Reconciling With Organized Religion

[Glaxist]

I was baptized into the Roman Catholic Church as a baby. I attended a Catholic elementary school, the a public high school. My mother dutifully packed us kids off to church every Sunday morning, and I even participated in masses as an altar boy and in the choir.

Then I left home and moved to the city to attend university. My weekly church attendance ended. I married a non-Catholic, and became very defensive against Catholics who tut-tutted me about not really being married and being out of grace. I began a decades long period of considering why anyone needed a church or a religion at all to have a relationship with God. You see, I do believe in God. I believe in the Holy Trinity and that Christ died on the cross in atonement for my sins and that through His grace believers can attain their place in heaven.

What I have a terrible time reconciling with what Jesus said about the new covenant with man and what he actually instructed us to do, are the “rules” that were created long after he died that don’t seem to make any sense against what He was recorded as saying.

Take for example the church’s stance on marriage. Why must a person be married in a Catholic church before the church will recognize the marriage? Where did Jesus say that? Why must a Catholic only marry a Catholic? Where did Jesus say that? He didn’t, that’s where. They are rules made up by men like me: fallible, with biases, with agendas, with limitations.

So many of the traditions of the Catholic church, post-date Christ. At some point, often centuries after the crucifiction, a group of unmarried, politically motivated and powerful men sat down and decided this rule or that would now be required of everyone in the church. If anyone disagreed with those fellow mortals, they could excommunicated and shunned. Gradually, the beautifully simple message that Christ gave us, and his admonition not to become law-bound like the pharisees was bastardized into a system so convoluted and complex that the Vatican requires a bevy of lawyers to make any sense out of the incomprehensibly complex laws the church is now bound up in.

I have struggled hard not to be cynical. I have never verbally abused the church, or ridiculed it to another person, but I have had this internal war going on for most of my life. I just turned 50, and no big revelations of wisdom have come with age, where suddenly all the pieces dropped into place and I understood why the church headed down the road it did. I’m still not able to reconcile my understanding of God’s teachings with the host of laws and rules that have seemingly been arbitrarily added to them.

If anyone has waded through this fog and swamp before me, I would love ot hear what you found that helped you. “Trust me,” or, “Have faith,” really haven’t been helpful bits of information for me in the past.

 

[PennyinCanada]

Do you remember how you studied to get your driver’s license? Learned all the rules of the road, passed your test, got a beginner’s license? You needed a driver to sit with you in the beginning. What did a driver’s license mean to you? Freedom at last?

I came from a family that did not attend church and a parent that was alcoholic and had other addictions. I saw the slavery to sin that brought and how it impacted our lives. I came into the Church in my 20’s, basically banging on the door to let me in. I saw the rules of the Church as a way to navigate a mine field that our lives are, because I lived in a house with someone trapped in sin, attached to sin, without consideration to family. The Church to me was like getting a driver’s license. It was freedom. Bitterness, resentment, unforgiveness could be brought to the confessional and dealt with. Burdens that weren’t mine could be put down, no longer carried. That’s a freedom! To walk in grace, to ask the Creator of the universe for blessings and to bless the world. What a joy.

The Church gives us rules to keep us safe. We share this planet with a lot of other people, all on a journey. What would happen when a driver says that these stop signs are really slowing me down, what a headache! These speed limits really cramp my style. I can drink as much as I want, I’m an excellent driver. It’s easy to see that we will hurt ourselves and hurt others in our path. With the Church rules, it’s not an immediate car wreck with bodies bleeding, it’s a more subtle thing that takes decades to see sometimes. Maybe when we die, God will show us how our decisions impacted people for good, or for bad. Too bad we can’t see that now huh?

When we are plugged in to God, and frequent the sacraments, we can draw down such grace upon the world. This is our calling as children of God. May that become your joy, some day, hopefully soon. We’ve missed you and your talents, your abilities, your perseverance! God bless and be your strength today.

 

[phil19034]

I will respond tomorrow

In the meantime

 

[WilT]

If you read Scriptures as a Catholic it would be easy for you to believe that the Catholic Church is True church that Jesus Christ most loves and nourishes. You may have just fallen and believed in poor Scriptural studies and approaches.

"Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 "I also say to you **that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; **and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”

 

[sudy]

I don’t pretend to know everything so please bear with me. Marriage is a sacrament (a visible sign of an invisible reality) and has a very biblical foundation. It is an image of the inner life of the Trinity.

Marriage was not just about two people who are in love… despite the fact that this is why we tend to get married these days, marriage is about a family union… the strengths of one support the weaknesses of the other, and for the procreation of children… the fruit of love. These children are meant to be nurtured in the faith of Jesus Christ, Our Lord… the Church which Jesus founded.

It isn’t that you’re not allowed to marry outside of the Catholic Church… but you’re not meant to do it without a dispensation… and with the understanding that your children will be educated with the true faith in God.

Some of these traditions were written and explained for clarification and weren’t necessary to be written up earlier as there were simply those who did believe (Christians), and those who did not. We were all part of one Church.

 

[theyoungmonk]

The Church was founded by Christ and he gave power to the apostles and particularly to St. Peter to act in his name and to teach. This means that the apostles and their successors, the pope and the other bishops, make decisions and interpretations to guide the Church, they give advice as the father of the family. Some things they say are authoritative teaching but other things are merely discipline to prevent problems and abuses. an example of this would be the rule about Marriage in the Church and marriage to Catholics.

These two rules were made to prevent problems that were occurring. Having a marriage in church allowed a record to be made and allowed an eye to be kept so that people were not committing bigamy or claiming they were single when they were not. There was a big problem with “secret marriages” so it made sense to keep track of who was marrying who.

We know that not all non-Catholics would be willing to allow the raising of a child in the faith or they could be living an immoral life and the Church would not know, by having the rule about Catholic marriage it prevents the unknown being introduced and harming the family.

These rules though are not ironfast, they are designed to allow some investigation so if you want to get married to a non-Catholic outside of a Church ceremony you can, you just ask for a dispensation, and the Church can get a look see that you are married and that there is no harm. It is a pure matter of discipline that can be changed , and is there for the good of the Church. As the Church has a certain power over the Sacraments it makes sense for Her to use that to protect her members and to maintain good order.

I hope I was not too confusing and that I shed some light.

 

[Used2beSherryG]

I was baptized into the Roman Catholic Church as a baby. I attended a Catholic elementary school, the a public high school. My mother dutifully packed us kids off to church every Sunday morning, and I even participated in masses as an altar boy and in the choir.

Then I left home and moved to the city to attend university. My weekly church attendance ended. I married a non-Catholic, and became very defensive against Catholics who tut-tutted me about not really being married and being out of grace. I began a decades long period of considering why anyone needed a church or a religion at all to have a relationship with God. You see, I do believe in God. I believe in the Holy Trinity and that Christ died on the cross in atonement for my sins and that through His grace believers can attain their place in heaven.

What I have a terrible time reconciling with what Jesus said about the new covenant with man and what he actually instructed us to do, are the “rules” that were created long after he died that don’t seem to make any sense against what He was recorded as saying.

Take for example the church’s stance on marriage. Why must a person be married in a Catholic church before the church will recognize the marriage? Where did Jesus say that? Why must a Catholic only marry a Catholic? Where did Jesus say that? He didn’t, that’s where. They are rules made up by men like me: fallible, with biases, with agendas, with limitations.

So many of the traditions of the Catholic church, post-date Christ. At some point, often centuries after the crucifiction, a group of unmarried, politically motivated and powerful men sat down and decided this rule or that would now be required of everyone in the church. If anyone disagreed with those fellow mortals, they could excommunicated and shunned. Gradually, the beautifully simple message that Christ gave us, and his admonition not to become law-bound like the pharisees was bastardized into a system so convoluted and complex that the Vatican requires a bevy of lawyers to make any sense out of the incomprehensibly complex laws the church is now bound up in.

I have struggled hard not to be cynical. I have never verbally abused the church, or ridiculed it to another person, but I have had this internal war going on for most of my life. I just turned 50, and no big revelations of wisdom have come with age, where suddenly all the pieces dropped into place and I understood why the church headed down the road it did. I’m still not able to reconcile my understanding of God’s teachings with the host of laws and rules that have seemingly been arbitrarily added to them.

If anyone has waded through this fog and swamp before me, I would love ot hear what you found that helped you. “Trust me,” or, “Have faith,” really haven’t been helpful bits of information for me in the past.

Simply put: Jesus Christ, the eternal WORD, became flesh and dwelt among us. He instituted His Church, created the hierarchy and the sacraments. He promised that He would not leave us as orphans. He did NOT write a book, so your attempts to equate the gifts that Christ gave us to what appears in a book compiled by His Church as a teaching tool are appealing to a manmade “rule” that evolved in the last five centuries only. Study history and you will most certainly find that the Catholic Church is the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church that Jesus put in place for our salvation. Ask the Lord for guidance. Be open to looking beyond your own sense of reason. Guided by the Holy Spirit, the Church has prevailed for 2,000 years and will continue to do so until Christ comes again. God bless you in your efforts. You can be sure the Holy Spirit is prompting you to continue on your quest for the truth.

 

[frizzgrig]

I was baptized into the Roman Catholic Church as a baby. I attended a Catholic elementary school, the a public high school. My mother dutifully packed us kids off to church every Sunday morning, and I even participated in masses as an altar boy and in the choir.

Then I left home and moved to the city to attend university. My weekly church attendance ended. I married a non-Catholic, and became very defensive against Catholics who tut-tutted me about not really being married and being out of grace. I began a decades long period of considering why anyone needed a church or a religion at all to have a relationship with God. You see, I do believe in God. I believe in the Holy Trinity and that Christ died on the cross in atonement for my sins and that through His grace believers can attain their place in heaven.

What I have a terrible time reconciling with what Jesus said about the new covenant with man and what he actually instructed us to do, are the “rules” that were created long after he died that don’t seem to make any sense against what He was recorded as saying.

Take for example the church’s stance on marriage. Why must a person be married in a Catholic church before the church will recognize the marriage? Where did Jesus say that? Why must a Catholic only marry a Catholic? Where did Jesus say that? He didn’t, that’s where. They are rules made up by men like me: fallible, with biases, with agendas, with limitations.

So many of the traditions of the Catholic church, post-date Christ. At some point, often centuries after the crucifiction, a group of unmarried, politically motivated and powerful men sat down and decided this rule or that would now be required of everyone in the church. If anyone disagreed with those fellow mortals, they could excommunicated and shunned. Gradually, the beautifully simple message that Christ gave us, and his admonition not to become law-bound like the pharisees was bastardized into a system so convoluted and complex that the Vatican requires a bevy of lawyers to make any sense out of the incomprehensibly complex laws the church is now bound up in.

From your comments about what you understand the Catholic Church’s stance on marriage to be, you have not been fully instructed in the teachings of the Church. As a quick example, the Church teaches if you are free to marry, you may also marry anyone of the opposite gender who is also free to marry. If you are a Catholic, you are bound to follow the form of marriage in the Church - for the Latin Rite, normally marriage before a priest or deacon, with 2 witnesses, in a sacred place (usually a church or oratory). If you are a Catholic marrying a non-Catholic, you need permission from your bishop - this is to ensure the non-Catholic party to the wedding understands your obligations as a Catholic and the Catholic understanding of marriage. If you are marrying a non-Catholic you can also ask for permission to have the ceremony in a place other than a Catholic Church, and even to have another minister other than the Catholic Priest or Deacon be the celebrant.

I would suggest you look into a local parish with a good RCIA program and a “welcome home” program for returning/lapsed Catholics. Even if you later decide you don’t want to continue practicing the Catholic faith, you owe it to yourself to find out the real teachings before you decide you don’t agree with them.

 

[HelenRose]

I was baptized into the Roman Catholic Church as a baby. I attended a Catholic elementary school, the a public high school. My mother dutifully packed us kids off to church every Sunday morning, and I even participated in masses as an altar boy and in the choir.

Then I left home and moved to the city to attend university. My weekly church attendance ended. I married a non-Catholic, and became very defensive against Catholics who tut-tutted me about not really being married and being out of grace. I began a decades long period of considering why anyone needed a church or a religion at all to have a relationship with God. You see, I do believe in God. I believe in the Holy Trinity and that Christ died on the cross in atonement for my sins and that through His grace believers can attain their place in heaven.

What I have a terrible time reconciling with what Jesus said about the new covenant with man and what he actually instructed us to do, are the “rules” that were created long after he died that don’t seem to make any sense against what He was recorded as saying.

Take for example the church’s stance on marriage. Why must a person be married in a Catholic church before the church will recognize the marriage? Where did Jesus say that? Why must a Catholic only marry a Catholic? Where did Jesus say that? He didn’t, that’s where. They are rules made up by men like me: fallible, with biases, with agendas, with limitations.

So many of the traditions of the Catholic church, post-date Christ. At some point, often centuries after the crucifiction, a group of unmarried, politically motivated and powerful men sat down and decided this rule or that would now be required of everyone in the church. If anyone disagreed with those fellow mortals, they could excommunicated and shunned. Gradually, the beautifully simple message that Christ gave us, and his admonition not to become law-bound like the pharisees was bastardized into a system so convoluted and complex that the Vatican requires a bevy of lawyers to make any sense out of the incomprehensibly complex laws the church is now bound up in.

I have struggled hard not to be cynical. I have never verbally abused the church, or ridiculed it to another person, but I have had this internal war going on for most of my life. I just turned 50, and no big revelations of wisdom have come with age, where suddenly all the pieces dropped into place and I understood why the church headed down the road it did. I’m still not able to reconcile my understanding of God’s teachings with the host of laws and rules that have seemingly been arbitrarily added to them.

If anyone has waded through this fog and swamp before me, I would love ot hear what you found that helped you. “Trust me,” or, “Have faith,” really haven’t been helpful bits of information for me in the past.

I agree with the people who have suggested that you must learn more about the teachings of the Catholic Church. Learn, not only the teachings, but the reasons behind the teachings. If you can not accept these teachings at least you will know what you do not believe.

The term “organized religion” is such a strange term for me. I can’t see how it is possible to have any kind of religion that is not organized. The moment a meeting place and time is established for any kind of religious meeting, prayer group or even a pleasant get-together, it is by definition organized. A group must organize a list of members with telephone numbers, a time to meet, place to assemble, there are ideas and beliefs that are held in common (even if the common belief is “We accept everyone’s ideas” ) and generally there is someone who will organize refreshments.

Your organized religion may hold beliefs that I can not accept but I don’t often criticize other religions.

My feeling about religion was taught to me by Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta.

"*I love my people very much, more than myself, and so naturally I wish to give them
the joy of possessing the treasure that is my religion,

but, it is not mine to give,
nor can I force it on anyone.

So also no man, no government
has the right to prevent or force me, or anyone,
if I choose to embrace the religion that gives me
peace joy and love."*
------ Mother Teresa

 

[xzereus]

(I’m going to respond to your post point-by-point. I’m answering the most important point, your last one, first)

I’m still not able to reconcile my understanding of God’s teachings with the host of laws and rules that have seemingly been arbitrarily added to them.

Perhaps you are leaning too much upon your own understanding of God’s teachings which, as you have yourself state, is fallible.
“Have confidence in the Lord with all thy heart, and lean not upon thy own prudence.” Proverbs 3:5

To trust our own interpretation of Scripture and God above the teachings of the Apostles, Saints, and Bishops can often be rooted in pride. Being a convert to the faith, I know the feeling. It becomes easy to think that you have it down and that the Catholic Church is nothing but the corrupt institution the secularists have invented. Yet if we look back to the early Church, it becomes clear that God set an authority over his faithful. Here are just a few quotes:

“Our Apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned, and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry” - Clement of Rome (Letter to the Corinthians 44:1 [A.D. 95])

“You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Reverence the deacons as you would the command of God. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” - Ignatius of Antioch (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8:1 [A.D. 110])

“It is necessary to obey those who are the presbyters in the Church, those who, as we have shown, have succession from the Apostles; those who have received, with the succession of the episcopate, the sure charism of truth according to the good pleasure of the Father. But the rest, who have no part in the primitive succession and assemble wheresoever they will, must be held in suspicion” - Irenaeus (Against Heresies 4:26:2 [A.D. 189])

We are called to obey: “LET every soul be subject to higher powers: for there is no power but from God: and those that are, are ordained of God.” (Romans 13:1). These traditions do not come from the simple minds of men, but from the direction of the Holy Spirit. Some men may act contrary to the Holy Spirit, but God will protect his Church. When bishops or priests profess heresies, there are always faithful bishops who eventually correct them and bring the faithful back to the direction of the Holy Spirit.

Pray to God that he would give you the supernatural virtues of faith, hope, and charity. Through his grace you might wade through this fog. I hope I do not come across as combative, and I would be more than willing to have further discussion with you either here or in a private message.

Why must a person be married in a Catholic church before the church will recognize the marriage? Where did Jesus say that?

Sacraments are instruments of God’s grace and are a sign of the sacred. The Church in her wisdom judges the correct application of those sacraments. The restriction to be married in the Church only exists for Catholics, because the Church has judged this the best way for Catholics to receive as many graces as possible. You can receive permission to be married in non-Catholic wedding, though, so this is easily dispensed if need be.

If somebody were to be married in a civil ceremony, or in a ceremony belonging to another religion, chances are the minister would have very different views of marriage when compared to the Catholic Church. This changes the meaning of the marriage, and it changes the mindsets of the spouses when entering into the covenant. With something as serious as marriage, isn’t it important to be sure you know what you’re getting into, and to have God at the center of it?

Aside from all this, Christ gave the apostles and their successors this power:
“Whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.” (Matthew 18:18). In the case of marriage, they are simply using this power to bind the faithful to be married in a Catholic rite or to obtain a dispensation to be married in a different way.

Why must a Catholic only marry a Catholic? Where did Jesus say that? He didn’t, that’s where.

We cannot find all of Christ’s teachings in scripture: “But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.” (John 21:25)

Saint Paul does discuss the issue: “Bear not the yoke with unbelievers. For what participation hath justice with injustice? Or what fellowship hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath the faithful with the unbeliever?” (2 Corinthians 14-15)

This passage by Saint Paul discourages the faithful from bearing the yoke with non-believers. This is discouraging walking through the troubles of life with unbelievers as your support, so this applies even more to marriage. Believers and unbelievers have entirely different views of the world, and these differences can be a real problem when the going gets tough.

(Post shortened to be under limit)

 

[xzereus]

(Double post because first was too long)

They are rules made up by men like me: fallible, with biases, with agendas, with limitations.

These rules are not “made up.” They are all grounded in good reason, and a little bit of research into any of these rules makes the reasons very clear. Some of these rules can be and have been changed, and any discipline is subject to change at any moment.

So many of the traditions of the Catholic church, post-date Christ. At some point, often centuries after the crucifiction, a group of unmarried, politically motivated and powerful men sat down and decided this rule or that would now be required of everyone in the church. If anyone disagreed with those fellow mortals, they could excommunicated and shunned. Gradually, the beautifully simple message that Christ gave us, and his admonition not to become law-bound like the pharisees

The Holy Trinity, which you claim to profess, is one such tradition. Though it had roots from the times of Christ, it was not officially declared until centuries later. Does this invalidate this teaching?

Your claims about the motivations of these men are unfair. Unless you happen to have known them personally, you cannot make judgement as to why they did what they did. I also am unsure why being unmarried somehow makes their authority any less valid. I would like to point out that Christ and Saint Paul were both unmarried men.

Would you think it fair if I said your post was just emotionally-motivated and that because of your marital status and age your judgments are somehow worth less? I doubt it.

Additionally, where did Christ say that we should not be bound by law? I find that strange since he is the author of Divine Law and since his Father hand-wrote the 10 commandments.

 

[Glaxist]

Many excellent comments. Thank you for showing me a new angle to look at this. Your time and thoughts are most appreciated.

 

[Pianofish]

I’m currently journeying back to the Catholic faith and even with many years of Catholic education, I’ve decided to start over and study the faith again. I don’t share the same internal struggles you do, but I was interested in understanding the “whys” of many of the Church’s teachings. I wanted to position myself to be able to better explain my beliefs and potentially bring others to the faith instead of being content that my faith is strong enough for my personal spirituality.

If you are interested in some reading that breaks down Catholic teachings and supports those teachings with Scripture, I recommend reading This is the Faith by Canon Francis Ripley. You can find it on Amazon used for a whopping $4 or new for $18; the Kindle edition is about $10. It’s well organized if you prefer to open up to whatever teaching is challenging you at the moment as opposed to reading it cover to cover. However, I recommend reading it from the start since the information is arranged in a logical order to maximize understanding. It might be useful to have a Bible nearby that you can crack open and confirm the frequent Scripture references for yourself. If you are in need of a good Bible for your studies (I’m embarrassed to say I didn’t have one before I embarked on my journey), this Douay-Rheims version on Amazon has been a great addition to my bookshelf.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I have struggled hard not to be cynical. I have never verbally abused the church, or ridiculed it to another person, but I have had this internal war going on for most of my life. I just turned 50, and no big revelations of wisdom have come with age, where suddenly all the pieces dropped into place and I understood why the church headed down the road it did. I’m still not able to reconcile my understanding of God’s teachings with the host of laws and rules that have seemingly been arbitrarily added to them.

I think many of us can identify with this - struggling with some aspect of the church teaching and all the stuff we are required to do (and not do).

Perhaps a good way to go about it is this: everything we know about Jesus has come from the church. Why believe in some things and not others? Where do you draw the line, how do you decide?

Also, if we are to take the words of Jesus seriously about the Holy Spirit being sent to lead the church, then we are faced with a possibility that the Holy Spirit has actually led the church in truth.

The rules may seem arbitrary if we don’t look at the big picture. Ultimately, the way we behave is tied to what we are and how God made us, and is tied to the goal of our earthly life - to attain salvation. Everything is rooted in our human nature and our relationship with God.

Hope this has helped a bit.

 

[bobballen_18]

Hi Glaxist,

I don’t want to tell you to “trust me” or just to “have faith” - what I DO want to ask you is, how can you greater love your neighbor? Can you do it all yourself, without the grace of God? I think it all comes down to love. Jesus became one of us, and died a horrible death to atone for our sins, and then rose from the dead and instituted the Catholic Church with Peter as the first pope. The Catholic Church, having human beings in it, appears to have had problems within it, but teachings on faith and morals have not changed over the years, whether or not they were practiced fully by the clergy. As I mentioned, it comes down to love - how can you come to more fully love Jesus, enter into a relationship with him, and therefore share that love with your neighbor? What about the sacraments? The Catholic Church invites us to receive Jesus himself - Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. There are many great Christian people out there, but think of what non-Catholics/non-practicing Catholics are missing out on and how much better they could love Jesus and others if they only were able to receive graces through the sacraments, especially the Eucharist and Reconciliation?

So others on here are posting about how Jesus founded the Church, which I mentioned, and they are going into depth about that. That is a very important topic in light of your question, but anyway the above paragraph is my two cents - think about what the Catholic Church has to offer that is good, especially the Eucharist. If you can reflect on that topic in a positive light, perhaps you can reconcile your thoughts with the Church - you may or may not be aware, but the Church has nearly 2000 years’ worth of thought to go on, so she has well-thought out and well-reasoned answers to many, if not most, of your questions. Whatever you do, always seek the truth, and never give up until you have truly found how you can best love God and your neighbor! I wish you luck on your journey!

BTW, I highly recommend watching EWTN on TV, or listening on radio, and calling in to ask questions if you want. Also, I don’t know how much you have ever spoken with a priest, but you could try asking around for a good holy priest who could likely help you out.