Reconciliation and Sin

[OldeThom]

in regards to venail sins…at mass we begin with the Penitential Rite…it is here we can reiceve forgiveness/abosolution of venail sins…and in regards to forgiveness of mortal sin,forgiveness can be obtained without confession(perhaps except in extreme :murder) there has to be firm resovle to seek the sacrement of reconcillation,asp…if dieing and one commits a "perfect act"of contrition mortal sins are forgiven,but in this case it is presumptious to assume one can sin freely,and in the end commit an act of perfect contrition…

Ah fbl9, I did not see your post! ack! I will come back to this, as you raised a very important question, one I failed to remember. Thank you. I am tired and must get going early, so be back in a few days.

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[OldeThom]

OK, I am back as promised. Sorry for the delay.

fbl9 (as well as others) I wanted to ask, having known about the Penitential Rite in Mass, how does that in fact relate to the Sacrament of Reconciliation? and for that matter, to sacramental Absolution … why go to Confession so frequently if you go to Mass two or three times a week? or even once on Sunday? how often does a Christian, conscious of his life and dedication to Christ, actually commit a moral sin? I understand the need for priestly wisdom, guidance and direction, but is that the only reason one needs to go to confession if forgiveness and absolution can be obtained in the penitential rite at Mass? I certainly understand the need to confess mortal sin before receiving the Eucharist, that is not in question here.

Respectfully,
Thom

PS - Started a separate post on purgatory

 

[jpjd]

The Penitential Rite forgives venial sins only. So, a person would still need Confession for forgiveness of mortal sins.

Having said that, however, I think many Catholics who go to Confession frequently are not going because they are confessing mortal sins. From my own experience, I know I have confessed things that were probably only venial. The reasons I sometimes go to Confession for venial sins even though they would be forgiven in the Penitential Rite: I am sometimes not sure if a given sin is considered mortal or venial; I just feel a need to unburden myself; I want spiritual direction from a priest; I need to hear the words of absolution; and I think most of all, I want to receive the sacramental grace that Confession brings - the grace to help me resist sin.

 

[GailMac]

Dear Olde Thom - nice to “see” you again! hmmmmmmm…thoughts on Sacrament of Reconciliation…
The priest has a Sacrament on his soul, a golden seal that brings to life God in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. He pours out His Blood on your poor soul through a formula, a few words spoken by the priest in the quiet of the Confessional, words God gave him to speak at his own ordination, words that live on in our hearts and minds and lives…words that bring His peace to your poor soul restoring your poor soul to it’s baptismal grace and then what does God do? Takes your sins and forgets them! As if they never were!

I made my first Confession two weeks after the night of the Easter Vigil. It was a really holy moment. I floated on air the whole way home. But then there was the opening of the tomb door…my home.

I didn’t get the rite of acceptance thing. I had my sponsor for the event, some gal who I barely remember her name, stand in for the priest at the exorcism part. She “signed” me all over the place, ears, nose, etc… with poor Father Death watching. I felt really bad for him having to watch a woman do his work. It was hardly a holy moment. But my anger didn’t get the best of me at that moment. Instead I went into mourning. Now I can really relate to the sword of sorrow our Lady bore at the Crucifixion.

Hmmmm…rite of acceptance…does that have anything at all to do with the Samaritan woman caught in adultery and the stones they didn’t throw at her?

Peace,

Gail

 

[GailMac]

Dear Olde Thom - here’s something else that may provide some balm for your wounds -

B. How Often Should We Celebrate This Sacrament?

Catholics are obliged by the law of the Church to confess their serious sins at least once a year, after reaching the age of discretion (Canon 989). The Sacrament of Penance must precede one’s First Holy Communion (Canon 914). One who is conscious of mortal sin may not receive the Holy Eucharist without prior sacramental confession when this is possible (Canon 916).

But we should not wait twelve months after committing a serious sin before we respond to God’s call to repentance. Far better to make an act of contrition as soon as we can, and go to confession without delay. We certainly do not want to live in a state of separation from God, and even more, to die in that state. We should fear to hear the words of the Divine Judge: “Depart from me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Mt 25:41) . Neither should we want to have to abstain from Holy Communion for any length of time.

There is another reason for frequent use of the Sacrament of Penance. It is because every sin diminishes our ability to fulfill our responsibilities before God. Any sin I might commit will make me a less effective bishop. The sins of priests detract from their ministry. The sins of parents scandalize their children and wound their marriage. And so on with all the duties of one’s state in life. The sooner we repent, the sooner we recover the state of grace, the more will God’s grace strengthen us to resist temptation and to give witness to Christ by the goodness of our lives.

And so the Church asks bishops, priests and deacons to approach the sacrament “frequently” (Canon 276.5). I heartily encourage all the faithful to do likewise, especially as we draw near to the Great Jubilee of mercy and renewal. As children in Catholic schools we were provided by the Sisters with the opportunity for confession once each month and were encouraged to make this a year round practice for life. Although each person must decide this for himself or herself, it seems to me to be a good practice to continue and to develop."

ewtn.com/library/BISHOPS/PENANCE.HTM

Hope that help some.

Peace,

Gail

 

[fbl9]

OK, I am back as promised. Sorry for the delay.

fbl9 (as well as others) I wanted to ask, having known about the Penitential Rite in Mass, how does that in fact relate to the Sacrament of Reconciliation? and for that matter, to sacramental Absolution … why go to Confession so frequently if you go to Mass two or three times a week? or even once on Sunday? how often does a Christian, conscious of his life and dedication to Christ, actually commit a moral sin? I understand the need for priestly wisdom, guidance and direction, but is that the only reason one needs to go to confession if forgiveness and absolution can be obtained in the penitential rite at Mass? I certainly understand the need to confess mortal sin before receiving the Eucharist, that is not in question here.

Respectfully,
Thom

PS - Started a separate post on purgatory

sorry if i caused you any confusion the penitental rite is only intended for the forgiveness of venail sins in order that one is clean on the inside before recieving the Eucharist…mortal sins need the sacrement of reconcillation…but that in no way denies that mortal sins can be forgiven outside of the sacrement,if one is sincere in thier contrition AND makes a firm resolve, and KEEPS it,to recieve reconcillation in the most timely manner.Thier sins are forgiven…

 

[FrDavid96]

OK, I am back as promised. Sorry for the delay.

fbl9 (as well as others) I wanted to ask, having known about the Penitential Rite in Mass, how does that in fact relate to the Sacrament of Reconciliation? and for that matter, to sacramental Absolution … why go to Confession so frequently if you go to Mass two or three times a week? or even once on Sunday? how often does a Christian, conscious of his life and dedication to Christ, actually commit a moral sin? I understand the need for priestly wisdom, guidance and direction, but is that the only reason one needs to go to confession if forgiveness and absolution can be obtained in the penitential rite at Mass? I certainly understand the need to confess mortal sin before receiving the Eucharist, that is not in question here.

Respectfully,
Thom

PS - Started a separate post on purgatory

Thom:

Here’s how I would respond:
We need to look at our entire lives of faith, and the faith itself in totality. We are forgiven for many different reasons in many different ways:
God’s freely-given and infinite mercy
The Sacrament of Confession
The Penititential Rite of the Mass
The Eucharist Itself (“given…for the forgiveness of sins”)
The Sacrament of Unction
Penitential acts like fasting, prayer and almsgiving
Sacramentals like ashes on Ash Wesnesday
Reading Sacred Scripture, especially the penitential Psalms.
Our own genuine desire to be forgiven
Our own efforts to make reparations to those whom we’ve injured
much more could be added to this list, but that gives you an idea

The Sacrament of Confession is the ordinary (that is the usual) way in which we seek and receive absolution and forgiveness, especially for mortal sins, but venial as well.

None of these can ever replace sacramental absolution. Even forgiveness from God, which certainly removes the sins and all effects of them, does not allow us to hear and know that we’ve been forgiven, which is a genuine human need.

The Penitential Rite has its own purpose and value in the Mass. It reminds us first of all that we are sinners, and need to repent of that sin before experiencing the awesome Mystery of the Eucharist. That’s the purpose of the rite, not as a substitute for sacramental confession. Because its purpose is not to be a replacement, simply put, it is not one.
I can substitute a hammer for a screwdriver, and it might get the screw into the wall, but that’s just not what a hammer is “for”.

I “can” be forgiven by the Penitential Rite, but if I want to do things the right way, I use the right tool for the right job. The many ways that we seek forgiveness of sins in the totality of our Christian lives all point-to and revolve-around the Sacrament of Confession. Confession by itself would do us no good if it is not part of a totality of Christian faith and life. If the only time we seek forgiveness is within confession, or if we fail to make any effort to live our lives in the way Christ taught once we step out of the confessional, then the sacrament would ultimately be of little benefit to us. Confession not only heals us of past sins, but it also aids us in avoiding future sins (in many different ways).
Likewise, if we rely solely on the other means of forgiveness, like your example of the penitential rite, then we are in effect rejecting the absolution, forgiveness, healing and strengthening that Christ is offering us through the Sacrament. This too would do us little good and much harm. Christ gave us the Sacraments because He knows that we need them. That’s probably the best answer of all.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Fr. David,
Brilliant post! :tiphat:

VC

 

[EasterJoy]

Purgatory is an easy one to explain.

Say you are invited to dinner at the White House on a rainy day. You have your engraved invitation in-hand. You’ve passed the security clearance. On the way in, you step in some mud. What do you do? Answer: wipe your shoes off on the mat before you go inside.
Stopping at the entranceway for a moment doesn’t mean you aren’t going to get inside. You are on your way in, no one is stopping you, you just have to clean yourself up a little before you step onto the carpeting.

Purgatory is the same thing.

Too easy.

I have become uncomfortable with the dirt analogy. Getting dirty is something that can be fun, that can happen during the course of innocent behaviors, and that, in any event, happens to the outside of you. Dirt is not an inherently bad thing.

Sin is a different matter. Sin is more like using alcohol or drugs to self-medicate our problems. It is a choice that we make for the purpose of freeing ourselves that instead enslaves us worse than we were before. In fact, I think that a habit of sin is precisely like an alcohol or drug addiction. For the addict, there is no “safe amount” of their substance of abuse. There isn’t a safe amount of sin, either.

I look at death more like finding yourself in a totally healthy environment, but one that is emptied of everything you don’t need, in favor of everything that actually is going to keep you happy and healthy. If you go into that place with a drug or alcohol habit, you are going to be pretty miserable for awhile, even though getting clean and sober is obviously the best thing that could have ever happened to you. The pain is going to be physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, and absolutely real. When you get done with the days of withdrawal, you’re not going to look at the days when you were “using” with any sentimentality! You’re going to give thanks from the bottom of your heart that you have been given your life, finally. That transition time of “rehab”…that’s Purgatory. The state in which you have given up everything that won’t work for a life in which you depend entirely on God for your needs in each moment…that’s Heaven! I think it is that simple. The saints know they are totally dependent on God, that their “sobriety” is one-day-at-a-time. That is why they are so humble. Without God, they are just as powerless over sin as any of the rest of us.

If you go into eternal life in a state where you can’t give up every single one of those things you have come to depend on, but which are never, ever going to work for you, then that’s Hell. There is nothing any doctor in the world can do for an addict who won’t freely stop using. Take away the liquor, and you still have a “dry drunk.” There is no enslavement so total as a chosen enslavement.

We don’t have to wait until we die to admit we have no power over sin, to turn our lives over to God. We can reject our enslavement right now, and choose life. Rejecting sin, like getting clean and sober, is both an act of the will and an admission that we don’t have “willpower” enough to do it ourselves. Confession? I think of it as our own personal “sinners-anonymous” meeting!

We can tell ourselves that we don’t need those meetings, but let’s face it…we do!

 

[OldeThom]

I apologise for coming back late! I was detained by illness and an unexpected trip. Such wonderful and inspiring responses! I cannot thank you all enough for your wisdom and insight. Almost all my questions (asked or hidden) have been answered … “almost” because I tend to leave room for the future . I esp want to thank FrDavid (not that the rest are not deserving of special thanks - thank you as well!), but when I read your words I feel like I am back in college listening to one of my favorite profs!

You all have made it clear, and I am assured, I have nothing to fear from in my first confession. In fact I am now actually looking forward to it, but not as much as I am looking forward to the Sacrament of Eucharist - which I long for with all my heart and soul.

I have copied this thread and will cut and paste it into my notes and share with our RCIA group, I hope that is OK.

Respectfully,
Thom

PS - a little off topic, but this weekend I had the misfortune of missing Mass (double whammy now being in the catechumenate phase of RCIA). I went to my sister’s independent protestant church where they just happened to be serving communion. I did not partake in it. My sister and husband asked why I did not. I simply said I am not worthy nor was I hungry. They gave me a weird look … I guess that was kind of flippant but it actually was truthful. It just seemed …like I was going along with everyone else because it was expected and I just didn’t feel the same way as I no longer look at “communion” that way. They might as well have been serving biscuits and gravy. Was that the wrong thing to do? It felt right to not accept it to me.

 

[fbl9]

hi Olde Thom::you made it clear that you know the Eucharist to be true…say i was to give you a choice between a “kit” Lamborgini(si)[kit as in body panels on a domesitic vehicle] or a real Lambo…which would you pick? i am not sure if you are obiliged to attend mass,but it would be preferable…

 

[OldeThom]

fbl9, thank you for the analogy although I am not a big car fan - I can’t even drive! . At this point in my quest I am seeing my life and my future in a different light so when I am confronted with what I perceive as an awkward situation that involves my past, I sometimes wonder if my response was the right one or not (or appropriate …). I like to have some check and balance in my life occasionally .

As far as obligation to attend Mass, I think I am “supposed” to there, as I am a candidate in the catechumenate process, but I will ask. I could not find reference to that in my notes, literature or references. I know I am not under the Church’s canon of Obligation (Mass plus the six days of obligation), but in my heart I know I am.

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[FrDavid96]

Thom,
To not receive “communion” in a protestant service is definately the right thing to do. Since you know it is not the Body of Christ, how can you treat it like it is?

Would you knowingly accept a counterfeit $100 bill?

You did the right thing by not receiving, and by finding a non-confrontational way of explaining it.

 

[OldeThom]

FrDavid,
Thank you. Exactly, those were the words that described how I felt. This has been a great discussion.

God bless you,
Thom