Reconciling apparent contradictions between church teaching and science

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Hmm…

so in the case of highly ambiguous genitalia, where surgical repair is medically necessary… what should be done?

If a proper distinction cannot be made, are the parents to select male or female for their child? Can this be done in accordance to church teaching? How does this affect the child’s religious upbringing and later choices? Marriage, religious orders…

Is there any example of this actually happening to someone that I could read up on? I have not been able to find any examples.
 
noorez said:
Hmm…

so in the case of highly ambiguous genitalia, where surgical repair is medically necessary… what should be done?

If a proper distinction cannot be made, are the parents to select male or female for their child? Can this be done in accordance to church teaching? How does this affect the child’s religious upbringing and later choices? Marriage, religious orders…

Is there any example of this actually happening to someone that I could read up on? I have not been able to find any examples.
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honestly I’m not sure if the church has addressed this at all as it isn’t that common. I think the thing that most doctors advise parents to do is to avoid gender/genital surgery unless it is medically necessary. Usually after puberty hits and they see what will happen they go from there…like I said, with XY females they won’t ever develop into external males. However most of the time they have to have the internal testes removed after puberty b/c they can become cancerous.
 
noorez said:
Hmm…

so in the case of highly ambiguous genitalia, where surgical repair is medically necessary… what should be done?

If a proper distinction cannot be made, are the parents to select male or female for their child? Can this be done in accordance to church teaching? How does this affect the child’s religious upbringing and later choices? Marriage, religious orders…

Is there any example of this actually happening to someone that I could read up on? I have not been able to find any examples.
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Doing surgery in such cases on an infant at the parent’s selection or preference is highly unethical. The child should be left alone until they are old enough and enough testing has been done to make a confident decision about the situation a with the person’s consent. Surgery otherwise in these cases violates the child’s inherent human rights to self determination, bodily autonomy, and physical integrity of their persons, and is not reconcilable with the call to uphold the dignity if the person. Rather, it is something essentially forced on a healthy child who needs to actual medical intervention because society and the parents are uncomfortable and want a definite change made. Waiting even if it is very difficult is best: the child’s body is their own, and altering it unnecessarily is wrong.
 
Angel_Gabriel said:
honestly I’m not sure if the church has addressed this at all as it isn’t that common. I think the thing that most doctors advise parents to do is to avoid gender/genital surgery unless it is medically necessary. Usually after puberty hits and they see what will happen they go from there…like I said, with XY females they won’t ever develop into external males. However most of the time they have to have the internal testes removed after puberty b/c they can become cancerous.
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Yes, very agreeable. Doing any medically unnecessary surgeries and alterations of children’s bodies is wrong. The child has the right to determine in such cases with their doctors how best to proceed, respect for their physical integrity should be upheld unless there is a clear, actual medical need to intervene.

Of particular tragedy in some cases of intersex children is when parents and doctors intervene and make a decision, and then it turns out later the child’s gender and psychological wiring is very much for the opposite gender, but then it’s too late.
 
Spencerian said:
Hi.

There is no contradiction in so much that Church teachings are *theological *statements, while theories and hypotheses are *scientific *statements. For instance, the story of Genesis was pinned ages before Georges Lemaitre established this now-widely accepted theory. Please note: Lemaitre was not only an astronomer and professor of physics, but a Catholic priest. Turns out, the story of Genesis seems to have themes that the Big Bang Theory has discerned in science, despite the point that Scripture isn’t meant to be scientific, nor was the theory designed around Scripture.

Further, there is a very common false dichotomy in society that suggests that religion is opposed to science (and, thus, argues one against the other). Church teachings do not attempt to explain the physical laws, but it does recognize their effects as teachings believe that God established these for keeping matters in order (literally). Same is true for natural laws, such as reproduction.

The Church isn’t a political or scientific body. As such, you will not see them making statements on “this” or “stating their position on that” unless it there is a matter or faith or morals to discuss.

For more, you can listen to an archived 2012 Catholic Answers Live radio program that argues how religion and science aren’t natural enemies. You can also search the forums for other variations to this common question.

In the matter of genetics, please also note that the father of genetics, Gregor Mendel, was a Catholic Monk, as were many many men and women in history who were scientists but also followers in a faith.

The Church defends the dignity of the* human person* and doesn’t make distinctions on gender. It does not particularly make any statements as to the person’s genetic differentiations. Such people are to be treated with the same dignity and respect and right to seek the Gospel as any other human with fewer or no abnormalities.
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That is incorrect. Look up The Pontifical Academy of Sciences. And the Vatican Observatory:

vaticanobservatory.org/

Peace,
Ed
 
noorez said:
I have had this question in my mind for a bit but wasn’t sure how to ask it but I’ll try any how:
How does the church reconcile apparent contradictions between church teaching and scientific discoveries (male and female only vs intersex persons, monogenism vs genetic analysis/evolution)…
I am looking for a general answer and one that does not explore each of those examples I posted. I just put them there to hopefully make my question easier to understand.
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Well as for the “male and female only vs intersex persons” issue, we live in a fallen world,
we all have something that God did not intend, this includes the fact that there are actual-
ly five different sexes in the world today (including XX, XXY, XO, XYY, & XY). If the world
did not fall into Sin, humans would not get sick, suffer the scourge of nature, and nobody
would be born intersexual, but it all be a perfect Creation.

And evolution, don’t make Genesis do more than it’s supposed to do, that is a big
mistake. Everything in Genesis is “True”, but that isn’t the same as historical fact.

Genesis, as least the early parts of it, are not meant to be read as literal, but it merely explains that there is a God, One God,
who created everything, including us, then we did something that made God mad, and that is why we suffer today, etc…
 
Blacksword said:
Of particular tragedy in some cases of intersex children is when parents and doctors intervene and make a decision, and then it turns out later the child’s gender and psychological wiring is very much for the opposite gender, but then it’s too late.
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Yes, I saw a show several years ago about intersex people and there was one case where a young man had been raised as a girl due to ambiguous genitalia and I can’t recall whether or not he had any sort of surgery (I’m thinking that he did) but when he got older he learned the truth about himself and had always felt that he was a boy, not a girl. He ended up committing suicide later on due to severe depression 😦
 
Razanir said:
What specifically is incorrect? It all sounds right to me 🤷
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“The Church isn’t a political or scientific body.”

The Church has made scientific pronouncements and it offers information on actual science. For example, the obvious, non-religious, disconnect between the fact that everyone reading this began as a human embryo. And since science tells us it’s human, it would be a crime to allow it to die by direct human action.

The Church makes statements about politics and legislation, and it is common knowledge that the Church catches a lot of flak for this. I’d like to add a quote from a non-review at amazon.com: “Keep your Bible out of my government.”

Peace,
Ed
 
I would like to clarify a point…

For the surgery to be performed on the infant, I was assuming a case in which it was actually medically necessary, not just because the parents want hide their child out of shame.

…

However, the world in which we live in still does not really make room for intersex persons.
In the sense that we have application forms in which you have to select male/female, public washrooms are only male/female, etc…
 
noorez said:
I would like to clarify a point…

For the surgery to be performed on the infant, I was assuming a case in which it was actually medically necessary, not just because the parents want hide their child out of shame.

…

However, the world in which we live in still does not really make room for intersex persons.
In the sense that we have application forms in which you have to select male/female, public washrooms are only male/female, etc…
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Things that are vital and necessary for immediate intervention for the child’s health, sure. But often these surgeries are done because the family wants it “taken care of”, they don’t want to keep dealing with what is admittedly a very difficult situation of uncertainty. This is wrong though, and in such cases should not be done until the person whose body it actually is that’s undergoing the knife can make the decision themselves.
 
Angel_Gabriel said:
Yes, I saw a show several years ago about intersex people and there was one case where a young man had been raised as a girl due to ambiguous genitalia and I can’t recall whether or not he had any sort of surgery (I’m thinking that he did) but when he got older he learned the truth about himself and had always felt that he was a boy, not a girl. He ended up committing suicide later on due to severe depression 😦
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I think there you may be thinking of David Reimer. He wasn’t born intersex though: he was born a perfectly normal, perfect baby boy. His parents wanted him to have prepucectomy though (the amputative surgery commonly called circumcision). The surgery resulted in his penis being amputated wholly, and so they then had sex change operation done to him and fed him hormones and tried to raise him as a girl. Yes, he sadly committed suicide in 2004. There was nothing ambiguous about his genitals at birth though. The same moral principle that medically unnecessary surgeries or alterations of unconsenting children’s bodies is wrong still applies though.
 
Blacksword said:
I think there you may be thinking of David Reimer. He wasn’t born intersex though: he was born a perfectly normal, perfect baby boy. His parents wanted him to have prepucectomy though (the amputative surgery commonly called circumcision). The surgery resulted in his penis being amputated wholly, and so they then had sex change operation done to him and fed him hormones and tried to raise him as a girl. Yes, he sadly committed suicide in 2004. There was nothing ambiguous about his genitals at birth though. The same moral principle that medically unnecessary surgeries or alterations of unconsenting children’s bodies is wrong still applies though.
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oh wow! I knew it had been a while since I saw that documentary…so sad 😦
 
I haven’t read every post (sorry), but in a quick scan I didn’t see that anyone has posted this, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
159 Faith and science: “Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth.” “Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are.”
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This addresses the point of the OP. “Apparent contradictions” may be just that, apparent, arising from misunderstandings and prejudices. God in his infinite wisdom created a complicated universe. It is not as simple as people had once thought. Even scientists get it wrong on many occasions. The true nature of the universe is discovered gradually as we examine the universe. Intersex? Evolution? The world is as God created it, and the church does not (and cannot) contradict it.
 
Beryllos said:
I haven’t read every post (sorry), but in a quick scan I didn’t see that anyone has posted this, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
159 Faith and science: “Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth.” “Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are.”

This addresses the point of the OP. “Apparent contradictions” may be just that, apparent, arising from misunderstandings and prejudices. God in his infinite wisdom created a complicated universe. It is not as simple as people had once thought. Even scientists get it wrong on many occasions. The true nature of the universe is discovered gradually as we examine the universe. Intersex? Evolution? The world is as God created it, and the church does not (and cannot) contradict it.
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Thank you for an excellent post.

Because the Heresy of Modernism is present in certain sectors of Catholicism, it is essential for Catholics to completely understand the second part of “truth cannot contradict truth”. It should be obvious that the particular paragraph 159, assumes that readers accept and believe Catholic doctrines. Unfortunately, as we all know, there are people who deny basic Catholic doctrines.

Therefore: there is this second essential condition which must be taken into consideration. In order for truth not to contradict truth – not only do we look at science, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, as CCC 159 says, we can only present the Catholic doctrine provided it is properly understood.
 
Angel_Gabriel said:
oh wow! I knew it had been a while since I saw that documentary…so sad 😦
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Yes, it is a truly awful and sad tale. There are others like it, more than people know. His became famous because he was the kid who happened to be used like a guinea pig by the doctor and medical researcher who had claimed and widely argued that “gender identity” was solely a societal construct and was inculcated into people only by their upbringing. Reimer was the perfect opportunity to “test” his theory out by trying to show if you raised a boy as a girl in every way he would “be” a girl mentally. It didn’t work.
 
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