G
gakroeger
Guest
We pro life people know this, the next question is how do we convince these Catholics who do not know this.
- Status
G
gakroeger
Guest
Thank you (name removed by moderator)
Well put, all pro life people feel the same way, we accommodate those who do not understand this in order to keep a dialog open so eventually they will understand.
As I was reading this morning’s first reading and the excerpt from the book of Tobit from the morning divine office; the bold sentences below struck me appropriate for this discussion, just more evidence that “pro choice” Catholics need to study and understand their faith.
2 Maccabees
20 Most admirable and worthy of everlasting remembrance was the mother, who saw her seven sons perish in a single day, yet bore it courageously because of her hope in the Lord.
21 Filled with a noble spirit that stirred her womanly heart with manly courage, she exhorted each of them in the language of their forefathers with these words:
22 "I do not know how you came into existence in my womb; it was not I who gave you the breath of life, nor was it I who set in order the elements of which each of you is composed.
23 Therefore, since it is the Creator of the universe who shapes each man’s beginning, as he brings about the origin of everything, he, in his mercy, will give you back both breath and life, because you now disregard yourselves for the sake of his law." Martyrdom of Mother and Sons
24 Antiochus, suspecting insult in her words, thought he was being ridiculed. As the youngest brother was still alive, the king appealed to him, not with mere words, but with promises on oath, to make him rich and happy if he would abandon his ancestral customs: he would make him his Friend and entrust him with high office.
25 When the youth paid no attention to him at all, the king appealed to the mother, urging her to advise her boy to save his life.
26 After he had urged her for a long time, she went through the motions of persuading her son.
27 In derision of the cruel tyrant, she leaned over close to her son and said in their native language: “Son, have pity on me, who carried you in my womb for nine months, nursed you for three years, brought you up, educated and supported you to your present age.
28 2 I beg you, child, to look at the heavens and the earth and see all that is in them; then you will know that God did not make them out of existing things; and in the same way the human race came into existence.
29 Do not be afraid of this executioner, but be worthy of your brothers and accept death, so that in the time of mercy I may receive you again with them.”
Tobit 4:14-15,16,19
Be careful, my child, in all you do, well-disciplined in all your behaviour. Do to no one what you would not want done to you. Give your bread to those who are hungry, and your clothes to those who are naked. Whatever you own in plenty, devote a proportion to almsgiving. Bless the Lord God in everything; beg him to guide your ways and bring your paths and purposes to their end.
Well put, all pro life people feel the same way, we accommodate those who do not understand this in order to keep a dialog open so eventually they will understand.
As I was reading this morning’s first reading and the excerpt from the book of Tobit from the morning divine office; the bold sentences below struck me appropriate for this discussion, just more evidence that “pro choice” Catholics need to study and understand their faith.
2 Maccabees
20 Most admirable and worthy of everlasting remembrance was the mother, who saw her seven sons perish in a single day, yet bore it courageously because of her hope in the Lord.
21 Filled with a noble spirit that stirred her womanly heart with manly courage, she exhorted each of them in the language of their forefathers with these words:
22 "I do not know how you came into existence in my womb; it was not I who gave you the breath of life, nor was it I who set in order the elements of which each of you is composed.
23 Therefore, since it is the Creator of the universe who shapes each man’s beginning, as he brings about the origin of everything, he, in his mercy, will give you back both breath and life, because you now disregard yourselves for the sake of his law." Martyrdom of Mother and Sons
24 Antiochus, suspecting insult in her words, thought he was being ridiculed. As the youngest brother was still alive, the king appealed to him, not with mere words, but with promises on oath, to make him rich and happy if he would abandon his ancestral customs: he would make him his Friend and entrust him with high office.
25 When the youth paid no attention to him at all, the king appealed to the mother, urging her to advise her boy to save his life.
26 After he had urged her for a long time, she went through the motions of persuading her son.
27 In derision of the cruel tyrant, she leaned over close to her son and said in their native language: “Son, have pity on me, who carried you in my womb for nine months, nursed you for three years, brought you up, educated and supported you to your present age.
28 2 I beg you, child, to look at the heavens and the earth and see all that is in them; then you will know that God did not make them out of existing things; and in the same way the human race came into existence.
29 Do not be afraid of this executioner, but be worthy of your brothers and accept death, so that in the time of mercy I may receive you again with them.”
Tobit 4:14-15,16,19
Be careful, my child, in all you do, well-disciplined in all your behaviour. Do to no one what you would not want done to you. Give your bread to those who are hungry, and your clothes to those who are naked. Whatever you own in plenty, devote a proportion to almsgiving. Bless the Lord God in everything; beg him to guide your ways and bring your paths and purposes to their end.
F
fix
Guest
We can’t. Only the Holy Spirit can.
The basic issue, as always, is not about any particular argument. The problem is the issue of authority. Who is the authority in this matter? The answer is the Church. She speaks as Christ. Either that is accepted or it is not.
F
fix
Guest
My point is there is no one argument that will convince those who refuse to be convinced.
G
gakroeger
Guest
Well, that is certainly true as is being proven here. Not only is there not one argument that will convince them, there doesn’t seem to be any multiple arguments that will convince them, regardless of how true and powerfull they are.
As I have pointed out several times on this thread, I believe that “pro choice” Catholics fell off the rails prior to the abortion issue, I suspect that they also did not agree with the Church teaching on contraception. These teachings go hand and hand, those who denied Church teaching on contraception ended up disagreeing with the much more serious issue of abortion. And since they play the rationalizion game they cannot even admit what it is, they call it “pro choice” instead of the more accurate term, Pro Abortion.
C
Caramel
Guest
Oh wow. That just brought tears to my eyes. Thank you for posting this. What a wise and courageous woman she was and what wise sons she raised. I wonder how many of us would be this strong if we were put into the same situation.
H
heathernoel
Guest
I agree wholeheartedly. I am in a dilemma. My sponsor willingly had her tubes tied, and has encouraged her daughters to do the same. She wonders why after 3 live births and two still births I haven’t done the same.
I am
but prayerful that eventually, all pro choices (pro abortion) will see an abortion on an u/s.Then their hearts will come home.
C
Caramel
Guest
You’ve brought up an interesting point - that you do not consider “prochoicers” to be Christian, much less Catholic. This is slightly off topic but I wonder how many “Christian” churches other than “Catholic” churches teach that abortion is unacceptable.Pro choice Catholics I do not consider Catholic at all, or for that matter even Christian. If we do not follow the Bible, we’re simply not Christian and I do not know how these people can call themselves Christian in the first place. Unreal!
C
Caramel
Guest
Yes and here we are discussing morality, not law.
C
Caramel
Guest
For a long, long time I disagreed with the Church’s teaching on contraception; at least their teaching on condom use. I kind of believed that the use of condoms was OK because they prevented conception. So even though I would never have used any method of birth control except condoms, by the use of condoms I was going against Church teaching.
I’d like to say that, as I was not a practicing Catholic at the time, I felt no guilt about the use of condoms. But that would be a lie. Deep down inside I knew. I knew it was wrong. I just knew it was wrong and I don’t know how to put that feeling into words.
When I came back to the true Faith and started reading about contraception and how people had been misled by their physicians (who told them that birth control devices stopped conception - were “contra” “conception”) I started to understand why the Church teaches that the use of birth control is wrong. But I still didn’t understand why condoms were not OK as they prevented conception (and at the same time I still knew that somehow it was wrong.) I was obviously quite confused.
It wasn’t until someone on the previous abortion thread explained it that I understood why condom use was also wrong.
Sometimes smart, caring people can tell you why the Church teaches something is wrong and it doesn’t get through your skull. A very good, close, personal friend tried her best for years to get me to understand and failed miserably. But when I read that post it was like a light bulb turned on in my head and I understood.
That is why I think it is so important to discuss abortion, especially with “prochoice” Catholics. I wonder if deep down inside they really know that it is wrong. I was lucky because my confusion was only about a form of birth control, not about how abortion was wrong. But I can see how confusion about contraception and use of contraception can lead down that old slippery slope to confusion and then acceptance of abortion.
C
Caramel
Guest
No that is not the question. The question is how to reconcile “pro choice” Catholics with Church teaching.
I don’t need to respond to this.
F
fix
Guest
Yes, and that goes to my statement about docile submission to Church authority. If we only accept certain teachings based on our own judgment then we are not accepting the authority of the Church. The parts we accept are not accepted based on Church authority, but on our own personal preferences.
G
gakroeger
Guest
Excellent point Caramel, this is one of your best posts. Thank you for sharing it. It proves that moral law truly is written on the human heart and anyone willing to listen to that little voice will be a seeker of truth and eventually come to know the truth. If you choose to drown out that little voice; God is not pushy and the voice will grow very faint and you have to listen very carefully to hear it at all.
I also did not understand why the Church was opposed to contraception back in the sixties when it became prevalent (and when we were starting our family) however, I and my wife were raised to follow Church teaching and we did. We had 5 children and one miscarriage. If we had not followed our consciences as they were developed by our Catholic Schools and our parents, I am sure we would have selfishly decided not to have 5 children. Today, I cannot imagine not having raised each one to be a productive member of society and hopefully there for us in our old age.
Later, after I became more serious about learning my faith, Church history, and the early Church Fathers; I read Humanae Vitae (35 years after it was written) and like you, the light bulb when on. Pope Paul VI clearly hit the nail on the head back in the sixties when he wrote that encyclical. It clearly warns that separating the marriage act from reproduction would lead to an increase in illicit sex which would in turn lead to an increase all of the other things we see today; pornography, homosexual activity, drugs, crime of all kinds, and our topic of abortion. If anyone doubt the truth to this encyclical just listen to the main stream media who have been instrumental in bringing our society to the very low point, they ridicule and demean this Holy document every chance they get and have been doing so since it was written on July 25th 1968.
In spite of what we or our government might think, we and they do not always know what is best for us. God’s plan is not man’s plan and as soon as we try to step into His territory, we are in for a rough ride. This is off topic but the same applies to the massively over blown “global warming” cry from the very same people. Of course we need to be good stewards of the Earth and its resources; however, these people are using this issue to grab more over us and dictate what we can and cannot do.
C
Caramel
Guest
As a prolifer I believe in the sanctity of all human life from conception until death. The emphasis in this thread has been on abortion, which it should be. I recently acquired a book called Victims of Choice by Kevin Sherlock. He has amassed a large amount of data showing that many women who have obtained abortions have died as a direct result of these abortions.
The abortions he talks about (at least from what I have read so far) were mostly done by physicians. These are some of the things that these physicians have done:
(1) leaving the entire dead baby inside the mother’s womb;
(2) leaving large parts of the torn apart baby inside the mother’s womb;
(3) slicing completly through the uterine wall of the mother;
(4) cutting into the intestines of the mother and then telling her to just take a laxative when she can’t have a bowel movement;
(5) letting receptionists provide anesthetics;
(6) cutting off the arm of a child during a late-term abortion (the child survived or maybe I should say the “aborted” child survived sans one arm);
(7) taking five minutes to abort a child and then leaving the facility even though the mother is seriously bleeding;
(8) making bleeding women and teens leave the abortion facility after an extremely short time in the “recovery room”;
(9) attempting an abortion on a woman with an ectopic pregnancy and just stopping when discovering there is no baby in the womb (during autopsy a 10 week fetus was found in the mother’s fallopian tube);
(10) performing an abortion on a woman who didn’t even want one while her children sit in the waiting room (she was there for counseling); then telling her 12 year old child to drive home;
(11) installing a suction tube improperly so that within 30 seconds the mother no longer has a measurable blood pressure;
(12) being so sloppy with the procedure that parts of mothers’ bodies are sliced and parts of babies are found in their lungs…
I could add more. I could add a lot more. But I think this should get the idea across. It is obvious that abortion is not safe for the baby, but it should be obvious that it often is not safe for the mother. And on a personal note, I had a D&C performed on me in a large hospital. After I had been in the recovery room for a short period of time I was dragged into a bathroom and told to get dressed. I fell against the wall and toilet and almost passed out. A staff member told me to hurry up. I managed to get dressed with help from my husband. I was then forced to leave the facility.
I was very lucky. Although my physician performed abortions regularly he didn’t slice through my uterus or cervix or vagina. Lots of other women were not so lucky.
I know that physicians no longer take the Hippocratic Oath. Abortion doctors really shouldn’t take that oath as part of it is “Do no harm.” Desperate women resort to desperate actions and the women who deal with many abortion doctors end up dead as a result.
Abortion is a big business. It makes doctors rich. Where else can you charge someone for a five minute procedure, pocket the money and leave?
Can any Catholic not agree that these physicians are making money on death? Can any Catholic honestly believe that no life is taken? In every case I have read about in this book there is one dead child, with the exception of the aborted child who lived, although with only one arm. In every case I have read about in this book the mother has died.
“What you do to the least of these you do to Me.”
If you are a “prochoice” Catholic, please think about that for a moment and then ask yourself if a child is killed. Can you support and accept that? Ask yourself if a woman is killed. Can you support and accept that?
Can you really accept that??
The abortions he talks about (at least from what I have read so far) were mostly done by physicians. These are some of the things that these physicians have done:
(1) leaving the entire dead baby inside the mother’s womb;
(2) leaving large parts of the torn apart baby inside the mother’s womb;
(3) slicing completly through the uterine wall of the mother;
(4) cutting into the intestines of the mother and then telling her to just take a laxative when she can’t have a bowel movement;
(5) letting receptionists provide anesthetics;
(6) cutting off the arm of a child during a late-term abortion (the child survived or maybe I should say the “aborted” child survived sans one arm);
(7) taking five minutes to abort a child and then leaving the facility even though the mother is seriously bleeding;
(8) making bleeding women and teens leave the abortion facility after an extremely short time in the “recovery room”;
(9) attempting an abortion on a woman with an ectopic pregnancy and just stopping when discovering there is no baby in the womb (during autopsy a 10 week fetus was found in the mother’s fallopian tube);
(10) performing an abortion on a woman who didn’t even want one while her children sit in the waiting room (she was there for counseling); then telling her 12 year old child to drive home;
(11) installing a suction tube improperly so that within 30 seconds the mother no longer has a measurable blood pressure;
(12) being so sloppy with the procedure that parts of mothers’ bodies are sliced and parts of babies are found in their lungs…
I could add more. I could add a lot more. But I think this should get the idea across. It is obvious that abortion is not safe for the baby, but it should be obvious that it often is not safe for the mother. And on a personal note, I had a D&C performed on me in a large hospital. After I had been in the recovery room for a short period of time I was dragged into a bathroom and told to get dressed. I fell against the wall and toilet and almost passed out. A staff member told me to hurry up. I managed to get dressed with help from my husband. I was then forced to leave the facility.
I was very lucky. Although my physician performed abortions regularly he didn’t slice through my uterus or cervix or vagina. Lots of other women were not so lucky.
I know that physicians no longer take the Hippocratic Oath. Abortion doctors really shouldn’t take that oath as part of it is “Do no harm.” Desperate women resort to desperate actions and the women who deal with many abortion doctors end up dead as a result.
Abortion is a big business. It makes doctors rich. Where else can you charge someone for a five minute procedure, pocket the money and leave?
Can any Catholic not agree that these physicians are making money on death? Can any Catholic honestly believe that no life is taken? In every case I have read about in this book there is one dead child, with the exception of the aborted child who lived, although with only one arm. In every case I have read about in this book the mother has died.
“What you do to the least of these you do to Me.”
If you are a “prochoice” Catholic, please think about that for a moment and then ask yourself if a child is killed. Can you support and accept that? Ask yourself if a woman is killed. Can you support and accept that?
Can you really accept that??
C
Caramel
Guest
I believe that the Jewish Faith also teaches that abortion is wrong, but I’m not positive. Does anyone know if this is true?
C
Caramel
Guest
Thanks for the clarification.
M
mark_a
Guest
Can you link us to the above mentioned sledge hammer?
G
gakroeger
Guest
Looks like we scared away all the “pro choice” Catholics, hopefully we were able to plant some seeds that will find fertile ground.
- Status