Reconciling evolution and original sin, my husband has lost his faith.

[constantconvert]

My husband has lost his faith because he has come to believe in evolution. He has started taking Genetics and Biology (he likes studying different subjects for fun) and has come to the conclusion that evolution is true and therefore, he doesn’t know whether God exists. Here is the premise he’s starting with.

“Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned” Romans 5:12

“But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive I Corinthians” 15:20- 22

From these two passages and the account in Genesis, it seems that not only spiritual death, but physical death came into the world through the Fall. The verses in Corinthians are speaking of Christ’s physical and spiritual death and resurrection. Physical death (as well as spiritual death) was a punishment for sin and Adam and Eve would’ve had eternal life, had they not sinned.The animal sacrifice that occurred to clothe them may have been the first animal death.

IF evolution is true, and IF he has a correct view of the Fall, then original sin and our need to be saved from it. as well as spiritual and physical death coming into the world via the Fall are bogus. From there he’s made the quick leap to: Therefore the Bible is in error, and now he’s not sure God exists. I fear his immortal soul is in danger.

That’s a very quick summary, and obviously I’ve left many details of his thought process out, but that’s it in a nutshell.

Here’ is my question: If you are a practicing Catholic, how do you personally reconcile original sin, and evolution.

**A couple of requests:
**please don’t bother trying to refute evolution. He has read a kajillion books pro and con, and will not be swayed.

Please be gentle in your answers, as this is extremely upsetting to me (not that he believes in evolution, I don’t give 2 figs about that, but that he is now agnostic).

Thanks for your help.

 

[DanielJT]

Why is it that something God could do quickly He could not also have done slowly?

The Church does not teach that you should or should not believe in evolution.

Also, a proper understanding of evolution along side a proper understanding of the first two books of Genesis really do not challenge each other.

 

[tawny]

Praying to the Holy Spirit to give your husband guidance, direction, strength, fortitude & wisdom in his time of need.

 

[triumphguy]

I’m a practicing Catholic. I believe in evolution and I believe in Adam and Eve.

Pope Emeritius Benedict, Pope St. John Paul II and Pope Pius XII explicitly stated that you can believe in Evolution and be Catholic.

JPII:Link

“In his encyclical Humani generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation, provided that we do not lose sight of certain fixed points… Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than a hypothesis. In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines. The convergence in the results of these independent studies—which was neither planned nor sought—constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory.”

Pope Benedict: Creation and Evolution: A Conference With Pope Benedict XVI in Castel Gandolfo, S.D.S. Stephan Horn (ed), pp. 15–16

The clay became man at the moment in which a being for the first time was capable of forming, however dimly, the thought of “God”. The first Thou that—however stammeringly—was said by human lips to God marks the moment in which the spirit arose in the world. Here the Rubicon of anthropogenesis was crossed. For it is not the use of weapons or fire, not new methods of cruelty or of useful activity, that constitute man, but rather his ability to be immediately in relation to God. This holds fast to the doctrine of the special creation of man … herein … lies the reason why the moment of anthropogenesis cannot possibly be determined by paleontology: anthropogenesis is the rise of the spirit, which cannot be excavated with a shovel. The theory of evolution does not invalidate the faith, nor does it corroborate it. But it does challenge the faith to understand itself more profoundly and thus to help man to understand himself and to become increasingly what he is: the being who is supposed to say Thou to God in eternity.

 

[Shin]

Has he read any of the books that for example Tan Books has out debunking it? Reading only one side is just imbibing propaganda.

 

[GEddie]

1. Evolution is not allowed to be debated on this system in any case.
2. Even if human life was gestated via an evolution, there was still a point when human beings came to be. The mark of human life is not physical proxies such as head size, but a spiritual soul, which of course does not fossilize.
3. It would be those first human beings, however long ago they lived, who would be the carriers of original sin.

4). They would not have had immortal bodies, but would be kept alive by the Tree of Life. So physical death existing before human life is not a problem.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[edwest2]

My husband has lost his faith because he has come to believe in evolution. He has started taking Genetics and Biology (he likes studying different subjects for fun) and has come to the conclusion that evolution is true and therefore, he doesn’t know whether God exists. Here is the premise he’s starting with.

“Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned” Romans 5:12

“But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive I Corinthians” 15:20- 22

From these two passages and the account in Genesis, it seems that not only spiritual death, but physical death came into the world through the Fall. The verses in Corinthians are speaking of Christ’s physical and spiritual death and resurrection. Physical death (as well as spiritual death) was a punishment for sin and Adam and Eve would’ve had eternal life, had they not sinned.The animal sacrifice that occurred to clothe them may have been the first animal death.

IF evolution is true, and IF he has a correct view of the Fall, then original sin and our need to be saved from it. as well as spiritual and physical death coming into the world via the Fall are bogus. From there he’s made the quick leap to: Therefore the Bible is in error, and now he’s not sure God exists. I fear his immortal soul is in danger.

That’s a very quick summary, and obviously I’ve left many details of his thought process out, but that’s it in a nutshell.

Here’ is my question: If you are a practicing Catholic, how do you personally reconcile original sin, and evolution.

**A couple of requests:
**please don’t bother trying to refute evolution. He has read a kajillion books pro and con, and will not be swayed.

Please be gentle in your answers, as this is extremely upsetting to me (not that he believes in evolution, I don’t give 2 figs about that, but that he is now agnostic).

Thanks for your help.

The points you can make are simple:

1. God created an individual Adam and an individual Eve. Had they not sinned, Christ would not have to die as a sacrifice for their sin and the sins of all. Original Sin cannot be measured by science but exists in all of us.
2. If he thinks that’s not true, according to a lot of books about evolution, just pray for him.

There are things only God can do. Believe me, I’ve heard and read all the arguments for evolution but God exists and has the power to do anything. You may have to pray a long time but instead of arguing, just love him and pray to God without anxiety but in faith.

May God bless you and your husband.

Ed

 

[Hans_W]

I blame militant creationists the likes of Ken Ham and Kent Hovind just as much as Richard Dawkins for these problems.

Look at what theologians are saying on this topic. There are very many. In particular I can recommend John Haught, a Catholic theologian (“God and the new Atheism”, “Science and Faith”, “Making Sense of Evolution”).

In the short term, look up Fr. Robert Barron on YouTube. He has a number of short, very good videos on that topic.

 

[grannymh]

Why is it that something God could do quickly He could not also have done slowly?

The Church does not teach that you should or should not believe in evolution.

Also, a proper understanding of evolution along side a proper understanding of the first two books of Genesis really do not challenge each other.

What the Catholic Church teaches is that the various evolution theories regarding plants, bacteria, insects, and non-human animals are in the material/physical world which is the realm of natural science. The Catholic Church does not pronounce natural science doctrines. When it comes to human origin in the image of God, the Catholic Church opposes the basic assumption that a random breeding humanizing population in the hundreds to thousands produced a group of humans over time. The Catholic Church teaches that humankind descended from two sole fully-complete humans which is a population of two.

It is not my intention to discuss basic biology and genetics because I think that the real problem is anger for Original Sin. Usually this occurs because of improper and/or incomplete teaching of the pre-Fall events in the Garden – the first three chapters of Genesis. In any case, it is not my position to judge culpability.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

It sounds like your husband is being rather more specific about creation and original sin than Catholicism is, and is rejecting the particular theory of “What Christianity must teach about creation” that he came up with, and only through that rejecting Christianity.

So then, it appears that the way to go is to show him that other interpretations of Christian doctrine on creation are possible. Such is explicitly stated by the Church.

There are several possibilities of how the two could be reconciled. A particular one is that death for humans entered through the sins of the first human, and that otherwise God would have ensured our physical immortality.

It is also worth mentioning that the ability for new species to come into existence was admitted as early as by St. Thomas Aquinas, though he did not have the scientific details as to how that might occur.

Really though, the main issue is that your husband is reading more into scripture than he must, and then denying these extra pieces that he read into it, and extending that denial to scripture itself. The picture of what exactly happened that early is not revealed in the level of detail that would be required for his argument to work (as stated by Pope Pius XII, and reaffirmed by Popes St. John Paul II and Benedict XVI).

The idea that, before the fall, there was a pre-created garden (no evolution involved) with no more death for any creatures than that caused by Adam and Eve eating various fruits (maybe they were vegetarian, so there was no animal death) is consistent with scripture, but not required by it. I am not aware of scripture ever saying that no animal died before Adam sinned, for instance. This is the idea that your husband is rejecting through evolution.

So suggest to your husband that he has come to believe something that contradicts the particular view of creation that he had, but not all possible views of creation consistent with Catholicism.

 

[edwest2]

I’m a practicing Catholic. I believe in evolution and I believe in Adam and Eve.

Pope Emeritius Benedict, Pope St. John Paul II and Pope Pius XII explicitly stated that you can believe in Evolution and be Catholic.

JPII:Link

“In his encyclical Humani generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation, provided that we do not lose sight of certain fixed points… Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than a hypothesis. In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines. The convergence in the results of these independent studies—which was neither planned nor sought—constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory.”

Pope Benedict: Creation and Evolution: A Conference With Pope Benedict XVI in Castel Gandolfo, S.D.S. Stephan Horn (ed), pp. 15–16

The clay became man at the moment in which a being for the first time was capable of forming, however dimly, the thought of “God”. The first Thou that—however stammeringly—was said by human lips to God marks the moment in which the spirit arose in the world. Here the Rubicon of anthropogenesis was crossed. For it is not the use of weapons or fire, not new methods of cruelty or of useful activity, that constitute man, but rather his ability to be immediately in relation to God. This holds fast to the doctrine of the special creation of man … herein … lies the reason why the moment of anthropogenesis cannot possibly be determined by paleontology: anthropogenesis is the rise of the spirit, which cannot be excavated with a shovel. The theory of evolution does not invalidate the faith, nor does it corroborate it. But it does challenge the faith to understand itself more profoundly and thus to help man to understand himself and to become increasingly what he is: the being who is supposed to say Thou to God in eternity.

The information quoted here is incomplete. Man and woman are special creations.

Ed

 

[triumphguy]

The information quoted here is incomplete. Man and woman are special creations.

Ed

It says so right in the quote from Benedict above:

For it is not the use of weapons or fire, not new methods of cruelty or of useful activity, that constitute man, but rather his ability to be immediately in relation to God. This holds fast to the doctrine of the special creation of man .… herein … lies the reason why the moment of anthropogenesis cannot possibly be determined by paleontology: anthropogenesis is the rise of the spirit, which cannot be excavated with a shovel

 

[Iron_Donkey]

The information quoted here is incomplete. Man and woman are special creations.

Ed

From Humani Generis:

1. For these reasons the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter - for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God.

This is further expanded by later Popes.

It is allowable to believe the human body evolved. The souls are special creations.

Further, if this thread devolves into a debate on evolution, it will likely be closed because of the tendency of such threads to go bad here. In order for the OP to be able to get pointers towards resources that she may find helpful, it would probably be best not to take it in that direction.

 

[constantconvert]

Praying to the Holy Spirit to give your husband guidance, direction, strength, fortitude & wisdom in his time of need.

Thank you!

I’m a practicing Catholic. I believe in evolution and I believe in Adam and Eve.

Thank you, I will check into those links.

Has he read any of the books that for example Tan Books has out debunking it? Reading only one side is just imbibing propaganda.

Yes, he’s read both sides.

1. Evolution is not allowed to be debated on this system in any case.
2. Even if human life was gestated via an evolution, there was still a point when human beings came to be. The mark of human life is not physical proxies such as head size, but a spiritual soul, which of course does not fossilize.
3. It would be those first human beings, however long ago they lived, who would be the carriers of original sin.

4). They would not have had immortal bodies, but would be kept alive by the Tree of Life. So physical death existing before human life is not a problem.

ICXC NIKA.

Interesting. Thank you. So you’re saying that hominids or neanderthals or whatever, who lived before Adam and Eve didn’t have souls?

 

[edwest2]

Pope Benedict:

“I find it important to underline that the theory of evolution implies questions that must be assigned to philosophy and which themselves lead beyond the realms of science,” the pope was quoted as saying in the book, which records a meeting with fellow theologians the pope has known for years.

"In the book, Benedict reflected on a 1996 comment of his predecessor, John Paul II, who said that Charles Darwin’s theories on evolution were sound, as long as they took into account that creation was the work of God, and that Darwin’s theory of evolution was “more than a hypothesis.”

“The pope (John Paul) had his reasons for saying this,” Benedict said. “But it is also true that the theory of evolution is not a complete, scientifically proven theory.”

"Benedict added that the immense time span that evolution covers made it impossible to conduct experiments in a controlled environment to finally verify or disprove the theory.

“We cannot haul 10,000 generations into the laboratory,” he said."

Ed

 

[constantconvert]

But what about the above Bible verses? Don’t they indicate that physical death is a direct result of original sin? What is the teaching of the Church on this?

 

[triumphguy]

But what about the above Bible verses? Don’t they indicate that physical death is a direct result of original sin? What is the teaching of the Church on this?

If Adam and Eve are kept alive by the Tree of Life then expulsion from the Garden due to sin will result in their eventual death.

 

[triumphguy]

Pope Benedict:

“I find it important to underline that the theory of evolution implies questions that must be assigned to philosophy and which themselves lead beyond the realms of science,” the pope was quoted as saying in the book, which records a meeting with fellow theologians the pope has known for years.

"In the book, Benedict reflected on a 1996 comment of his predecessor, John Paul II, who said that Charles Darwin’s theories on evolution were sound, as long as they took into account that creation was the work of God, and that Darwin’s theory of evolution was “more than a hypothesis.”

“The pope (John Paul) had his reasons for saying this,” Benedict said. “But it is also true that the theory of evolution is not a complete, scientifically proven theory.”

"Benedict added that the immense time span that evolution covers made it impossible to conduct experiments in a controlled environment to finally verify or disprove the theory.

“We cannot haul 10,000 generations into the laboratory,” he said."

Ed

This is an example why I love Pope Benedict’s thinking - he asserts what is assert-able, and just states plainly when something is not.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

But what about the above Bible verses? Don’t they indicate that physical death is a direct result of original sin? What is the teaching of the Church on this?

Physical death for humans is a direct result of original sin. It is not asserted whether or not physical death for non-humans is also a result of original sin. It is not asserted how it is that this physical death would have been avoided had original sin not occurred. It is a plausible reading that the tree of life would have given immortality, but the literalness of the passage is not known far enough to know if that was an actual physical tree.

God, being God, could grant or remove immortality in any number of ways (simply by willing it to be so, or through some secondary cause such as a tree with certain effects).

 

[edwest2]

But what about the above Bible verses? Don’t they indicate that physical death is a direct result of original sin? What is the teaching of the Church on this?

From Humani Generis:

“37. When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.[12]”

Ed