Yes, you are correct. I am sure he is not trying to concelebrate, but he should definitely not be reciting the prayers of the priest. For more info, there was a similar thread a couple of weeks ago where I posted:I was taught we shouldn’t even join in the Doxology. Am I right?
The Code of Canon Law, No 907 is more explicit “In the eucharistic celebration deacons and lay persons are not permitted to offer prayers, especially the eucharistic prayer, or to perform actions which are proper to the celebrating priest.”
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=136468&highlight=eucharisticEcclesiae de mysterio, a document put out by the Church in 1997 states:
“To promote the proper identity (of various roles) in this area, those abuses which are contrary to the provisions of canon 907 are to be eradicated. In eucharistic celebrations deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not pronounce prayers – e.g. especially the eucharistic prayer, with its concluding doxology – or any other parts of the liturgy reserved to the celebrant priest. Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant.” (Article Six, No 2)
I’m not sure these guidelines are really discussing the gentleman in the pews who is speaking along with the the priest. It sounds more like they are taking about having a lay person up on the altar speaking instead of the priest. It is probably not a deliberate action on the part of the person in question–maybe just a way for him to participate more fully. I would recommend to the OP to find another place to sit at the next mass.Yes, you are correct. I am sure he is not trying to concelebrate, but he should definitely not be reciting the prayers of the priest. For more info, there was a similar thread a couple of weeks ago where I posted:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=136468&highlight=eucharistic
So really, we’re all entitled to recite the Eucharistic prayers along with the priest? As long as we’re not vested and standing at the altar?I’m not sure these guidelines are really discussing the gentleman in the pews who is speaking along with the the priest. It sounds more like they are taking about having a lay person up on the altar speaking instead of the priest. It is probably not a deliberate action on the part of the person in question–maybe just a way for him to participate more fully. I would recommend to the OP to find another place to sit at the next mass.
That’s a perfectly valid opinion, however, we’ll have to take at your word, since the document does not make your distinction.I’m not sure these guidelines are really discussing the gentleman in the pews who is speaking along with the the priest.
When I read it, I understand “Non-ordained members of the faithful” to mean all those members of the faithful who are not ordained, regardless of their physical location (in a pew, not in a pew).From Ecclesiae de mysterio:
In eucharistic celebrations deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not pronounce prayers – e.g. especially the eucharistic prayer, with its concluding doxology – or any other parts of the liturgy reserved to the celebrant priest.
It is definitely condemning this.It sounds more like they are taking about having a lay person up on the altar speaking instead of the priest.
I think you’re right; it may not be deliberate on his part, but it is still wrong. However, it is certainly not a valid way to “participate more fully.” Reading the words of the prayer may be, but our participation in the Eucharistic prayer is not as a priest, not as an offer-er of this prayer (either offically on the altar or ‘unofficially’ in the pew). Our participation is different from the priest, not only in degree but in essence.It is probably not a deliberate action on the part of the person in question–maybe just a way for him to participate more fully
I would recommend to the OP to find another place to sit at the next mass.
Oh, c’mon, Kirk, some people read out loud; next you’ll be saying we have no right to read the qwords as the priest pronounces them!So really, we’re all entitled to recite the Eucharistic prayers along with the priest? As long as we’re not vested and standing at the altar?
I VERY much doubt that this is the case, as the deacon, who IS vested, who IS standing at the altar, is also prohibited from reciting the prayers.
The poster should find another place to sit AND contact his pastor, who should provide the proper catechesis to his people.
…is your contention that he is reading a Sacramentary during Mass?Has anyone stopped to think that some people can’t read without reading out loud?
I seriously doubt the problem is as big as some seem to be making it.
It is entirely possible that the poor gentleman is harkening back to the Charismatic movement, and learned a bad habit back then.
It seems more likely, since I have come across any number of people who are not particularly good readers, that the poor gentleman is just a poor reader who reads out loud to himself.
If the former, well, if some intrepid spirit wants to set out to correct him, feel free. But if you find that you have stepped into a mess of your own making and are now chewing on the foot you used to step in it, well, maybe a bit of humility will be good for you.
What is it that suddenly seems to provoke this need to go around correcting everyone else? Don’t you folks have any kids you can work on? God ordained me to raise my children and expected me to correct them; but He only gave me two. He expects me to work on myself for the rest of the time, I think…
What gets me the most is that there seems to be an almost Pavlov reaction , or rush to judgement, that someone who is doing something is intentionally out to violate some rule. Give the guy a break; if he bothers you go sit somewhere else, and leave him to his prayers. I would hazard a guess that God is much less offended at his prayer intent expressed by his actions than we are.
From the OP, it appears he was reading from a missalette in the pews.…is your contention that he is reading a Sacramentary during Mass?
Hunh? When I was a kid, we had missalettes (we called them Missals, but the most certainly weren’t what I think you are calling a Missal, as in Sacramentary; it had the Latin on one side and English on the other - the whole Mass). We still have missalettes in the pews, with the exception of those idiots who want to take the posture that the “Gospel is to be proclaimed”, meaning that those who are visual learners, as opposed to the now exalted aural learners, are to be cast into the outer darkness, and have done away with the missalettes.Otherwise, your objection makes very little sense. The Eucharistic prayer does not appear in anything he should be reading during Mass unless, as stated, he is actually reading the Missal.
Well, pardon me! I learned that we were to join our prayers to the prayers of the priest, and the best way to do that was to be reading along in the missalette in English while he said the prayers in Latin. Darn, those old heresies of pre-Vatican 2 piety! Or are you now going to say that because we read them in English and he was saying them in Latin, that that was different? And of course, then Vatican 2 and subsequent legislation allowing the Mass in the vernacular - wow, another heresy! Why, if reading along as the priest says them is wrong, perhaps even listening is forbidden!And no, this isn’t an issue of “leave the guy to his prayers” because, frankly, they are not his prayers, they are prayers reserved for the priest. They are prayers of offering a sacrifice that he, as a layperson, cannot offer.
As I find your post offensive. Guess this forum is an equal offense opportunity. I am not defending a bad habit possibly picked up from the Charismatice Movement; I only suggested that might be one possible explanation of why he did it. I made the point to clarify that there might be another reason - the one I suggested next, which I think is way mroe possible. In my humble experience, there are more poor readers than there are people with experience of the Charismatic Movement.As for your lesson in humility bit, I actually take offense to that. I take offense on behalf of any Catholic who wishes to remain true to the church. You are defending what you admit could be a bad habit picked up from the Charismatic movement. The charitable thing to do would be to politely inform your brother in Christ that the prayers he is reciting are reserved for the priest. If he refuses to listen, well, not much you can do beyond that.
Perhaps you should actually read what I really said. Unless you are taking the position that the world wide Church is in gross violation of your perceived law, I would suggest that my post applies to you. He is most likely reading the prayers as the priest says them, something that was encouraged and continues to be encouraged since well before Vatican 2. Strangely, therre seem to be a whole lot of priests, bishops andHowever, telling people they need a lesson in humility because they take offense to a man praying the prayers intended for the priest when he is not a priest, is like telling a Jewish person they have no right to be offended because I go into their synagogue and attempt to lead services. It just doesn’t make sense.
Following the Spirit of the Law does NOT negate the law itself, and as Catholics, we have a Canon Law, a Catechism and an Instruction for the Order of the Mass (GIRM) that must be followed. It is that Sacred Tradition which serves as a link on this earth to Jesus and his ministry on earth just as our spirituality links us to God always and forever.
If the person has a mental illness and thus has not cabably of regulating their actions, that’s fine. But otherwise, speaking is a deliberate action.It is probably not a deliberate action on the part of the person in question–
The correct way to fully participate during the Eucharistic Prayer is silence. What the faithful are supposed to be doing there, their primary actio, is to offer themselves along with the seperate sacrifice the priest is offering.maybe just a way for him to participate more fully. .
He was not.From the OP, it appears he was reading from a missalette in the pews.
I think allowing me and the rest of us not to be distracted during the EP is far more compassionate, don’t you?In the parish I use to attend there was this wonderfully sweet and pious elderly lady. She was a bit hard of hearing, not deaf or anything but she would describe it as putting a tea cup over both her ears. Because she had a hard time hearing the prayers, she would read with the Missal. She was one of those who have to read with her lips so as she read she would whisper the words, but because of her lessened hearing her whispers were closer to the quiet conversational level.
She wasn’t trying to be irreverent, actually it was the total opposite.
She wasn’t trying to take the role of a priest, she was truly praying.
Now just looking at her you would never had known any of this, you actually had to TALK to her. So maybe instead of assuming that people are deliberatly trying to commit abuses you should talk to them. I don’t mean correct them, I mean just talk to them, find out who they are, what they are like. Make them feel like they are a person and not an irriation.
Jesus tried to teach us compasion for our fellow man. What better place to start then in His house!
Actually, that is called courtesy.I think allowing me and the rest of us not to be distracted during the EP is far more compassionate, don’t you?
So, does it mean that I would not be permitted to pray even in silence.The Code of Canon Law, No 907 is more explicit “In the eucharistic celebration deacons and lay persons are not permitted to offer prayers, especially the eucharistic prayer, or to perform actions which are proper to the celebrating priest.”