Reconciling "Ask an Apologist' and the CCC

[Hokomai]

Hi all. Can someone please reconcile this from the catechism with the statement below from "ask and apologist’? One seems to say that the real presence is the presence of the Trinity, and one the presence of Jesus only. I did not realise that in trinitarian belief it was possible to even have a concept of ‘Jesus only’. Thank you.

Catechism
1374 The mode of Christ’s presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend."201 In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."202 "This presence is called ‘real’ - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be ‘real’ too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a *substantial *presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present."203

Ask an Apologist

As for identifying the Trinity with the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, we must recognize that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Jesus only. The Father and the Holy Spirit are spirits and do not have bodies. They did not become incarnate. While the whole divine economy is the common work of the three divine persons, the Catechism tells us: “each divine person performs the common work according to his unique personal property.” (#258) So while Jesus is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit and co-equal with them, we only speak of the Eucharist, and therefore the Real Presence, in terms of HIS body. The indwelling presence of the whole Trinity is a spiritual presence and not an incarnate one.

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

 

[thistle]

Hi all. Can someone please reconcile this from the catechism with the statement below from "ask and apologist’? One seems to say that the real presence is the presence of the Trinity, and one the presence of Jesus only. I did not realise that in trinitarian belief it was possible to even have a concept of ‘Jesus only’. Thank you.

Catechism
1374 The mode of Christ’s presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend."201 In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."202 "This presence is called ‘real’ - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be ‘real’ too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a *substantial *presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present."203

Ask an Apologist

As for identifying the Trinity with the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, we must recognize that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Jesus only. The Father and the Holy Spirit are spirits and do not have bodies. They did not become incarnate. While the whole divine economy is the common work of the three divine persons, the Catechism tells us: “each divine person performs the common work according to his unique personal property.” (#258) So while Jesus is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit and co-equal with them, we only speak of the Eucharist, and therefore the Real Presence, in terms of HIS body. The indwelling presence of the whole Trinity is a spiritual presence and not an incarnate one.

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

There is no contradiction. In both cases they say the body and blood of Jesus is present while the soul and divinity of the Trinity is present. The body and blood of the Father and Holy Spirit is not present because they were not incarnate but the soul and divinity of the Father and Holy Spirit is present.

 

[meltzerboy]

Hi all. Can someone please reconcile this from the catechism with the statement below from "ask and apologist’? One seems to say that the real presence is the presence of the Trinity, and one the presence of Jesus only. I did not realise that in trinitarian belief it was possible to even have a concept of ‘Jesus only’. Thank you.

Catechism
1374 The mode of Christ’s presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend."201 In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."202 "This presence is called ‘real’ - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be ‘real’ too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a *substantial *presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present."203

Ask an Apologist

As for identifying the Trinity with the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, we must recognize that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Jesus only. The Father and the Holy Spirit are spirits and do not have bodies. They did not become incarnate. While the whole divine economy is the common work of the three divine persons, the Catechism tells us: “each divine person performs the common work according to his unique personal property.” (#258) So while Jesus is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit and co-equal with them, we only speak of the Eucharist, and therefore the Real Presence, in terms of HIS body. The indwelling presence of the whole Trinity is a spiritual presence and not an incarnate one.

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

I don’t read this as a contradiction. The Catechism says the whole Christ, not the whole Jesus, Holy Spirit, and G-d the Father. What is more confusing to me is the quotation from the Catechism given by the Apologist, which says “each divine person performs the common work according to his unique personal property.” It’s the last word “property” which I’m not sure of: does it mean “attribute” or “feature”? If so, this is probably an anthropomorphic description since I think Christianity–similar to Judaism–does not believe G-d POSSESSES perfect attributes, but rather that G-d ENCOMPASSES perfect attributes by His very being. At least, I believe St. Thomas Aquinas thought so in his doctrine of Divine Simplicity.

 

[Heuchler]

I have heard that the whole of Heaven is present in the universe as Christ is the trinity and that through our eventual divizination in Heaven, Heaven is by that also present inside of the Eucharist. Not sure if that is worth believing or true but thats one end of the extreme. But I do think that by the “soul and divinity” being present that means at the least the trinity is held within. But as this is Christ’s body, I think we are to focus more on Christ as we receive but that technically all are present.

 

[johnnykins]

It’s why the Trinity is a mystery and why Trinity Sunday is sometimes humorously called “Heresy Sunday.” Try the wording from the Athanasian Creed to get a flavor of the issue:

In part

“And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one;…The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasian_Creed

 

[Hokomai]

Thanks for the interesting responses. I am still struggling with the idea that the three persons are one, and yet it is possible for one person, Jesus, to have something the others do not, namely a body. Does this mean, for example, that Mary, who became the mother of God by giving birth to his body, is the mother of Jesus only? Is she not the mother, therefore, of the trinity?

 

[johnnykins]

Thanks for the interesting responses. I am still struggling with the idea that the three persons are one, and yet it is possible for one person, Jesus, to have something the others do not, namely a body. Does this mean, for example, that Mary, who became the mother of God by giving birth to his body, is the mother of Jesus only? Is she not the mother, therefore, of the trinity?

Of course you are struggling with this issue: it’s a very difficult and mysterious issue. Many early heresies swirled around just these issues.

As to Mary, She is the Mother of God - she gave birth to a person, Jesus, who has two natures: human and Divine. She certainly gave birth to his body, but he is a single person with two natures “hypo-statically” joined. Thus the Council at Ephesus declared she is properly called Mother of God, Theotokos, God Bearer. Jesus is fully God and fully man per Chalcedon. As part of the Trinity he is fully God yet a separate person. He is not the Father or the Spirit, but He is fully God. Similarly for the Father and the Spirit. I don’t pretend to fully understand it.

 

[Will_S]

There is no contradiction. In both cases they say the body and blood of Jesus is present while the soul and divinity of the Trinity is present. The body and blood of the Father and Holy Spirit is not present because they were not incarnate but the soul and divinity of the Father and Holy Spirit is present.

This is not quite right. The Blessed Trinity does not have a soul.

Perhaps the best way to understand this is that the Blessed Sacrament is Jesus, and Jesus himself is both true God and true man. As true man, Jesus has a body, blood, and a soul. As true God, Jesus has divinity – or rather, is divinity.

Thus in the Blessed Sacrament we receive the whole Christ, body and blood, soul and divinity.

 

[Will_S]

What is more confusing to me is the quotation from the Catechism given by the Apologist, which says “each divine person performs the common work according to his unique personal property.” It’s the last word “property” which I’m not sure of: does it mean “attribute” or “feature”? If so, this is probably an anthropomorphic description since I think Christianity–similar to Judaism–does not believe G-d POSSESSES perfect attributes, but rather that G-d ENCOMPASSES perfect attributes by His very being. At least, I believe St. Thomas Aquinas thought so in his doctrine of Divine Simplicity.

Traditionally we say that God has perfections. Some of the perfections of God are that He is all-knowing, all-powerful, all-present, etc.

Every action of God is an action of the Blessed Trinity, as a whole, but we ascribe certain types of actions to certain persons of the Blessed Trinity when we say such things as “The Father created the heavens and the earth”, “The Son redeemed mankind”, “The Holy Ghost sanctifies the Church”, etc. notwithstanding the fact that all of the persons are God and any action of God is an action of the Blessed Trinity as a whole.

 

[Will_S]

Thanks for the interesting responses. I am still struggling with the idea that the three persons are one, and yet it is possible for one person, Jesus, to have something the others do not, namely a body. Does this mean, for example, that Mary, who became the mother of God by giving birth to his body, is the mother of Jesus only? Is she not the mother, therefore, of the trinity?

Yes that is correct. Mary is the mother of Jesus, who is the same person as the second person of the Blessed Trinity. It is not correct to say that Mary is the mother of the Holy Ghost.

However, since Jesus is the second person of the Blessed Trinity, and the second Person of the Blessed Trinity is God, then it is also correct to say that Mary is the mother of God.

The Blessed Trinity is a tough subject as everyone in this thread agrees. It is difficult to understand the Blessed Trinity, but it is possible to make true statements about the Blessed Trinity that can be easily understood, for example:

There is one God.
There are three persons in God: The Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghost.
The Father is God.
The Son is God.
The Holy Ghost is God.
The Father is not the same person as the Son.
The Father is not the same person as the Holy Ghost.
The Son is not the same person as the Holy Ghost.
Jesus Christ has two natures: God and man
Jesus Christ is one person.
Jesus Christ is the same person as the Son.

 

[Hokomai]

There is one God.
There are three persons in God: The Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghost.
The Father is God.
The Son is God.
The Holy Ghost is God.
The Father is not the same person as the Son.
The Father is not the same person as the Holy Ghost.
The Son is not the same person as the Holy Ghost.
Jesus Christ has two natures: God and man
Jesus Christ is one person.
Jesus Christ is the same person as the Son.

So Son = God; and Father = God; but Son ≠ Father ?

 

[Heuchler]

Exactly Hokomai,

The Son is not the Father because the Son is the eternal thought of the Father. The Holy Spirit isn’t the Father, because the Spirit is the love between the Father and the Son. They are all God and unlimited and one being in a sense like a 3-D object. there are three faces of a pyramid but one pyramid. It’s like these are all parts of God. It’s similar to the mind, memory, and will. Each of these are part of the intellect but each perform a different function in that but are all intellect. I know these are terrible analogies but it’s hard imagine what you have never seen. It would be like trying to describe an object in the fourth spatial dimension. You may be able to string off properties but until we enter and become one with the fourth dimension, we can never really imagine what these objects will look like.

But while the Son is not the Father, the Father is within Him, as Christ is God and the Father is God and there is only one God so while they are seperate persons they are still in perfect communion. So to say that the divine Christ is present in the Eucharist means that God is in the Eucharist. To say God is in the Eucharist is to say that the trinity is in the Eucharist.

 

[puzzleannie]

I read Fr Serpa’s answer and my interpretation is the opposite of OP’s. It sounds as if Fr. is trying to make the distinction, which is real, between the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and the in-dwelling of the Trinity in the baptized Christian who is in the state of grace. They are two different theological constructs and without being long-winded Fr. tried to make that point.