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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Yes.
Why do people feel the actual church rubrics and sacrament are not sufficient and who is charged with coming up with these innovations?
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Why do people feel the actual church rubrics and sacrament are not sufficient and who is charged with coming up with these innovations?
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felsguy
Guest
You ought to try eating a little quiche sometime. You might come to like it.This is the problem with the touchey freely stuff. Yes, some men may find an excecise like this ok. But many would not. Many would be turned off by it. So why do something that may make SOME uncomfortable!? It belongs on a couch in an office, not in a quasi liturgical setting.
If been to stuff like this.
Not a lot of men…
Of course that can be said for Mass sometimes too.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
I make a great quiche. It’s cheesy. Eggs cottage cheese, cream cheese, Monterrey jack cheese etc.You ought to try eating a little quiche sometime. You might come to like it.
If you ever need the recipie…
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bardegaulois
Guest
Actually, for what it’s worth I did read read that confessions were heard. The problem is that some may take the first ritual as more important than the second or forego the auricular confession altogether in favour of something that is merely therapeutic (in the contemporary sense) and has absolutely no precedent in the traditions of the Church. As it stands, most priests in my area (I can’t speak for elsewhere) spend too little time in the confession, often all of a half hour to 45 minutes weekly. Their actions show a lack of emphasis on this sacrament that no amount of words can make up for.
It was said earlier that sitting in a confessional is not a priest’s job. I would dare ask then, if the sacraments, the sole things in the world that only one in Holy Orders can do, are not a priest’s job, then what is?
It was said earlier that sitting in a confessional is not a priest’s job. I would dare ask then, if the sacraments, the sole things in the world that only one in Holy Orders can do, are not a priest’s job, then what is?
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otjm
Guest
You might wish to re-read the OP. It was a communal Reconciliation service, with priests there to hear individual confessions at the end; the act of burning one’s sin was only a part of the service, Not only is there no evidence that anyone walked out, there is no reason to even presume that anyone would walk out, as I have yet to meet anyone who has come to a communal Reconciliation service who has not gone to confession at the end - whether or not there was any interim ritual such as the OP noted.
Playing “what if” with the issue is plain silliness. Some there may have chosen not to participate in the ritual of burning one’s sin; but I sincerely doubt anyone came to the service not intending to confess. You are treating this as if someone wandered in off the “reservation” just to see what was going on. In all the years I have been to communal Reconciliation services, I have yet to find anyone who “wandered in”, or anyone who left before it was completed. They all line up and confess.
Certainly one could not want to participate in the ritual of burning a sin, but wild speculation has no place in the conversation.
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otjm
Guest
Because people are people, and part of our human existence is that after time, we have a tendency to operate closer to a rote process. We also have a tendency to intellectualize matters (ncluding our sinfulness) and avoid any emotions related to them.
You may not like the ritual, and I don’t say you are wrong. Perhaps a bit up-tight, but plenty of people are.
However, the ritual resounds a bit of the Old Testament comment in Isiah 38:17: “Behold in peace is my bitterness most bitter: but thou best delivered my soul that it should not perish, thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back.” (Douay Rheims version).
That is a very graphic image of how God responds to our confessing our sins. And there are many, many people who go to confession, and yet have lingering guilt and and continue to carry the burden of their sin(s), even though they know intellectually that the sins are forgiven. They do not see or experience what Isiah states.
I will repeat: I have had a similar experience at men’s retreats, and have found that some of the men have been very positively impacted by similar ritual.
We are not only intellectual; we are also emotional - whether we think we are men and men don’t have emotions, or should not have emotions, or that emotions are for the weak and namby pamby.
Will such a ritual touch each man in a positively emotional way? Of course not. Some don’t want to confront any emotions they may have for their sin(s). and so the baggage continues to be carried.
While we are at it, I don’t recall that communal Reconciliation services are laid out in rubrics anywhere near as absolute as some posters herein seem to think they are. As I noted, I would not be the least bit surprised to find a conservative bishop having no problem with the insertion of such a ritual.
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otjm
Guest
You seem to equate a priest continuing to sit in the confessional with no one coming as having some sort of lack of emphasis on the sacrament. There are not too many parishes (as in, I have yet to find one) which have 30 to 45 minute weekly confession schedules with people lined up knee deep and not being able to confess.
My (newer and recently ordained) pastor set up a second time, on Wednesday evenings. That in itself is subtle but effective evangelization of the sacrament. We have the privilege of reaping the benefits of lousy catechesis, which started shortly after Vatican 2; that ship is not going to be turned around quickly at all. Gradually it will, but it is going to take a lot of time.
As to precedent, you have not been around as long as I have; it is most certainly not something brand new. And your speculation that it might convince someone to not go to confession is made out of whole cloth. It has no foundation in fact.
Any time I have experienced something similar, it was not announced in advance, so no one knew it would occur; and they showed up for the purpose of the sacrament - either a retreat or a communal Reconciliation service - which they all knew beforehand was about your auricular confession. That is why they came.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
By ritual… you don’t mean a church ritual of burning sins right. Just some well meaning person’s idea.
Where does this stuff come from!? Is there a book written in pink that smells of flowers and puppy tears that I’ve never seen?
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felsguy
Guest
Ah, maybe there’s hope after all.
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goout
Guest
It’s not really a man’s quiche until you add some mushrooms.
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otjm
Guest
I am going to choose not to respond in kind. I am not trying to get you to like such a ritual; only to suggest that you are overstating your dislike for such a ritual and projecting your attitude towards it onto others.
And it certainly is not something new, even though you have not experienced it.
Like I said - Isiah 38: 17 is an adequate basis for the idea, whether or not you like it.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Where are the liturgical guidelines so I may read about it.
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Phemie
Guest
You’ll find the Rite for Form II of Reconciliation [here.
](http://courseweb.stthomas.edu/jmjon...900_2000CE/Rite_of_Reconciliation_Form_II.htm)Many that I have attended have added a ritual action (like the aforementioned burning of a twig) between the examination of conscience and private confession.
If I could attend a Form II Rite every month I would, it’s my preferred method of confession. There is only one problem with that in our parish. We had this rite twice a year (Advent and Lent) for over a decade but it included general absolution. The church was usually full. When Rome made it clear that this was an abuse of general absolution and the Bishop ordered it stopped, not many people bothered to attend a Reconciliation service again and, of those who did, many left without confessing. Yes, I know, we’re not supposed to notice but when you’re involved in the preparation of this celebration and responsible for closing up after you notice if everyone’s gone within 10 minutes. It was probably not helped that the various pastors opted to alter the rite and rather than hear confession after the Examination of Conscience, they skipped to the rest of the rite and heard confession after the final blessing.
Sadly, for many years, (2005-2013) we had no regularly scheduled time for Reconciliation although we were always free to tap Fr. on the shoulder before Mass and ask to him to hear our confession.
Our last Pastor (2012-2016) refused to use Form II, particularly during Advent and Lent because, in his opinion, it gave the wrong impression that confession was only important twice a year. Within a few months of his arrival he re-instituted weekly confession on Saturday afternoon and was always willing to hear our confession before Mass if we’d been unable to attend on Saturday.
Our new priest did use Form II this past Advent. There were 3 priests present, for a congregation that numbered, IIRC, 12. But he followed the ritual to a T, and everyone seemed to go to confession before we all gathered again for the act of thanksgiving and the dismissal.
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