Reconciling Evolution with Adam and Eve

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Originally Posted by Nita
You know, I don’t think there is any official Catholic teaching, one way or the other, concerning whether or not there was plant and/or animal death prior to the fall. Church teaching is that human death resulted from the fall.
It refers to both. The redemption accomplished by Jesus involves not only the restoration of supernatural life to our soul, but also the resurrection of our bodies at the end of the world.

What is really interesting is that in the Hebrew, “die” is there twice - “…you shall die, die.” The Douay Rheims translates the double occurance “…thou shalt die the death”.

Since my first post on this thread, I’ve been searching to find anything written about death in the animal world (Summa Theologica, CCC, commentaries, etc.). And I can’t find a thing. So far, I have no idea where the concept of animal death being a result of Adam’s sin came from. I know I thought it was part of Catholic teaching for a long time - but if it is, it’s certainly well hidden!!🙂 Still have more commentaries to check out.

Nita
 
Ed, you generalize when you suggest that I am calling all the Bible myth. The biblical narrative over its many Old and New Testament books is composed of a wide range of genres, from myth and legend to history, prophecy, apodictic and casuistic law, poetry, and wisdom literature. If you study scripture carefully, you will see that the book of Genesis has the character of foundational cosmogonic myth, much like the myths of other peoples. It is particularly reflective of other Ancient Near Eastern myths. To say that the creation story in Genesis 1-2 is myth is not in any way to suggest that the gospels are myth.

What concerns me about your absolutist position is that it effectively renders Catholic thought and practice a cultural backwater. When Catholics pontificate falsely about natural science – in a way that is recognized as patently false by scientific experts – how can you expect scientists to draw any but negative conclusions about anything a Catholic has to say? your position is terribly damaging to the credibility of the Chruch just at the moment when the integrity of the Catholic voice is sorely needed in important moral debates. Please study some science. Better yet, read the works of Roman Catholic biologists such as Celia Deane Drummond or Ken Miller, or of Catholic theologians who understand science and have articulated sophisticated theological engagement with it, such as John Haught of Dennis Edwards.

Prayerfully yours,
Petrus
Let me be clear. God communicated directly to some, like Moses, and through the power of the Holy Spirit to others. Catholic teachings hold that the Old Testament is intimately connected to the New Testament. Adam and Eve were created by God. There were no pre-men and pre-women. To hold my words up as singularly damaging is to create a falsehood.

To frame the issue as between the Church and scientists is a falsehood. The Church is not guided by scientific experts, it is guided by the Holy Spirit of God. That is the credibility it needs. For you to suggest it needs more than that is presumptuous on your part and devisive.

The Church has spoken clearly and articulately about the important moral issues of the day. It does not need to consult with me.

God bless,
Ed
 
If you study scripture carefully, you will see that the book of Genesis has the character of foundational cosmogonic myth, much like the myths of other peoples. It is particularly reflective of other Ancient Near Eastern myths. To say that the creation story in Genesis 1-2 is myth is not in any way to suggest that the gospels are myth.
A myth is a lie. Therefore, you just said that the Bible is a lie. Therefore, the entire Christian religion is founded upon a lie. Niiiiiiice. :rolleyes:

If you study the Bible carefully you’ll see that over and over and over in both the OT and the NT the writers claimed to be recording actual history that actually happened in actual real-life. That is the opposite of a myth.
What concerns me about your absolutist position is that it effectively renders Catholic thought and practice a cultural backwater.
What concerns me about your position is that you give the impression of caring more about your reputation with Men than with God. It’s one thing to muddle and misquote scientific laws. I agree that that is a bad thing to do. It’s a wholly different matter to water down the Bible so that it comports with theories that can never be proved or that directly contradict the Bible. People in Jesus’ day largely rejected him because he didn’t say the things they agreed with. Somehow Jesus was okay with that. He didn’t compromise truth. Ditto Peter and Paul and the rest of the Apostles. Ditto a great many of saints over the centuries.

Consider whether or not we should alter our belief in the bodily, physical, actual, literal resurrection of Jesus. Such a resurrection is wholly contrary to all laws of science.
 
A myth is a lie. Therefore, you just said that the Bible is a lie. Therefore, the entire Christian religion is founded upon a lie.

If you study the Bible carefully you’ll see that over and over and over in both the OT and the NT the writers claimed to be recording actual history that actually happened in actual real-life. That is the opposite of a myth.
“Myth” has an everyday meaning and a technical literary meaning. The everyday meaning is, as you said, a lie. The technical literary meaning however, refers only to a genre of literature, irrespective of the veracity of the material.
 
There were no pre-men and pre-women. To hold my words up as singularly damaging is to create a falsehood.

To frame the issue as between the Church and scientists is a falsehood. The Church is not guided by scientific experts, it is guided by the Holy Spirit of God. That is the credibility it needs. For you to suggest it needs more than that is presumptuous on your part and devisive.

God bless,
Ed
Ed, you are admirably devoted to our Catholic faith. But I strongly recommend that you take some courses in archaeology, biology, and physics. The records of civilization antedate the biblical “Adam and Eve” – at least in the Young Earth 6,000 year reckoning – by thousands of years. And human prehistory is tens of thousands of years deep. Paleontology displays a beautiful record of human evolution.

I try to bear in mind the words of Saint Augustine, one of our greatest Catholic thinkers:

“If they [pagans] find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learned from experience and the light of reason? (Augustine, De Genesi, 1.19)

Your obstinate rejection of the findings of modern science bring discredit to our religion, and may turn away some who would otherwise be attracted to the teachings and practice of Catholic Christianity.

Prayerfully yours,
Petrus
 
Evolution must harmonize at these points:

Adam and Eve had preternatural gifts
Bodily Immortaility
Eve cam from Adam

God could have created Adam and Eve supernaturally and inserted them in the timeline whervever He wished reagrdless of what may or may not have been happening evolution wise in the universe.
 
Ed, you are admirably devoted to our Catholic faith. But I strongly recommend that you take some courses in archaeology, biology, and physics. The records of civilization antedate the biblical “Adam and Eve” – at least in the Young Earth 6,000 year reckoning – by thousands of years. And human prehistory is tens of thousands of years deep. Paleontology displays a beautiful record of human evolution.

I try to bear in mind the words of Saint Augustine, one of our greatest Catholic thinkers:

“If they [pagans] find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learned from experience and the light of reason? (Augustine, De Genesi, 1.19)

Your obstinate rejection of the findings of modern science bring discredit to our religion, and may turn away some who would otherwise be attracted to the teachings and practice of Catholic Christianity.

Prayerfully yours,
Petrus
Good News: Jesus Christ was born on December 25, 1 BC.
Bad News: Ussher’s Date for Adam at 4004 BC is Wrong
 
Ed, you are admirably devoted to our Catholic faith. But I strongly recommend that you take some courses in archaeology, biology, and physics. The records of civilization antedate the biblical “Adam and Eve” – at least in the Young Earth 6,000 year reckoning – by thousands of years. And human prehistory is tens of thousands of years deep. Paleontology displays a beautiful record of human evolution.

I try to bear in mind the words of Saint Augustine, one of our greatest Catholic thinkers:

“If they [pagans] find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learned from experience and the light of reason? (Augustine, De Genesi, 1.19)

Your obstinate rejection of the findings of modern science bring discredit to our religion, and may turn away some who would otherwise be attracted to the teachings and practice of Catholic Christianity.

Prayerfully yours,
Petrus
Ed, both you and I have to take some sceince courses. I was trashed on another thread by this guy.

Petrus, you could bone up on some theology.
 
Your obstinate rejection of the findings of modern science bring discredit to our religion, and may turn away some who would otherwise be attracted to the teachings and practice of Catholic Christianity.

Prayerfully yours,
Petrus
State these findings as fact.
 
Ed, both you and I have to take some sceince courses. I was trashed on another thread by this guy.

Petrus, you could bone up on some theology.
Science courses? Why? I follow the teachings of the Church. Why did Jesus Christ come to earth? Did His bodily ressurection actually occur?

Let me make this plain. The teachings of the Church come first. Science is then viewed in the light of those teachings. Most people here only want to convert Christians to Scientific Naturalism, if not all at once, then through introducing error. If you or any Christian loses sight of the fact of why Jesus Christ physically existed and why He died, then constant learning will never bring you to the truth. Don’t cloud the issue any further.

God bless,
Ed
 
State these findings as fact.
Fact, if anecdotal and from my own experience: some scientists with whom I interact at the AAAS and elsewhere express bewilderment that I am a devout Catholic and have a Ph.D. in theology, and yet also work in science. They explain to me what they understand Catholics to believe in – a young earth, a literal Adam and Eve, a literal global flood, the rejection of evolution – and then they declare (the contemptuous ones) that Catholics must leave their brains on the doormat before entering Church.

I explain that most Catholics do not have such a benighted and ignorant view of the world, and that I am quite at peace both with what science tells me about how the world works, and with Catholic theological teaching about God, eternity, and the ultimate purpose in life. Some of these scientists leave a bit more enlightened. Of course, you do have some hostile people like Richard Dawkins, who bear such hatred against religion in general that no genuine dialogue is possible.
 
Fact, if anecdotal and from my own experience: some scientists with whom I interact at the AAAS and elsewhere express bewilderment that I am a devout Catholic and have a Ph.D. in theology, and yet also work in science. They explain to me what they understand Catholics to believe in – a young earth, a literal Adam and Eve, a literal global flood, the rejection of evolution – and then they declare (the contemptuous ones) that Catholics must leave their brains on the doormat before entering Church.

I explain that most Catholics do not have such a benighted and ignorant view of the world, and that I am quite at peace both with what science tells me about how the world works, and with Catholic theological teaching about God, eternity, and the ultimate purpose in life. Some of these scientists leave a bit more enlightened. Of course, you do have some hostile people like Richard Dawkins, who bear such hatred against religion in general that no genuine dialogue is possible.
They are then misinformed. Kindly remind them Catholicism has been a promoter and friend of science.

Now as far as Adam and Eve go - you have a PHD in theology? Just what does the Catechism say and do you believe it?

Catholics only reject science that leaves God out.
 
A myth is a lie. Therefore, you just said that the Bible is a lie. Therefore, the entire Christian religion is founded upon a lie. Niiiiiiice…
You don’t understand the nature and function of myth. Every tradition has cosmogonic myths, ranging from the Hindu “cosmic egg” to the Hebrew “hexaemeral creation” with its talking serpent to the Native American “earth diver” story. Why should we privilege one primitive people’s cosmogonic myth over those of the approximately 100,000 other world religious traditions?

Your logic escapes me: moving from “a myth is a lie” [which it is not] to saying that “the entire Christian religion is founded upon a lie.”

I recommend you read Bessie and Brennan’s “Elements of Deductive Inference: An Introduction to Symbolic Logic,”
ISBN 0534551211

Prayerfully yours,
Petrus
 
Why should we privilege one primitive people’s cosmogonic myth over those of the approximately 100,000 other world religious traditions?
That’s the point. The OT is now no better than the other 100,000.

We should all be Hindus.
 
That’s the point. The OT is now no better than the other 100,000.

We should all be Hindus.
Of course not – there are profound reasons for Catholics not to convert to Hinduism. Recognizing that part of Genesis is in the same literary genre as cosmogonies of other religions is simply part of a mature theology.
 
Scott, we may be at an impasse here, as you and I – though both Catholics – appear to come from two quite different presuppositional frameworks. As I presume you know, the Hebrew scriptures are a complex and composite historical document, with pericopes of differing forms transmitted orally at first, and then written down by different scribal hands, assembled over many centuries by different redactors into collections that grew and changed over time. Contrary to what some literalists claim, Moses did not write the Pentateuch – which includes the account of his own death in Deuteronomy 34!

To be sure, the Hebrew scriptures include material that is historical in character, but it also includes material that is mythical in nature, and material that is legendary (embroidered stories based upon a really existing ur-figure). It does not take much exegetical sophistication to recognize that Genesis 1-11 is mythical in character, like the great myths of the Egyptians and Indians and Chinese, of the Mayans and Aztecs and other indigenous Americans, of the tribes of Africa and the Amazon, of the Pacific islanders and the Arctic peoples. To privilege one cosmogonic myth from one tribe in one part of the world – and to mistake it as “history” – is not only completely to misunderstand the nature of myth, but to disrespect its universal character and the essential role it plays in all cultural development.

It is important to understand the difference between myth, legend, history, apodictic law, cultic regulations, poetry, sermons, proverbs, parables, sayings, miracle accounts, prophecy, and other genres of writing included in the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures. It is also important to understand the difference between these genres and “Science” as we know it, which makes no appearance in the Bible, at last nothing parallel to the contemporary Greek natural philosophies that were attempting to understand through reason how the world works.

Prayerfully yours,
Petrus
 
Scott, we may be at an impasse here, as you and I – though both Catholics – appear to come from two quite different presuppositional frameworks. As I presume you know, the Hebrew scriptures are a complex and composite historical document, with pericopes of differing forms transmitted orally at first, and then written down by different scribal hands, assembled over many centuries by different redactors into collections that grew and changed over time. Contrary to what some literalists claim, Moses did not write the Pentateuch – which includes the account of his own death in Deuteronomy 34!

To be sure, the Hebrew scriptures include material that is historical in character, but it also includes material that is mythical in nature, and material that is legendary (embroidered stories based upon a really existing ur-figure). It does not take much exegetical sophistication to recognize that Genesis 1-11 is mythical in character, like the great myths of the Egyptians and Indians and Chinese, of the Mayans and Aztecs and other indigenous Americans, of the tribes of Africa and the Amazon, of the Pacific islanders and the Arctic peoples. To privilege one cosmogonic myth from one tribe in one part of the world – and to mistake it as “history” – is not only completely to misunderstand the nature of myth, but to disrespect its universal character and the essential role it plays in all cultural development.

It is important to understand the difference between myth, legend, history, apodictic law, cultic regulations, poetry, sermons, proverbs, parables, sayings, miracle accounts, prophecy, and other genres of writing included in the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures. It is also important to understand the difference between these genres and “Science” as we know it, which makes no appearance in the Bible, at last nothing parallel to the contemporary Greek natural philosophies that were attempting to understand through reason how the world works.

Prayerfully yours,
Petrus
Will you answer my previous question?

Now as far as Adam and Eve go - you have a PHD in theology? Just what does the Catechism say and do you believe it?
 
Will you answer my previous question?

Now as far as Adam and Eve go - you have a PHD in theology? Just what does the Catechism say and do you believe it?
To which passage are you referring? Please direct me to it.
Petrus
 
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