Reconciling Catholic Church teaching and "pro choice" Catholics

[elts1956]

Do you have any idea of how it could be proven that an embryo is human from conception? So what is it then? Science has proven the embryo is human. You can’t prove it using biology HUH?? so I would think that it would shift to a moral or philosophical proof but of course you can’t prove it in those fields, either. Can you? I don’t see how but I’m not clear on philosophy or morality.

Of course I believe the Catholic Church to be correct in their reasoning but then I’m not a prochoice Catholic. And now I’m not so sure about the Catechism. What exactly is the Catechism? Can a person be Catholic and disagree with statements made in the Catechism? I’ve had mine for only few months and I am wading through it. I read at the beginning that it is a way of explaining Catholic doctrine to everyone (doctrine being faith and morals) and to be a reference. Every word in it is supposed to be true and I accept that.

But the few religious posts that I have personally received have stated that the Bible makes no reference to abortion. I doubt that these posts were from Catholics; I believed them to be from members of Planned Parenthood who had been instructed in how to debunk any prolife argument. Maybe prochoice Catholics grab onto this sort of argument to justify abortion. I don’t know.

 

[Caramel]

elts1956:
Hello, Elts1956!!

Why are you misquoting me? I didn’t post those words in red!!

That isn’t my quote!!

 

[elts1956]

Do you have any idea of how it could be proven that an embryo is human from conception? You can’t prove it using biology so I would think that it would shift to a moral or philosophical proof but of course you can’t prove it in those fields, either. Can you? I don’t see how but I’m not clear on philosophy or morality.

Of course I believe the Catholic Church to be correct in their reasoning but then I’m not a prochoice Catholic. And now I’m not so sure about the Catechism. What exactly is the Catechism? Can a person be Catholic and disagree with statements made in the Catechism? I’ve had mine for only few months and I am wading through it. I read at the beginning that it is a way of explaining Catholic doctrine to everyone (doctrine being faith and morals) and to be a reference. Every word in it is supposed to be true and I accept that.

But the few religious posts that I have personally received have stated that the Bible makes no reference to abortion. I doubt that these posts were from Catholics; I believed them to be from members of Planned Parenthood who had been instructed in how to debunk any prolife argument. Maybe prochoice Catholics grab onto this sort of argument to justify abortion. I don’t know.

Hello, Elts1956!!

Why are you misquoting me? I didn’t post those words in red!!

That isn’t my quote!!

Hello Caramel. That is my question. If science has not proven the embryo to be human, (but it has) what else could be conceived by a human male and female? The embyro is human as proved by biological science. Did I misread your statement?

 

[Caramel]

Hello Caramel. That is my question. If science has not proven the embryo to be human, (but it has) what else could be conceived by a human male and female? The embyron is human as proved by biological science. Did I misread your statement?

You did not misread my statement; what you did was INSERT YOUR OWN WORDS INTO MY QUOTE!! Do you realize how rude that is? You just don’t take someone’s quote and mess around with the words in it. Now people may read that quote and think that I said those words that you put in large red letters. Do you understand why I am upset?

 

[elts1956]

You did not misread my statement; what you did was INSERT YOUR OWN WORDS INTO MY QUOTE!! Do you realize how rude that is? You just don’t take someone’s quote and mess around with the words in it. Now people may read that quote and think that I said those words that you put in large red letters. Do you understand why I am upset?

I did not misquote you. The post is under my handle and it is my question. Do you know that science has proved the embryo in a human mother is human? Perhaps I misunderstood you to say science hasn’t proven the embryo in a human mother is human? I put my quote in red to differentiate my question from your statement. I am sorry I stepped into your space.

 

[Caramel]

Hello Caramel. That is my question. If science has not proven the embryo to be human, (but it has) what else could be conceived by a human male and female? The embyro is human as proved by biological science. Did I misread your statement?

OK, I am going to try to ignore the fact that you misquoted me but I don’t appreciate it and I respectfully ask that you do not do that to me again. I welcome questions about my quotes but I don’t like it when my quotes are edited. What you should have done was post my quote and then ask your questions below the quote. Why didn’t you do that? I wouldn’t have gotten as angry as I am right now if you had just followed the correct procedure.

OK. Where did you ever get the idea that biological science proved that the embryo is human? Do you have any references? I would be very interested in seeing them. Are you a biologist? I don’t think you are because if you were you would know that one of the basic rules of biology is that you cannot prove anything. You can provide data which point to a certain conclusion, but there is always the** possiblity** that the data you obtained were due to chance. It is simply impossible to prove anything in biology. Your results may be statistically significant but they can’t prove that your data were not obtained by chance.

Now do I believe the embryo to be human? Of course I do and my study of biology is what led me to the conclusion that a new human being and person is formed at conception. But I can’t prove this with biology. Any first year biology student could tell you that!!

 

[Caramel]

I did not misquote you. The post is under my handle and it is my question. Do you know that science has proved the embryo in a human mother is human? Perhaps I misunderstood you to say science hasn’t proven the embryo in a human mother is human? I put my quote in red to differentiate my question from your statement. I am sorry I stepped into your space.

With all due respect, you put your words into my quote. You stepped into my quote. That is how you misquoted me. Would you like it if you stated something and another member took your quote and inserted her own words? Don’t you think you might be upset and feel that you had been misquoted? Everyone who looks at that quote is going to think that I posted those big red letters because they are in my quote..

I think if you have any further problems with how to respond to quotes it should be PM’d to the moderator. This is way way off topic.

 

[elts1956]

OK, I am going to try to ignore the fact that you misquoted me but I don’t appreciate it and I respectfully ask that you do not do that to me again. I welcome questions about my quotes but I don’t like it when my quotes are edited. What you should have done was post my quote and then ask your questions below the quote. Why didn’t you do that? I wouldn’t have gotten as angry as I am right now if you had just followed the correct procedure.

OK. Where did you ever get the idea that biological science proved that the embryo is human? Do you have any references? I would be very interested in seeing them. Are you a biologist? I don’t think you are because if you were you would know that one of the basic rules of biology is that you cannot prove anything. You can provide data which point to a certain conclusion, but there is always the** possiblity** that the data you obtained were due to chance. It is simply impossible to prove anything in biology. Your results may be statistically significant but they can’t prove that your data were not obtained by chance.

Now do I believe the embryo to be human? Of course I do and my study of biology is what led me to the conclusion that a new human being and person is formed at conception. But I can’t prove this with biology. Any first year biology student could tell you that!!

With all due respect, you put your words into my quote. You stepped into my quote. That is how you misquoted me. Would you like it if you stated something and another member took your quote and inserted her own words? Don’t you think you might be upset and feel that you had been misquoted? Everyone who looks at that quote is going to think that I posted those big red letters because they are in my quote..

I think if you have any further problems with how to respond to quotes it should be PM’d to the moderator. This is way way off topic.

Dear Caramel, where did you get the idea that the embryo carried by a female human is not human? You still didn’t answer my question.

No I am not a Biologist, but I can read.

From the website of The Center For BIOETHICS & Human Dignity

cbhd.org/content/human-embryo-research-after-genome

“Every embryo of human origin is genetically a member of the human species, is genetically male or female],”

"To enter the embryo through the eyes of science is to find, not a dormant structure frozen in time but, in the words of Richard Swenson, "a protoplasmic pyrotechnic factory in hyperdrive.“5 Much more than a genetic repository, the embryo is actively engaged in transcribing and translating the genome, synthesizing proteins and macromolecules, arranging intracellular architecture, taking in nutrition, burning oxygen for cellular metabolism, and strategically directing the complex process of cellular specialization on a deliberate trajectory toward actualization of all the functional capacities that typify a being of the species Homo sapiens. Life has begun. And with each cell division the embryo duplicates the entire genetic library with nearly perfect fidelity.”

 

[Caramel]

Dear Caramel, where did you get the idea that the embryo carried by a female human is not human? You still didn’t answer my question.

No I am not a Biologist, but I can read.

From the website of The Center For BIOETHICS & Human Dignity

cbhd.org/content/human-embryo-research-after-genome

“Every embryo of human origin is genetically a member of the human species, is genetically male or female,”

To enter the embryo through the eyes of science is to find, not a dormant structure frozen in time but, in the words of Richard Swenson, "a protoplasmic pyrotechnic factory in hyperdrive."5 Much more than a genetic repository, the embryo is actively engaged in transcribing and translating the genome, synthesizing proteins and macromolecules, arranging intracellular architecture, taking in nutrition, burning oxygen for cellular metabolism, and strategically directing the complex process of cellular specialization on a deliberate trajectory toward actualization of all the functional capacities that typify a being of the species Homo sapiens. Life has begun. And with each cell division the embryo duplicates the entire genetic library with nearly perfect fidelity.

Those are very pretty words but they do not prove that the embryo is human. Your cite is from The Center for Bioethics & Human Dignity - not the Center for Biological Sciences. I have answered your question. But I will provide, from your cite, the following:

Other questions lie beyond the reach of science.** Whereas science deals only with those things which are objectively quantifiable and empirically verifiable, not all truth fits into such categories.** (emphasis added)

Why are you arguing with me? I have a BS in biology, a BA in psychology and an MA in research psychology. I am telling you that you cannot prove anything in biology. OK? I am agreeing with you that a new human being is formed at conception. Why do you insist on haggling with one of the basic rules of biology and most other sciences which is that you cannot prove anything? You can come close but you can’t prove.This is my last reponse to you. I am not going to answer you further because I can see that it does no good and I am still angry that you edited my quote (and BTW putting words in red and making them bigger does not differentiate them from the rest of the quote.)

 

[elts1956]

Those are very pretty words but they do not prove that the embryo is human. I have answered your question.

Doesn’t prove it to whom? There is a difference between the words human and personhood. Proof of an embryo’s “personhood” is a red herring thrown out by pro abortionists to confuse and difuse the issue that a human embryo is a human embryo, nothing less as has been proven by science.

Perhaps you are confusing the two words?

 

[Caramel]

Doesn’t prove it to whom? There is a difference between the words human and personhood. Proof of an embryo’s “personhood” is a red herring thrown out by pro abortionists to confuse and difuse the issue that a human embryo is a human embryo, nothing less as has been proven by science.

Perhaps you are confusing the two words?

If any biologist is claiming proof he or she is mistaken. I am not confusing anything. Why don’t you read this entire thread and then perhaps you will understand why I posted my quote (the one you edited without my permission). You have taken my post out of context.

I am not going to respond anymore to you. You are on my ignore list. If you have a problem you can PM the moderator. This is a thread about reconciling Catholic Church teaching and “prochoice” Catholics. At least read the OP and see what he says about biology. Oh, and I also recommend that you take a basic college level biology course and a few classes in research design and statistics. You might then learn that NOTHING CAN BE PROVEN IN BIOLOGY.

This is way way way off topic.

 

[elts1956]

Those are very pretty words but they do not prove that the embryo is human. Your cite is from The Center for Bioethics & Human Dignity - not the Center for Biological Sciences. I have answered your question. But I will provide, from your cite, the following:

Other questions lie beyond the reach of science.** Whereas science deals only with those things which are objectively quantifiable and empirically verifiable, not all truth fits into such categories.** (emphasis added)

Why are you arguing with me? I have a BS in biology, a BA in psychology and an MA in research psychology. I am telling you that you cannot prove anything in biology. OK? I am agreeing with you that a new human being is formed at conception. Why do you insist on haggling with one of the basic rules of biology and most other sciences which is that you cannot prove anything? You can come close but you can’t prove.This is my last reponse to you. I am not going to answer you further because I can see that it does no good and I am still angry that you edited my quote (and BTW putting words in red and making them bigger does not differentiate them from the rest of the quote.)

Perhaps you answered my question on another post, but you did not answer me directly, so I did not see it.

Sorry you are having a bad day.

 

[Caramel]

Perhaps you answered my question on another post, but you did not answer me directly, so I did not see it.

Sorry you are having a bad day.

Why are you trying to provoke me? What have I ever done to you? My day is fine.
Please do not patronize me. You already misquoted me - wasn’t that enough??

 

[elts1956]

Why are you trying to provoke me? What have I ever done to you? My day is fine.
Please do not patronize me. You already misquoted me - wasn’t that enough??

Just trying to get in the last word. :blushing:

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Let’s get the thread back on topic please. The subject is:
Reconciling Catholic Church teaching and “pro choice” Catholics
Please adjust your quote functions and stop bickering or the thread will be closed.
Thank you.

 

[gakroeger]

Worthy5:
Gakroeger, with all due respect you just do not want to deal with the entire issue. But that is fine my friend. God Bless :sad_bye::console:

No, worthy it is you who refuses to accept the faith you claim to have.

 

[gakroeger]

True, but is the US Government Catholic? And is that the only duty or concern a Catholic can have? And does that concern mean a Catholic has to support the expansive power of the police force of government as the only means?

Worthy, the thing you do not seem to understand is that moral law is older and more authoritive and overrides all civil law of all nations.

 

[gakroeger]

Let’s get the thread back on topic please. The subject is:
Reconciling Catholic Church teaching and “pro choice” Catholics
Please adjust your quote functions and stop bickering or the thread will be closed.
Thank you.

Thank you…

 

[estesbob]

The question was:

Reconciling Catholic Church teaching and “pro choice” Catholics

The answer is: You cant.

I

 

[fix]

Of course the fetus does Fix, but the question is how much govt power are we going to allow in this situation. Arrgh Matey.

:nunchuk:

The correct amount. The same amount you and I get. Why is the baby worth any less?