Reconciling Evolution with Adam and Eve

[drpmjhess]

I think the ineviteable conclusion of a transmigrating divine nature is a denial of the hypostatic union. The Second Person of the Trinity became Jesus.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Mr. of Geer (or may I call you “Gottle”?), I believe that every created being will be “peccatoris” for the reason that life evolving on any planet will be subject to the constrainys of the environment. In a pre-rational context, lion predation on deer is not a moral issue. When primate brains grew larger this allowed a more complex mental life, and then when hominids appeared (who left traces of a spiritual life 40,000 years ago), predation became a moral issue. When one has the neural endowment and therefore the cognitive faculty to be able to choose differently, competition for resources becomes a moral issue. We can choose whether to kill animals for food as painlessly as possible; we can choose whether to share food with sick members of the tribe or with neighboring tribes in times of extremity.

Unless intelligent and morally responsive life evolves on other planets under paradisial conditions – sufficient food, no disease or death – these beings will experience finitude and the temptation to do evil. So, I do not believe it is possible to have an organic rational species that is sinless.

Petrus

Finitude, yes - but temptation ? If they are truly alien (to us, that is) I’m not sure about that; because it’s not clear (well, not to me) that we can extrapolate from our experience to theirs.​

Which is a further reason AFAICS to start with revelation in Christ, rather than with us.

Even if there are other fallen races than ours, it still isn’t clear that the action of Christ among us is not valid for the whole cosmos. If the whole of God’s creative act applies to all creation, maybe the same is true of Christ’s equal act of re-creation.

But all this is highly speculative

Have you read C. S. Lewis’s essay “Religion and Rocketry” ? There is more sense there than in anything else I’ve read on the issue

Michael

 

[Benadam]

Benadam;2860959:

Benadam, the hypostatic union transcends reason. I God can unite with man, this is miraculous. If God can perform miracles, God can simultaneously (or sequentially) become incarnate as Homo sapiens and as other rational species on other planets. Each rational species knows God in their own form.

Since interstellar travel is at present impossible, there may be races now and in the distant past that are being extinguished or have already gone extinct without ever having the benefit of human evangelization about Jesus the human Christ. I am not so quick to deprive them of the experience of divine incarnation.
Prayerfully yours,
Petrus

Petrus, when looked at objectively alien life has not been introduced into the discussion here. every scenario ,circumstance and condition ascribed to alien moral life has been a projection of human life and the conditions, scenario’s and circumstances experienced already here on earth. There have been entire peoples who have been extinguished without benefit of being evangelized.

 

[Benadam]

Finitude, yes - but temptation ? If they are truly alien (to us, that is) I’m not sure about that; because it’s not clear (well, not to me) that we can extrapolate from our experience to theirs.

I’m with ya there. Alien-ness by it’s very definition must remain out of reach and mysterious unless it is revealed. Somehow I don’t believe living matter has much to surprise us with in light of divine revelation.

 

[drpmjhess]

drpmjhess;2864551:

Petrus, when looked at objectively alien life has not been introduced into the discussion here. every scenario ,circumstance and condition ascribed to alien moral life has been a projection of human life and the conditions, scenario’s and circumstances experienced already here on earth. There have been entire peoples who have been extinguished without benefit of being evangelized.

Yes – all we can do with respect to imagining alien moral life is to extrapolate from our own experience. And as to people extinguished without benefit of evangelization, they are in God’s hands.

Petrus

 

[drpmjhess]

]Have you read C. S. Lewis’s essay “Religion and Rocketry” ? There is more sense there than in anything else I’ve read on the issue

Michael, thanks for the refernce – I’;; check out the book.

Exobiology is a growing field, and from what I’ve read, while we cannot assume that RNA or DNA like ours would necessarily evolve, they do seem to provide an efficient vehicle for self-replicating molecules to form.

As to my assumption about resource conditions on other planets, I think it is reasonable to assume that any such planet is finite. Organic life as we know it might, I suppose, proceed without the population growth that occurs to support natural selection, but anywhere that natural selection operates there would seem to be the possibility that competition comes about for scarce resources. And with competition comes the possibility of sin. And with sin, the necessity of redemption.

Petrus

 

[drpmjhess]

I’m with ya there. Alien-ness by it’s very definition must remain out of reach and mysterious unless it is revealed. Somehow I don’t believe living matter has much to surprise us with in light of divine revelation.

No, not by its definition. If life exists elsewhere in the universe it would be not be by revelation that we would learn of it, but by exploration.

 

[Benadam]

No, not by its definition. If life exists elsewhere in the universe it would be not be by revelation that we would learn of it, but by exploration.

Not if you think of those planets and the life that may be on them as distant islands of earth. What could possibly develope on them that would be trully alien? What I notice about Sci-Fi is that when it attempts to portray the kind of alien life covered in this conversation ( and I love Isaac Asimov’s attempts) they invariably portray humanity shaped a bit differently. Some don’t even try to hide that failing. They pretty much portray aliens as humanoids with slight variations not even trying to create a true alien. You even said yourself that extraterrestrials would develope in a competitive condition with other life on their planet because of finite resources. What’s unearthly about that? And that’s my point. In this regard I appeal to the author of Ecclesiasticus (sp) who taught there is nothing new under the sun.

 

[Benadam]

Just an afterthought. I thought the Story 'Enemy Mine" was a good portrayal of extraterrestrial’s who had developed a moral sense attached to a divine source. I would like to see a sequal that has the 'Irkman" they come to love reveal the Human Christ to them.

 

[Benadam]

And with competition comes the possibility of sin. And with sin, the necessity of redemption.

Petrus

Petrus, I must thank you. You bring up well thought out points. I still disagree but you have provided rich food for thought. In reference to competition and sin. I am reminded that Paradise is described as a place that isn’t competetive. The redeemed world a place where the Lion lays down with the Lamb, a child sticks it’s hand in a snakes hole without fear of being bitten.

The state of being Adam and Eve enjoyed doesn’t seem to fit the state or paradigm that would develope from a competitive history.

 

[drpmjhess]

Benadam:
Petrus, I must thank you. You bring up well thought out points. I still disagree but you have provided rich food for thought. The state of being Adam and Eve enjoyed doesn’t seem to fit the state or paradigm that would develope from a competitive history.

Thanks, Benadam – this is a good place to leave this issue and agree to disagree, as it will probably always remain speculative. Garrett Hardin has noted that “traveling at the present rate of space speeds ―about twenty‑five thousand mph― it would take 114,000 years to get to Alpha Centauri. Even assuming we could boost the speed to twenty-two million mph ―which may or may not be theoretically possible― it would take 125 years for the trip, i.e., four to five generations.”

I personally believe that life has evolved elsewhere in the universe, but that it is rare. I will leave it to God how the matter of alien Adams and Eves live and die, and whether they have progeny, and whether those progeny are perfect or sinful and in need of redemption.

Have a blessed Sunday,
Petrus

 

[Benadam]

Thanks, Benadam – this is a good place to leave this issue and agree to disagree, as it will probably always remain speculative.

I will leave it to God how the matter of alien Adams and Eves live and die, and whether they have progeny, and whether those progeny are perfect or sinful and in need of redemption.

Have a blessed Sunday,
Petrus

Thank you for the discussion Petrus. Also with you.

 

[drpmjhess]

Just an afterthought. I thought the Story 'Enemy Mine" was a good portrayal of extraterrestrial’s who had developed a moral sense attached to a divine source. I would like to see a sequal that has the 'Irkman" they come to love reveal the Human Christ to them.

Thanks for reminding me – yes, “Enemy Mine” is a good film I want to show my boys. Far more redeeming social value than “Alien” or “Species,” I think.

Petrus

 

[Monty_Arch]

You don’t understand the nature and function of myth. Every tradition has cosmogonic myths, ranging from the Hindu “cosmic egg” to the Hebrew “hexaemeral creation” with its talking serpent to the Native American “earth diver” story. Why should we privilege one primitive people’s cosmogonic myth over those of the approximately 100,000 other world religious traditions?
…
Prayerfully yours,
Petrus

And that’s exactly why we cannot have creation science taught in public schools.

 

[Monty_Arch]

Meanwhile, with a hundred billion galaxies each containing on average hundred billion stars, the chances of life evolving on numerous other planets throughout the cosmos seem very large to me. I can image God the Creator willing life into existence all over the universe. Here we have not only creatio ex nihilo, but creatio continua. The eschatological consummation of all this life, rising to meet the divine love that engendered it, is inconceivable!

Petrus

So will the 2nd Person of the Trinity have to repeat over and over of being the Savior, if alien Adams and alien Eves eat from the forbidden alien fruit?

 

[drpmjhess]

And that’s exactly why we cannot have creation science taught in public schools.

Monty Arch, that’s precisely why we do need cosmogonic myths taught in school. The great religion scholar Huston Smith has declared that our colleges are turning out “skilled barbarians” – people who can program a computer or design a video game, but who have no acquaintance with the rich heritage of mythology from around the world, and no knowledge of the worlds’ diverse spiritual traditions.

Petrus sum

 

[drpmjhess]

So will the 2nd Person of the Trinity have to repeat over and over of being the Savior, if alien Adams and alien Eves eat from the forbidden alien fruit?

That’s exactly what one seventeenth-century objector to extraterrestrial life complained to Bishop John Wilkins, who had speculated on the inhabitants of other planets. But I have faith in God: if God is clever enough to manage incarnation on one planet, he should certainly be able to pull it off on multiple planets!

Petrus sum

 

[Monty_Arch]

…Of course, there are numerous other passages of scripture where a woodenly literal interpretation leads to contradiction. The beauty and value of the Bible endures, and is not impugned by acknowledging – as the medieval church did – that ther are at least four levels of scriptural meaning – and that the literal is not always the path to take.

I got this from the Bible Christian Society website:

"The ‘literal’ meaning of a passage of Scripture is the meaning that the author of that passage of Scripture intended to convey. The ‘literalist’ interpretation of a passage of Scripture is: ‘that’s what it says, that’s what it means.’

Let me give you an example to illustrate the difference. If you were to read a passage in a book that said it was ‘raining cats and dogs outside’, how would you interpret that? As Americans, in the 21st Century, you would know that the author was intending to convey the idea that it was raining pretty doggone hard outside. That would be the ‘literal’ interpretation…the interpretation the author intended to convey. On the other hand, what if you made a ‘iteralist’ interpretation of the phrase, ‘it’s raining cats and dogs’?

The ‘literalist’ interpretation would be that, were you to walk outside, you would actually see cats and dogs falling from the sky like rain. No taking into account the popularly accepted meaning of this phrase. No taking into account the author’s intentions. The words say it was raining cats and dogs, so, by golly, it was raining cats and dogs! That is the literalist, or fundamentalist, way of interpretation…

Literal, or Catholic, interpretation vs. literalist, or fundamentalist, interpretation."

 

[Sophie]

You should know the correct rendering is serpent.

Naturally a snake does not have this ability. Supernaturally?

Now serpents on the other hand can naturally utter sounds. Supernaturally?

And what serpent eats dirt? “…and dirt shall you eat all the days of your life.” - Gen. 3:14. Which creation story are we talking about here? The first or second? Both contradict eachother. In the first, God created animals, then Adam. In the second God created Adam, then animals in the hopes of finding a suitable partner for Adam??? - “The man gave names to all the cattle, all the birds of the air and all the wild animals: but none proved to be the suitable partner for the man.” - Gen. 2:20

 

[fierysword1920]

So will the 2nd Person of the Trinity have to repeat over and over of being the Savior, if alien Adams and alien Eves eat from the forbidden alien fruit?

I suppose there could be other life out there, but I don’t think it matters at all in relation to this planet. If there is intelligent life out there they would be so far away we could never meet them anyhow. We would have to be able to travel at speeds beyond the speed of light and that technology seems so far away that it is reasonable to assume we will never attain the ability before the second coming of Christ anyways. I also tend to believe that God the Father does not intend for us to be galavanting about in the deep reaches of space. I agree there is the possibility of other life out there that is similiar to ourselves, but if i’m betting on it I would say that there is not.