Reconciling Catholic Church teaching and "pro choice" Catholics

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Respecting the Moral Agency of Women

“To deny a woman the power to make decisions is to disrespect the integrity of her conscience and, ultimately, to deny her full personhood… The lesson for Christians is that Christ-like servanthood can be chosen only by people who have the power to choose.”

Read more: rcrc.org/pdf/moral_agency_women.pdf
Why are you denying a man the power to make decisions? Why do you want to disrespect the integrity of his conscience and, ultimately deny him his full personhood?
That’s off topic. Start another thread if you wish to discuss the power to make decisions.

The discussion on this thread is about abortion not a womans eight to choose. Zamboni. I mentioned this as a diversion in an earlier post. You didn’t argue the point.
 
Respecting the Moral Agency of Women

“To deny a woman the power to make decisions is to disrespect the integrity of her conscience and, ultimately, to deny her full personhood… The lesson for Christians is that Christ-like servanthood can be chosen only by people who have the power to choose.”

Read more: rcrc.org/pdf/moral_agency_women.pdf
Why are you denying a man the power to make decisions? Why do you want to disrespect the integrity of his conscience and, ultimately deny him his full personhood?
Anyway, that’s off topic.
The discussion on this thread is about abortion not a womans eight to choose. Zamboni. I mentioned this as a diversion in an earlier post. You didn’t argue the point.
 
The one reference you offered to validate the many different things you said, Benadam, is a link to an article to prove a “may” happen? It is amazing how much authority you speak with for someone who has none. I hope you don’t impersonate learned authorities outside of this forum.

The one reference you gave seems to help my case as it says the Pope asked this particular Catholic politician “to restrict abortion legislatively, or at least not to be its advocate.”

I doubt that the Pope would say any different to another politician, don’t you Benadam? Then allow me to draw your attention to his final words of “at least do be the advocate of abortion legislation.”

That is the definition of my pro-choice goal. Thanks for helping me prove that my pro-choice position is reconciled with Catholic Church Teaching, according to the Pope.
time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1880977,00.html
 
Why are you denying a man the power to make decisions? Why do you want to disrespect the integrity of his conscience and, ultimately deny him his full personhood?
A man can choose not to have sex with any women who he may not wish to have sex with. That is his power and no one can take it away from him unless he is weakling. This power is also the sacred God-given trust that I keep trying to tell you is the man’s sole responsibility according to the same Church teaching that you keep citing. I don’t know what you’re missing.
 
The one reference you offered to validate the many different things you said, Benadam, is a link to an article to prove a “may” happen? It is amazing how much authority you speak with for someone who has none. I hope you don’t impersonate learned authorities outside of this forum.

The one reference you gave seems to help my case as it says the Pope asked this particular Catholic politician “to restrict abortion legislatively, or at least not to be its advocate.”

I doubt that the Pope would say any different to another politician, don’t you Benadam? Then allow me to draw your attention to his final words of “at least do be the advocate of abortion legislation.”

That is the definition of my pro-choice goals. Thanks for helping me prove that my pro-choice position is reconciled with Catholic Church Teaching, according to the Pope.
time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1880977,00.html
You apparently didn’t read the entire article. As for references they are so enumerous I wasn’t going to post any at all but this article seemed to fit. The Pope is calling for law to protect the unborn. He would oppose you on this thread.
 
The one reference you offered to validate the many different things you said, Benadam, is a link to an article to prove a “may” happen? It is amazing how much authority you speak with for someone who has none. I hope you don’t impersonate learned authorities outside of this forum.

The one reference you gave seems to help my case as it says the Pope asked this particular Catholic politician “to restrict abortion legislatively, or at least not to be its advocate.”

I doubt that the Pope would say any different to another politician, don’t you Benadam? Then allow me to draw your attention to his final words of “at least do be the advocate of abortion legislation.”

That is the definition of my pro-choice goal. Thanks for helping me prove that my pro-choice position is reconciled with Catholic Church Teaching, according to the Pope.
time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1880977,00.html
You apparently didn’t read the entire article. As for references they are so enumerous I wasn’t going to post any at all but this article seemed to fit. The Pope is calling for law to protect the unborn. He would oppose you on this thread.
 
You apparently didn’t read the entire article. As for references they are so enumerous I wasn’t going to post any at all but this article seemed to fit. The Pope is calling for law to protect the unborn. He would oppose you on this thread.
You should have disputed the Pope’s quoted words that I see as validating my particular pro-choice position. That is if you wanted to write a serious, meaningful objection.
 
You are a pretender and your non-specific unvalidated charges, which amount to no more than name-calling, prove that and speak loudly enough for themselves that I need say no more.
 
Hi. Stumbled across this thread so my apologies if repeating stuff.
Some things to consider…

The Didache (chapter 2) from the first century states “you must not murder a child via abortion.”

“child-murder”(Athenagoras), “a speedier man-killing” (Tertullian), “murder” (Hippolytus), “murderer” (Basil), “murder” (John Chrysotom), “murder” (Jerome) etc, etc, etc. catholic.com/library/Abortion.asp

The Second Vatican Council said “Life must be safeguarded with extreme care from conception; abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.” - Gaudium et spes 51

The Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church #233 says abortion “is a horrendous crime and constitutes a particularly serious moral disorder; far from being a right, it is a sad phenomenon that contributes seriously to spreading a mentality against life, representing a dangerous threat to a just and democratic social coexistence.”

Pope John Paul II noted the “unanimity in the doctrinal and disciplinary tradition of the Church” saying the tradition is “unchangeable.” Evangelium Vitae, 62

Archbishop Levada wrote “Pope John Paul II, after consultation among the bishops of the world, declared on his apostolic authority in Evangelium Vitae that this moral doctrine was part of the patrimony of faith taught** infallibly **by the universal ordinary Magisterium of the Church, i.e., the College of Bishops united in their teaching throughout history and throughout the world. A Catholic, to be in full communion with the faith of the Church, must accept this teaching about the evil of abortion and euthanasia.” usccb.org/bishops/reflections.shtml

Ex Cathedra statements are not the only way the Church speaks infallibly

Code of Canon Law 1364 §1, An apostate from the faith, a heretic or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication…

Code of Canon Law 751, Heresy is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and Catholic faith.

Code of Canon Law 915, Those upon whom the penalty of excommunication or interdict has been imposed or declared, and others who obstinately persist in manifest grave sin, are not to be admitted to holy communion.

Even if one still does not believe the Holy Mother Church has spoken infallibly on abortion Code of Canon Law 752, states “While the assent of faith is not required, a religious submission of intellect and will is to be given to any doctrine which either the Supreme Pontiff or the College of Bishops, exercising their authentic magisterium, declare upon a matter of faith or morals, even though they do not intend to proclaim that doctrine by definitive act. Christ’s faithful are therefore to ensure that they avoid whatever does not accord with that doctrine.”

Luke 1:41, 44 - John in the Womb (Greek: brephos)
Luke 2:12,16 - Jesus in the manger (Greek: brephos)

Hosea list the three phases of human life, conception, pregnancy and birth Hosea 9:11
God forms our inmost being and knits us in the womb of our mother Psalm 139:13
God knew Jeremiah before he was formed in the womb Jeremiah 1:5
God called Isaiah from the womb, making mention of his name Isaiah 49:1
God “did not make death, nor does he rejoice in the destruction of the living” Wisdom 1:13

“Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that conception marks the beginning of the life of a human being - a being that is alive and is a member of the human species. There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological, and scientific writings.”

Report, Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, 97th Congress, 1st Session 1981.

“By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception.” (Professor Gordon - Mayo Clinic)

Report, Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, 97th Congress, 1st Session 1981.

Death is not a choice. The father gets no choice, nor does the child and in many cases there is little if any choice for the woman.

Abortion as a right was conned, sorry, coined, by men. The early feminist opposed abortion.“child murder” (Susan B. Anthony), “most degrading and disgusting crime” (Elizabeth Cady Stanton), “antenatal murder” (Sarah Norton), “the ultimate exploitation of women” (Alice Paul). bbc.co.uk/ethics/abortion/mother/early.shtml
feministsforlife.org/history/foremoth.htm

CCC 1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1794 A good and pure conscience is enlightened by true faith, for charity proceeds at the same time “from a pure heart and a good conscience and sincere faith.”
 
You should have disputed the Pope’s quoted words that I see as validating my particular pro-choice position. That is if you wanted to write a serious, meaningful objection.
You misquoted the text. You made it seem like the Pope was advising Pelosi to support abortion.Oy vey!
Here is the jist of the article in a nutshell. Quote from the article:

The brief message — just two short paragraphs — draws no distinction between the moral duties of Catholic policymakers and Catholic judges to work against abortion.

The Pope is calling not just policy makers but judges to work against abortion. And apparently against you as well.
Read more: time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1880977,00.html#ixzz0YFJceQkQ
 
Canto’s post is certainly interesting but unless I am mistaken there is nothing in it that would preclude my particular pro-choice position, which you clearly do not begin to understand. I know it’s a free world but if you can’t add something to this debate besides unserious heckler questions, and if you cannot make posts like Canto’s or bring something new and genuine to the table, then why keep using up limited thread space?
 
You misquoted the text. You made it seem like the Pope was advising Pelosi to support abortion.Oy vey!
You are living in a world of your own if you think I was suggesting the Pope was advising anyone to support abortion. It is very disappointing how consistently you mischaracterize my words, Benadam. I will have to ask you not to address any further posts to me if that is all you can do. I think we see there should be no vote of any kind for the same reason that drunks are not allowed to drive cars.
 
It was interesting to see what Susan B. Anthony had to say in addition to calling abortion “child murder.” Canto’s helpful link also shows what she said on the question of who is guilty for the “crime” of abortion.

According to Anthony, the woman is guilty. Although, she goes on to say: “But oh, thrice guilty is he who drove her to the desperation which impelled her to the crime!”

Elizabeth Cady Stanton, who is quoted describing abortion as a “most degrading crime,” must have seen abortion as a crime of men too. Otherwise, it seems difficult to understand why she would set out to solve a women’s crime by proposing “the complete enfranchisement and elevation of women,” according to Canto’s good-looking source of info.

Sarah Norton, quoted as saying abortion is “ante-natal child murder,” blamed abortion service providers on one hand and public scorn for unmarried mothers on the other, who she said were “despised because of their motherhood.”

feministsforlife.org/history/foremoth.htm
 
I see a certain person has been hard at work trying to justify the murder of the infant in the womb. I have still never had a good answer as to why this poster so desperately wants women to be able to kill their own children. Why is he so hell bent on death instead of life?
 
Zamboni… One thing I’d like to say to you is please, please, stop defending my right to choose I beg you. It has caused me enough pain and loss.
beafedor appears to be making my case for me by begging me, or so it would seem, not to defend her personal right to choose. No complaint with what she asks as I think she has every right to tell me to stay out of her own decision making process. Apparently, she does not want or imagine needing choice in the future for herself and may well have good reasons for deciding to conduct her own personal affairs (no pun intended) according to pro-life principles. At least I hope that’s her logic because if she is motivated by lack of trust in the ability of others to think for themselves then she may be asking for something from me that in the very next breath she is trying to deny of others.
 
beafedor appears to be making my case for me by begging me, or so it would seem, not to defend her personal right to choose. No complaint with what she asks as I think she has every right to tell me to stay out of her own decision making process. Apparently, she does not want or imagine needing choice in the future for herself and may well have good reasons for deciding to conduct her own personal affairs (no pun intended) according to pro-life principles. At least I hope that’s her logic because if she is motivated by lack of trust in the ability of others to think for themselves then she may be asking for something from me that in the very next breath she is trying to deny of others.
So you describe murdering babies as “thinking for yourself”? Amazing.
 
Church Teachings May Not Be Imposed


Catechism states that “a human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience.” The church takes conscience so seriously that Richard McBrien, in his essential study Catholicism, explained that even in cases of a conflict with the moral teachings of the church, Catholics “not only may but must follow the dictates of conscience rather than the teachings of the Church.”

In its last statement on abortion, the 1974 Declaration on Procured Abortion, the Vatican acknowledged that it does not know when the fetus becomes a person: “There is not a unanimous tradition on this point and authors are as yet in disagreement.” This disagreement has a long history as well; neither St. Augustine nor St. Thomas Aquinas, two of the most important theologians in the Catholic tradition, considered the fetus in the early stages of pregnancy to be a person.

Even in a predominantly Catholic country, laws governing access to abortion need not adhere to the official Catholic position. The Second Vatican Council’s Declaration on Religious Freedom reinforced the call for Catholics to respect the positions of people of other faiths.

Despite what many think, the Vatican may not impose teachings on an unwilling faithful. Through the concept of reception, Catholics have a role to play in the establishment of church law.

The popular notion that whatever the pope says on a serious topic is infallible is an exaggeration of the principle of infallibility. While some ultra-conservative groups claim that the teaching on abortion is infallible, it does not in fact meet the definition of an infallible teaching. Since the doctrine of papal infallibility was first declared in 1870, only three teachings have been declared infallible: the Immaculate Conception of Mary, the Assumption of Mary, and the declaration on infallibility itself.

rcrc.org/perspectives/catholic.cfm
 
You are distorting the Catechism the same way you distort the Bible. Anybody can take pieces of the Catechism and distort them to suit their needs the same way people take pieces of the Bible and distort them to suit their needs. That is what you have done, and it is a sad, pathetic stunt. By your logic, we could also steal and rape as long as our conscience says its okay. You have no sense of truth about you whatsoever.

**2271 **Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.74

God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.75

**2272 **Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"76 "by the very commission of the offense,"77 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.78 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.
 
You are only arguing against Catechism and various Popes now. I said nothing in the quote you damn me for but obviously I defer to this interpretation of Catechism until someone comes along takes more initiative than you do in simply reposting what appears on the first page of the thread and elsewhere, again.
 
Hmmm. You post some pretty good posts, but I have to question this one.

How is a person “conned” into partaking in a murder? Women know darn good and well what they are doing: They are not stupid. How can you punish the doctor but give the woman a free pass?
No one who takes a human life will "get a free pass’, but the vast majority of women that get abortions are pressured into it by family members, the culture of death, and even the providers. Some are conned by ignorance. Many young people are brought up on the Planned Parenthood “education model” and honestly beiieve that what is in the womb is not a person, but “the by products of conception”.
 
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