generally accepted the NO was created in part as a ecumenical gesture.

The way to bring the lost sheep back into the fold is not to become more like them. The more reverence we can give the Blessed Sacrament the more Protestants are likely to accept it.
 
Shaming those opposed to the practice of communion in the hand is not a helpful step in binding together the body of Christ to Jesus. We are convinced in our position that, given our development in the Latin Rite, our understanding of the Eucharist, and our cultural norms, it is simply not as reverent to receive in the hand than it is on the tongue.
Ok, here’s the problem though. The entire premise of a handful of those contributing to the thread has been to shame those who are validly receiving communion in a way the Church has accepted, and then making all kinds of rash judgments and snide comments about their humility and reverence. As I noted, I have great admiration for the devotion and zeal you show; what I object to is the lack of abilty to understand that others can share that devotion and zeal while having a different preference on posture.

The main arguments used seem to follow this line:

1-We have Ockham with his “theological proof” that COTT is “factually” superior and wants someone to come up with a similar theological proof that CITH is better. The only “fact” involved here is that it is a very valid way of showing why some come to the conclusion that they do that it is more reverent. The “fact” is that it is a discipline which has varied through time and through different parts of the universal Catholic Church. As such it cannot have any “objective” superiority. The Church is entirely within its rights to come to the conclusion that it is an appropriate way, based on its theological and practical examinations. Once it has done so, it is NOT acceptable for lay people to be making judgments about those who choose an legitimate option the Church has offered, though they may certainly have opinions about the prudence of the decision.

2-We have Layman whose major premise, repeated ad nauseum, is that he doesn’t see what benefit has come from allowing CITH. Well, so what? The fact that he doesn’t see something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. And again, the Church and the Pope are who get to decide if there is potential value that outweighs potential risks. And then those who choose which way they want to receive that get to decide which one has the most benefit to them. The fact that this is continually laced with the implication that those who choose CITH, received from a “laywoman” <gasp!>, are just uninformed irreverent rubes only adds to the absurdity.

3-We have the argument that it came into being from (choose one) the Protestant Reformation or disobedience on the part of renegade Dutch bishops. Or your speculation that it was done to prevent schism, though there is no documentation for any such claim. Again, so what? Regardless of how it may have come into being, the Church examined the situation and made a decision. The Church gets to do that in matters of discipline to suit the times it exists in. It banned it at one time because of a perceived risk of a specific heresy. It was the norm at other times, and has been continuously within some rites. There is more to history and the decision than trying to connect some specific causation and Popes don’t do such things based on simple immediate expediency, nor do they continue to uphold them without valid reasons, whether we see and understand them or not.

4-We have the argument of particles being dropped or treated disrespectfully. This can be a valid reason to consider, and I’m sure it was taken into account in the decision making. The fact is though that there is more dispersion of particles in the breaking of the host–watch a closeup video of this some time!–than in distribution. Better catechesis can easily reduce or eliminate any danger here.

5-Finally we have the most outrageous argment of all. We have Layman’s repeated denial that interior dispostion isn’t what matters and that it is our outward “show” that makes the difference. This is totally contrary to all teaching of the Church and the Bible and just boggles the mind to hear coming from an “informed” Catholic. In fact, as I noted earlier, Jesus specifically spoke against such “shows” of piety.

Again, I’m not here to make arguments for or against either method. Both have value to those who choose them. The Church, in her wisdom, has at least at this time chosen to allow both and has said that both have equal value in the places where they are used. We don’t get to make judgments about people’s choices in the matter based on what the Church allows, especially when they are the approved norm of those places, which people are expected to observe. I do agree with Ockham that there should be better catechesis about the legimate choice of COTT though I would disagree that there has been a deliberate attempt to bury it in some way.

We are the Body of Christ. We are to support and uphold each other rather than tear each other down. I have severe problems with the need to “win” arguments at the expense of damaging the Body. This is a win-win situation in that people have two choices in how they want to express their piety, just as they have two choices in how they want to express their worship overall in the OF or EF liturgies. We really don’t need to be creating false divisions based on these legitimate preference issues.

Just as a final point…
Now, if I wanted to wear jeans suddenly because I felt more comfortable or looked more in line with pop culture, that would not be a good choice because the motivation is not to better honor God. Instead, my motivation in this case is to honor myself, a very humanist quality.
This is again a completely false analogy. We are not talking about individuals making a choice to do something inappropriate. We are talking about individuals making a choice to do something the Church has already examined and deemed appropriate. For you or anyone else to be casting aspersions and judgments that they are doing so in a way that honors themselves rather than God, or just doing so flippantly to be “more in line with pop culture” is simply unacceptable. None of us have the ability to look into anyone’s heart to make those judgments.
 
2-We have Layman whose major premise, repeated ad nauseum, is that he doesn’t see what benefit has come from allowing CITH. Well, so what? The fact that he doesn’t see something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. And again, the Church and the Pope are who get to decide if there is potential value that outweighs potential risks. And then those who choose which way they want to receive that get to decide which one has the most benefit to them. The fact that this is continually laced with the implication that those who choose CITH, received from a “laywoman” <gasp!>, are just uninformed irreverent rubes only adds to the absurdity.

5-Finally we have the most outrageous argment of all. We have Layman’s repeated denial that interior dispostion isn’t what matters and that it is our outward “show” that makes the difference. This is totally contrary to all teaching of the Church and the Bible and just boggles the mind to hear coming from an “informed” Catholic. In fact, as I noted earlier, Jesus specifically spoke against such “shows” of piety.
I think it’s a fair question: what benefit, didactic or spiritual, is there in changing a Roman Catholic diocese over from COTT, kneeling, from a priest, to CITH, standing from a laywoman? And no one has given one, beyond: It’s allowed because the Church allows it, it was/is done in other rites and personal disposition trumps outer display, **(in a public rite which is, in essence, an outward display of inner intentions.) **

Big changes to something so important should have good reasons. Or at least one.

I mean, you could, I suppose, reduce the rite to a bare consecration and a couple of readings in a bare room, with all present interiorly being quite reverent, but would that be a fit ceremony to propitiate a wrathful God? And how harder would it be to convert sinners, lapsed Catholics, pagans and atheists if that’s all they saw when they wandered into the church? Or keep the faithful from drifting away from, or acting casually at, a rite that’s become quite easy-going?

I read Russia, a huge country, became Orthodox on the basis that the Russian Tsar’s envoys saw how beautiful their rite was.

It’d be nice to think we could match that.

Making the rite barer, in the common language, in barer churches, with folksy hymns and letting the congregation handle the sacred Matter is not the way to go. It’s a contradiction: A rite aimed a propitiating the Lord Of The Universe which is gradually increasing the focus on, and elevating, the participants, while playing down the object of worship
 
Waiting…
Nobody owes you a theological argument as to why its OK to recieve CITH. I know you are attached to this conspiracy theory that has somethng to do with the Dutch wanting to march us like lemmings straight into hell by taking communion in the hand followed by a meek Magestium who would likewise march us into hell becuase they were afraid of a Schism. But for the rest of us we trust in the words of Christ that the gates of hell will not prevail against his Church. His Church has said it is OK for us to recieve communion in the hand. Thats is far more powerful than you conspiracy theories or “theological” arguments.

You talk about this causing a division in the Church- a division that , you say, can only be healed by forcing everyone to go to communion the way you want them to. For 99% of Catholics whether one recieves communion in the hand or on the tongue is a non-issue. The only ones who see a “division” are those who, unfortunately, have been moved to worship a way of celebrating the Mass rather than our Lord and Savior.
 
But for the rest of us we trust in the words of Christ that the gates of hell will not prevail against his Church. His Church has said it is OK for us to recieve communion in the hand. Thats is far more powerful than you conspiracy theories or “theological” arguments.
This assumes that whatever The Church does is OK. The Church can make mistakes, and, eventually, right them. Bishop’s conferences can make mistakes. Large sections of The Catholic Church could be lost to apostasy or schism, but still The Church would continue.

The problem would be who would be in it and who would not.

CITH was banned in the Roman Catholic rite for hundreds of years. In the last 30+, it’s gotten popular, as a fad, I think. Could easily be banned again within the next 40.
 
The Tridentine Mass was around before the King Henry XIII created the Church Of England.
Henry XIII did not create the Church of England - that was Henry VIII.
The Tridentine Mass came about from the Council of Trent. Yes, it was almost exactly the same as it was before (in the time of HVIII) but it’s an anachronism to call it the Tridentine Mass.
 
This assumes that whatever The Church does is OK. The Church can make mistakes, and, eventually, right them. Bishop’s conferences can make mistakes. Large sections of The Catholic Church could be lost to apostasy or schism, but still The Church would continue.

The problem would be who would be in it and who would not.

CITH was banned in the Roman Catholic rite for hundreds of years. In the last 30+, it’s gotten popular, as a fad, I think. Could easily be banned again within the next 40.
It is ironic -you can go to just about any thread about Female ordination or homosexual marriage and see people who endorse these make the same arguments you do-that the Church makes mistakes.

If the Church decides to remove the indult I will humble and respectfully recieve by the tongue. Unfortuantely the same can not be said for those who think who demand COTT .
 
It is ironic -you can go to just about any thread about Female ordination or homosexual marriage and see people who endorse these make the same arguments you do-that the Church makes mistakes.

If the Church decides to remove the indult I will humble and respectfully recieve by the tongue. Unfortuantely the same can not be said for those who think who demand COTT .
I 100% agree with you. I really am having a hard time understanding all this ya ya over this issue? Is there a problem with women lay persons giving the Host? And are those who take Communion on the tongue anymore Holy than those that don’t.? We certainlly have a lot of Judges here, but I am glad Jesus is my Judge.:clapping:
 
It is ironic -you can go to just about any thread about Female ordination or homosexual marriage and see people who endorse these make the same arguments you do-that the Church makes mistakes.
I’m not arguing for female ordination or homosexual mariage. I’m arguing that CITH adds nothing to our worship and robs us of a chance to express humility before The Real Presence.

It also looks like an attempt to desacralise it, in the minds of worshippers, within our rite: If before you couldn’t handle it, but now anyone can … 🤷
 
The Tridentine Mass was around before the King Henry XIII created the Church Of England…
I think you mean Henry VIII? He died in 1547, the Council of Trent wasn’t over until 1563, the Tridentine Mass came of course after that.
 
I’m not arguing for female ordination or homosexual mariage. I’m arguing that CITH adds nothing to our worship and robs us of a chance to express humility before The Real Presence.

It also looks like an attempt to desacralise it, in the minds of worshippers, within our rite: If before you couldn’t handle it, but now anyone can … 🤷
And I might add are you suggesting that the Church makes mistakes? I thought this wasn’t possible according to some? CITH does not take away anything to me, and I feel very humble when I receive or give Communion:thumbsup: I do not ever feel robbed just JOY. So my advice is to receive Christ in whatever way you chose and if you feel wonderful maybe you will consentrate on you and Christ instead of others and Christ.👍
 
I’m not arguing for female ordination or homosexual mariage. I’m arguing that CITH adds nothing to our worship and robs us of a chance to express humility before The Real Presence.

It also looks like an attempt to desacralise it, in the minds of worshippers, within our rite: If before you couldn’t handle it, but now anyone can … 🤷
In your opinion, In my opinion it is better to receive by the hand. Fortuanately we do not have to be ruled by opinion in the Church. The church tells us what is proper and what is not. The difference i see is that some who prefer to recieve on the tongue want to deny those of us who prefer to receive in the hand.
 
I would hate to make a mistake and put out my hand to receive communion in a diocese where communion in the hand is proscribed, so please, which Bishops have proscribed the practice of communion in the hand? Are there American dioceses where I cannot receive communion in the hand if I so desire?
IIRC there is excactly one Bishop who has done this and he is in Italy.
 
1-We have Ockham with his “theological proof” that COTT is “factually” superior and wants someone to come up with a similar theological proof that CITH is better. The only “fact” involved here is that it is a very valid way of showing why some come to the conclusion that they do that it is more reverent. The “fact” is that it is a discipline which has varied through time and through different parts of the universal Catholic Church. As such it cannot have any “objective” superiority. The Church is entirely within its rights to come to the conclusion that it is an appropriate way, based on its theological and practical examinations. Once it has done so, it is NOT acceptable for lay people to be making judgments about those who choose an legitimate option the Church has offered, though they may certainly have opinions about the prudence of the decision…
It isn’t my opinion COTT is superior, it is the Church’s. It is the universal norm to receive COTT and only by an indult can CITH be received. Don’t argue with me, read what Pope Paul VI said about it when this liturgical abuse started post V2. Then read all the quotes from other popes, saints and theologians too. CITH was practiced early in the Church and then seen to be improper. Do your research before making accusations as to my intentions. Try responding to the facts I have presented instead of trying to reduce this debate down to an absurd level of my opinion versus yours, or the ol’ “its in the GIRM”.
 
Nobody owes you a theological argument as to why its OK to recieve CITH.
Why not? Could it be because you can’t make one?

I don’t know where this conspiracy theory accusation comes from but you can be assured it is falsely applied.
 
Why not? Could it be because you can’t make one?

I don’t know where this conspiracy theory accusation comes from but you can be assured it is falsely applied.
Why don’t you consentrate on your own Communion instead of others? If you did you might find some joy in the Lord.
 
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