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estesbob
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If a person openly and honestly stidioes the Churchs teaching and comes to the conclusion it is ok to rape his neighbors wife does that make it moral?
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Christopher68
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You told me all I needed to know about your position back on post # 261.
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BillP
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Enough with the straw men. Are you so uncomfortable discussing this point that you must resort to making up points to argue? Seriously?
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Worthy5
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“…I am hoping that a few “pro choice” Catholics will face these questions head on and help me to understand how they can claim to be both “pro choice” and Catholic at the same time…”
Well, I did my bit…
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Worthy5
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Question for “pro choice” Catholics…
Our choice is for limited government.
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estesbob
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You refusal to answer the question is duly noted. I was pointing out the absudity of the “primacy of conscience” argument so many disident Catholics try and hide behind.
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gakroeger
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That was not one of the choices or the subject of this thread…Our choice is for limited government.
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Worthy5
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It is when the term “pro-choice” is used.
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gakroeger
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On issues of Church doctrine and other serious issues where the Church has made clear the morality of an issue, yes we are to conclude that their conscience is defectively formed. The thing that “pro choice” Catholics seem to continually disregard is the moral weighting of various issues where they find themselves in non compliance with Church teaching. A favorite of this group during last year’s election campaign was the Iraq war weighting this equally or above abortion.
It appears to me (as I stated in an earlier post) that “pro choice” Catholics apparently do not have a clear understanding of what abortion is. In fact my experience has been that this group goes out of their way to stay uninformed about the realities of abortion. I have had many “pro choice” Catholics tell me they refuse to watch a video or images of the aftermath of an abortion. They refuse to go to websites such as “silent no more” where women who have lived through abortion and can give firsthand accounts of the realities of abortion.
Does anyone find it strange that our culture has become so numb to this tragedy that the media down plays the realities and screams from the house tops when some nut job bombs an abortion clinic and attempts to place all pro life people in that same box. More babies are killed every day then were killed in the World Trade towers in New York on 9/11/2001. Where are the media stories on this? During the Bush administration the media hammered every day the body count in Iraq. In all of the US wars combined starting with the revolutionary war we have lost less than 2 million men and women in the armed forces. Since Roe V Wade we have lost over 40,000,000 souls. Where is the outrage?
Recently it was in the news that a director of a Planned Parenthood clinic in Texas resigned when she learned what abortion really was after watching an ultra sound image of an abortion. A pro life group assembled outside of the clinic helped her find a new job. Norma Rae the women who had the abortion granted by Roe V Wade has become a very active pro life advocate, but let us listen to the politicians who support the special interest that become rich off of abortion, not the people who have lived it. At least one women who formally worked at a planned Parenthood clinic admitted that they passed out placebos instead of birth control pills and defective condoms to teenagers because they needed more abortions to keep their abortion mill running.
How long will Catholics remain supportive of this travesty?
You ask “If that is so, then why is the entire of concept of conscience articulated? Why not just say "follow the Church no matter how you feel about it?” Because conscience does enter this, however, as mentioned above you must understand that abortion is an intrinsic evil and of the highest moral priority, I find it impossible to read each of these entries in the Catechism and rationalize a “pro choice” position for anybody calling themselves Catholic.
I know this is another challenge you will probably pass on, however, please read each of the Catechism entries below and give us your rationalization of why this does not apply to “pro choice” Catholics.
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estesbob
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It took you that long to realize I was a Catholic who adhered to the teachings of the Church?
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Christopher68
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Why don’t you re-read the last sentence you wrote on post #261, and then explain why anyone on this forum should take anything you say seriously?
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Caramel
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What did you do? I don’t see anything in any of your posts that addresses the topic of this thread; "Reconciling Catholic Church teaching and “prochoice Catholics!” Yes you have stated a question which was a quote from another poster and simply responded “Well, I did my bit…”“…I am hoping that a few “pro choice” Catholics will face these questions head on and help me to understand how they can claim to be both “pro choice” and Catholic at the same time…”
Well, I did my bit…
What did you do? I can’t find anything.
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gakroeger
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Because estesbob is following the topic of this thread which is the morality of abortion and not the legal (or government envolvement).
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gakroeger
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Who is misinformed? It appears to me that the misimformed are those on your side of this debate. The evidence that abortion is an intrinsic evil is overwhelming and clearly stated by the Catholic Church in numerous documents.
I don’t know how much time you have spent studying your Catholic faith, however, I have been at it for 12 years now since I retired and I can confidently state without any question in my mind that “pro choice” Catholics are WRONG…
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estesbob
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There is no conceivable way that one can read what the Church has written about this and come to the conclusion that a catholic can vote for a canidate who suports abortion on demand. The debate has take the usual tac-the pro-life side quotes Church teachings backed up by explicit quotes from bishops and the pope. the pro-choice side grabs an out of context line or tow form the cathecism or a footnote from a letter and demand we accept their interpretation of what it means.
And of course there are the usual misdirtections. Pro-life candiates really arent pro-life, govt cant do anything about abortion, nothing can be done until we change the hearts and minds of the people, yada, yada, yada and the carnage goes on
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Worthy5
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There is no conceivable way that one can read what the Church has written about this and come to the conclusion that a catholic can vote for a canidate who suports abortion on demand. The debate has take the usual tac-the pro-life side quotes Church teachings backed up by explicit quotes from bishops and the pope. the pro-choice side grabs an out of context line or tow form the cathecism or a footnote from a letter and demand we accept their interpretation of what it means.
It is called the policy of limited government.
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Worthy5
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So gakroeger, do you not want abortion outlawed?
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Christopher68
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estesbob admitted in his post that rhetoric was of utmost importance to him, and that results don’t matter. That is not a serious position.
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estesbob
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So now you have went from telling us what the Pope reay meant to what i really meant! !
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Benadam
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Government isn’t limited by outlawing abortion. Government is limited by laws that set it’s boundaries of power. There is no axiom that states that laws expand government power. Not outlawing abortion expands the power of government by making it a guardian of a false freedom. A freedom that imprisons the humanity of it’s citizens with govermnent guarding the door of the cell.Our choice is for limited government.
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