Reconciliation's effect on "reality"

[GregorEisenhorn]

This may have been skirted on in other posts but I’ve exhausted the search option so I will ask it here (I apologize if I just haven’t found it) :
I have heard from more than one priest a conflicting theological answer to a query of mine concerning what “happens” to a sin once God forgives it. Now I accept the notion that when one uses the term “God forgets your sins” it means He chooses not to remember them, though of course He could always do so if He wanted to. That said, it is taken as a tenet that He never would - i.e. Reconciliation is permanent and irreversible - as long as all of the requirements are met, your sins are forgiven and that will not change. Here’s my question:
If God forgives a sin, and it does not affect anyone else nor has any impacts on anything save perhaps your own memory, would it be accurate to say that that sin basically never existed? I mean, if it has no impact except to have made you a better person by avoiding it forever, then would it not be fair to say that the only thing that really happened was a lesson since God does not acknowledge the sin and thus basically erases it from existence? This may seem more logical if one considers the oft said phrase “you walk out of confession a new person” or that God basically builds you anew - though perhaps better than before…

 

[Mike_Dye]

I believe that you are right on the money when you say that our sins are forgiven when we confess them with sorrow and the intention to never commit them again. Scripture tells us that God has forgot the sins we confess.
So far I am on board with you , my problem with your thinking is that our sin never existed. It did exist and has ramifications that have to be addressed. I know it seems private, secret sins that on the surface don’t seem to hurt anyone could be glossed over.
Not so, there is no such thing as private sin. We are all members of “The Mystical Body of Christ” and as members of that Body everything we do effects the Body. Sin, any sin, great or large effects the body in a negative fashion, thus delaying what we pray for when we pray"Thy Kingdom Come".

 

[LilyM]

It’s not really the sin itself that no longer exists, rather the eternal guilt of the sin - the aspect of it which eternally damns you.

Being free of that eternal guilt, of course, doesn’t mean that one isn’t obliged to pay a temporal debt for the sin - in the same manner as being forgiven for breaking someone’s window doesn’t remove your obligation to fix the damage to the window, as far as lies within your power.

 

[GregorEisenhorn]

Thank you - both worthy replies. But I am still intrigued - what if the sin has no further temporal effects or penalties - say the debt has been fully repayed. If you committed the sin and you forget it happened, and God no longer acknowledges it, and the effect is completely gone… is the sin not basically non-existent? I mean you could always remember the debt you owe the Lord for forgiving you for something, but once forgotten, is it not “gone?” - and I apologize if this is akin to the "if a tree falls in the forest and no-one is around to hear it etc etc -
It is just that I am puzzled by it since a forgiven and payed for sin would seem to still hold some power of one, like in terms of discouragement or inability to move forward - when in fact it is an established truth that God’s love defeats sin utterly…

 

[LilyM]

Thank you - both worthy replies. But I am still intrigued - what if the sin has no further temporal effects or penalties - say the debt has been fully repayed. If you committed the sin and you forget it happened, and God no longer acknowledges it, and the effect is completely gone… is the sin not basically non-existent? I mean you could always remember the debt you owe the Lord for forgiving you for something, but once forgotten, is it not “gone?” - and I apologize if this is akin to the "if a tree falls in the forest and no-one is around to hear it etc etc -
It is just that I am puzzled by it since a forgiven and payed for sin would seem to still hold some power of one, like in terms of discouragement or inability to move forward - when in fact it is an established truth that God’s love defeats sin utterly…

I’d agree - if one has no temporal debt or eternal debt remaining upon one’s sins one one’s soul will, after all, be perfect and go straight to Heaven.

But …

who is it who keeps score over this temporal debt? One only needs to see a crucifix to know how horrendous the consequences of sin - all sin - are.

So how can one ever therefore be certain of having paid off all the debt of sin, which not only offends our neighbour and harms ourselves, but offends God on a temporal level by wounding His body, the Church. Being infinitely pure I’d imagine He is more offended than anyone else by our sins.

You have a point though. We certainly shouldn’t obsess over past sins to the point where the memory paralyses us from moving onward and upward in spiritual terms, just like we shouldn’t obsess over past mistakes in other areas.

But by the same token, SOME memory of them can be helpful - they are learning tools for future improvement, they keep us from becoming puffed up with undue pride, they keep us mindful that we will ALWAYS need God’s help - and to work on ourselves - to avoid future sin and mistakes.

 

[puzzleannie]

the sin is absolved, forgiven and forgotten. the reality which does not change is the damage that was wrought by the sin. we are bound to make reparation, at least in token, as far as possible, but usually that is not possible. If I killed somebody he is still dead, if I wounded with words or actions, the wound remains, the damage to my marriage, to a relationship, to the planet, or whatever harm I caused still remains, as does the just punishment for that evil. This is the guilt or punishment remitted by sacrifice and mortification in this world and in purgatory if it remains after death.

 

[Michael_David]

Gregor asked: “If God forgives a sin, and it does not affect anyone else nor has any impacts on anything save perhaps your own memory, would it be accurate to say that that sin basically never existed? I mean, if it has no impact except to have made you a better person by avoiding it forever, then would it not be fair to say that the only thing that really happened was a lesson since God does not acknowledge the sin and thus basically erases it from existence?”

I agree with this part… but there is another.

While this sin was being committed, what was not being done? The so called sins of omission! Depending on the sin and how long one was ‘into’ it, how much ‘good’ was not being addressed? How many others (that were looking for kindness), got bitterness? How many obligations got pushed onto others backs? How many times was one an occasion for another to react sinfully? Depending on the sin, there are others…

Confession/Forgiveness addresses the one confessing, (does it call for amends/repairs), if those are done also, this part is done. But say too, one’s little brother watched from a distance and saw all the mischief in a ‘fun’ sorta way (he did not see the confession, the guilt, the cost of repair, or the things between you and Christ)… your little brother just saw the ‘fun’. Now he, feeling not so great, does what you did to get his feelings strung higher, and maybe the attention he saw you get. Now, your sin, not only had consequences for you, and for the things and one’s that were omitted, but also for an example for another to sin also. Now one was an ‘occasion’ for another to sin.

What I am trying to say, there is no sin that is so simple as to hurt no one but the one doing it. One, after confession and repair is leaving all the ‘loose ends’ for Christ to clean-up. And yes, you not doing that anymore, is good in God’s eye’s. And once that stops being done, the loose ends will be able to be cleaned up also, and that will be taken care of, instead of being constantly replenished.

I have heard it put to me by a Priest this way: Take a pillow full of feathers up to the bell tower on a windy day and let them go to fly in the wind(this is the sin)… now go and collect them all again!!! Can you? Every last one??? (This is the ‘real’ amends.) This is what Christ has forgiven. But it does keep HIM busy… because of that little sin that hurt nobody but you???

Therefore, give Christ/God your due thanks and worship… knowing what it REALLY is that they are doing for you… while you are trying to DO better and not do it again.

 

[StCsDavid]

If God forgives a sin, and it does not affect anyone else nor has any impacts on anything save perhaps your own memory, would it be accurate to say that that sin basically never existed? I mean, if it has no impact except to have made you a better person by avoiding it forever, then would it not be fair to say that the only thing that really happened was a lesson since God does not acknowledge the sin and thus basically erases it from existence?

Because we live in communion with this mystical body of Christ, it is impossible for one’s sin not to effect the entire body. Sin is not solely an individualistic experience. It wasn’t just a lesson as real damage was done to this communion. While the sin may be destroyed, I’m not sure one can say that its ripple effect is diminished. Good question, and I will contemplate this further.

 

[GregorEisenhorn]

I think all of your answers are very well thought out and all have veracity - but I am still bothered by the thought that sin still “lives on.” I mean, just considering ones that are say personal, as “not-outwardly-impacting” as possible, it seems to me as though it the sin still holds power in itself. Whereas what I’m sort of leaning to even after reading all of your thoughts is the idea that the Lord is so powerful and has sacrificed so much for us that His almighty power and love can turn the negatives into positives - completely. I think that should apply especially to personal, non-outward acting actions.

 

[Michael_David]

Gregor, by “non-outwardly-impacting” sin, do you mean things done in secret? And/or weaknesses in one’s personality/character?

 

[StCsDavid]

I think all of your answers are very well thought out and all have veracity - but I am still bothered by the thought that sin still “lives on.” I mean, just considering ones that are say personal, as “not-outwardly-impacting” as possible, it seems to me as though it the sin still holds power in itself. Whereas what I’m sort of leaning to even after reading all of your thoughts is the idea that the Lord is so powerful and has sacrificed so much for us that His almighty power and love can turn the negatives into positives - completely. I think that should apply especially to personal, non-outward acting actions.

So do you posit that the positives are from God but the negatives are not? Joy and sorrow are twin sisters. Both were created by God to serve a purpose. I’m not sure you can say that the sin itself lives on as much as the temporal effects of the sin continue. As a personified example, one day we may capture and/or kill Osama bin Laden, but the effect of his existence in the world will live on for many generations. The lessons learned from those negative effects could be the positive that emerges.

 

[Nickkname]

From “Divine Mercy In My Soul,” the diary of St. Faustina (bold is my emphasis)

I apologized to the Lord, all the more ashamed because of the fact that in my conversation with Him after Holy Communion this very morning I had promised to be faithful to Him. Then I heard these words: If it hadn’t been for this small imperfection, you wouldn’t have come to Me. Know that as often as you come to Me, humbling yourself and asking for My forgiveness, **I pour out a superabundance of graces on your soul, and your imperfection vanishs before My eyes, and I see only your love and your humility. you lose nothing but gain much… **(1293)

Write, speak of My mercy. Tell souls where they are to look for solace; that is, in the Tribunal of Mercy. There the greatest miracles take place [and] are incessantly repeated. To avail oneself of this miracle, it is not necessary to go on a great pilgrimage or to carry out some external ceremony; it suffices to come with faith to the feet of My representative and to reveal to him one’s misery, and the miracle of Divine Mercy will be fully demonstrated. Were a soul like a decaying corpse so that from a human standpoint, there would be no [hope of ] restoration and everything would already be lost, it is not so with God. The miracle of Divine Mercy restores that soul in full. Oh, how miserable are those who do not take advantage of the miracleof God’s mercy! You will call out in vain, but it will be too late. (1448)

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Gregor
Maybe you are confused about what sin is?

 

[GregorEisenhorn]

No, Texan, I’m quite certain I know what sin is - but yes, as per Michael David’s comment, I’m thinking more along the lines of “secrets” or at least things that no one else knows since you are obviously not going to advertise your faults to anyone (save of course to the Person of Christ in the priest during confession.)
And to StCs David, I posit that the negatives from sin are what can be destroyed - I am well aware of the crosses that the Lord can put in our path to bring us closer to Him (i.e. some “negatives” can come from the Lord, though I must say I would never phrase it that way since His will is perfect and thus nothing from Him can ever really be “negative.”) Your Osama example is a good one, but again, I mean only the lesser, smaller sins. I would think my thesis would be completely destroyed if even one other person were involved besides the Lord and you.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

No, Texan, I’m quite certain I know what sin is …

… Now I accept the notion that when one uses the term “God forgets your sins” it means He chooses not to remember them, though of course He could always do so if He wanted to… Here’s my question:
If God forgives a sin, and it does not affect anyone else(*) nor has any impacts on anything…, would it be accurate to say that that sin basically never existed? … no impact except to have made you a better person…the only thing that really happened was a lesson since God does not acknowledge the sin and thus basically erases it from existence?..

It is difficult to find an example by which an accurate definition of sin can be used? * all sins are against god and thus all involve the same parties. Injuries are against people and do not require sin (as accidents). When a person kills another unjustly he can not undo the injury; yet the sin of refusing God’s commandment can be forgiven (not forgotten). Once forgiven the offender who remains an offender forever even after life is returned to grace.

hope that helps

 

[GregorEisenhorn]

Thanks Texan, that last line is actually really good. A little harsh maybe, but sin is a serious matter so I suppose it is rightly so. In terms of a good example, I guess we could take the sin of maybe having thoughts of hurting someone in roadrage for example. You might be flustered, and have elevated your heartrate, and have offended God, but once you’ve confessed it are not the effects of such an event so small that they might as well have not existed? And once no longer acknowledged by God after Reconciliation and no longer by you because of forgetfullness, who can say that you ever wanted to take out that random middle aged man from his car and beat him for almost causing an accident? You never even knew who he was and he certainly didn’t know who you were (unless you honked, maybe, but let’s say for the sake of argument you didn’t). So I guess I’m thinking more along the lines of sins that take you away from grace, but don’t really affect anything else (and the heart rate thing disposing you to dying from heart disease later on can be suggested but one small event really can’t have that big an impact unless you’ve been doing it a while - trust me I’m in public health )

 

[Michael_David]

Gregor, your example of (suppressed) road-rage is nice. Other then what it causes physically to you… no one else knows, since it was not ‘acted on’. I would call that an occasion of sin (resisted the temptation) rather then a commission of sin.
However, It does show one a certain personality make-up. What will happen the next time one encounters this situation? Why is one so up-tight with others doing what others do? Suppressing anything is not good for maintaining one’s inner peace… and as such, will maybe flair up again, even at a lessor event.
It is tough to accept a wrong from another when one has not done anything to warrant it… and to be able to let it go as part of the living of life. Altho, did not Christ live this way? Did He deserve what He got? How did He react? “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do”. And if He asks for those that know not what they do to be forgiven… is it a sin?
It starts on the inside. It’s contained there, this time. But, without knowing what it may become, if left unchecked, where could it lead? And say, on the fifth time it happens, one blows up and unleashes all that repressed anger. When did the sin start? When should of it been addressed? When should of one sought forgiveness… not only for oneself, but for the other one also that caused the reaction.
If Christ’s Peace is with you… it would be very difficult to react in anger. How does one get that Peace? Know, Love and Serve God. It’s not always about your salvation, it may also be about the other guy’s salvation. The Serving part done individually for the others good.

 

[GregorEisenhorn]

Michael David, those are all good points. I merely tried to find an example other than the obvious of lusting after someone since that falls into the very complicated arena of “but Jesus said if you lust after another person you might as well have committed adultery in you heart.” I guess there’s a spectrum of that sort of sin - but I’m sure there are other actions that could perhaps fall into the category of not affecting much. How about kicking someone’s car for taking up two spaces without damaging it or something like that? Either way I think its safe to say it doesn’t matter whether it happened or not, even if it did technically “exist.”

 

[Michael_David]

Gregor, if it exists in the heart, but is not acted on, it’s like Christ being tempted, but not sinning.
The only thing here, it is like a warning, the devil is after you and playing on your weaknesses. All the more, it’s time to turn one’s mind to God for help with the devil first, and remember, where one is weak, He is strong. It’s really an invite to get closer to Christ while He gets closer to you. One should be ‘delighted’!

How God/Christ help one in these times will be ‘tailor-made’ for that person, because, that too will go to and be in the heart. One only has to turn to Him (free-will)(intent), and the help will come. It may help to say an Our Father when it happens. The ‘Thy will be done’ (not the devils); ‘Forgive us our trespasses’ (one knows it is going down the wrong road); ‘Lead us not into temptation’ (where is one?); ‘Deliver us from evil’ (help me with this devil). You can replace the ‘us’ with ‘me’ or ‘I’ to make it more personal. This turns my mind/heart around very effectively. Hope it helps you too.