Reconciling "Wokeness" & The Church

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Mr_Kooper_513 said:
As a “woke” person one of the things that is a difficulty for me when considering the Catholic Church is it’s history concerning colonialism in the America’s (ex. Columbus, Junipero Serra, Missions to Indigenous Peoples) and it’s historic and current European normative culture down to the Lily White depictions in the majority of sacred art. If you have had similar thoughts how have you dealt with them?
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The Catholic and other Christian churches are the largest NGO’s helping those people you are worried about. Why don’t you join up and help.
 
I’m a person of color.

When considering the art, it’s important to remember that when we are discussing the ROMAN Catholic Church we should expect that the art, architecture, music, etc. will have a Latin aesthetic. There’s nothing racist about that. And, there is nothing wrong with seeking out different aesthetics as the links upthread demonstrate.

As for colonization, the church officially condemned slavery and forced conversions, etc. People went ahead anyway. Certainly the church could have done more, but the same can be said of most people during that era.

Bottomline: Truth is truth even if it comes in less than desirable packaging.
 
If you are truly awake as you claim, then you’ll learn to read history and understand the context of the people of that time, rather than using your 21st century mindset to judge them.

Don’t misunderstand me, white Europeans made mistakes when they arrived in the New World, but Native American tribes did as well.

Fact is, the Pilgrims of Plymouth Plantation lived in peace with the native tribes for over 50 years.

Keep in mind, that not all native tribes of North America were peaceful, Many ware outright savage, not to just white people, but to other enemy tribes and this took place long before Columbus showed up.

As far as Junipero Serra, you need to get updated on what he really did, verses what people today claimed he did. Most of what was said against him was false and based on anti-white bigotry.

Jim
 
I used to have similar thoughts but then I considered the possibility that I am missing the forest for the trees.

At the heart of Catholic doctrine is the love of God for us which we should place in front of us at all times.

Yeah, I know it’s sappy but it’s true. We were created to know God and to reflect what we’ve learned of God to others.
 
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mrsdizzyd said:
To be fair, people said that about Junipero Serra and yet…
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I don’t know when people said that about him, but his cause was going full steam ahead way back in the 1970s afaik. The nuns taught us about him, and I grew up a very long way from California.

There are many substantive differences between Serra and Columbus. Serra was a priest and a member of a major Order. That means he had the Order pushing his cause. In the case of lay people, even when you have one whose cause has far less weaknesses than Columbus, there is a big problem just getting anyone to push the cause. A couple people petitioning for your sainthood is not enough. You need a big push from an organization or something (and the Knights of Columbus are unlikely to step up, they are having enough issues just dealing with being saddled with the guy’s name and they are pushing the cause of their founder Fr. McGivney).

Furthermore, Serra’s cause was stronger than Columbus’ cause. Serra actually had a number of Native Americans supporting his cause. Plus he did a number of positive things, constantly performed penance (including self-flagellation) and founded an entire mission system. I’m not seeing where Columbus did anything comparably great for the Church, nor did he personally live a life of heroic virtue. The Vatican itself in the New York Times said Columbus’ cause has too many weaknesses.
 
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Mr_Kooper_513 said:
As a “woke” person one of the things that is a difficulty for me when considering the Catholic Church is it’s history concerning colonialism in the America’s (ex. Columbus, Junipero Serra, Missions to Indigenous Peoples) and it’s historic and current European normative culture down to the Lily White depictions in the majority of sacred art. If you have had similar thoughts how have you dealt with them?
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Similar and many, many more. Church history is rife with human failings, although not everything that’s purported to be done by the Church is true, and not everything that shes’ been condemned for was always necessarily wrong; there’re tons of anti-Catholic pop-mythology floating around . But there’s also plenty back there that was wrong-and there will continue to be for one simple reason: the Church’s own doctrine of Original Sin is true; man is fallen, man is weak and corrupted, man is spiritually separated form the source of his righteousness: God.

So God allows us to go our own individual ways while guaranteeing that we’ll still have the “right way”, His gospel, preserved intact, so that, whenever we obstinate folk are ready, we can turn back and find His ways as taught by His Church. The problem is not the Church’s teachings; the problem is man, leaders and laity alike, not heeding them, failing to love as we should to put it simply.
 
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True, I think most of the opposition to him came from people in California. I also think when Rome is looking at a canonization cause, they are more likely to be friendly to the position of the Franciscans than people in California, especially when there were other people in California supporting the canonization.

Edited to add, I know this comes from the source that we sometimes call “National Catholic Distorter”, but it’s a pretty good article.

 
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Certainly whether or not someone is a saint is well above my pay grade. All I’m saying is never say never. People with lots of public opposition have had causes opened and approved before.
 
Mother Teresa immediately comes to mind.

Queen Isabella who isn’t yet canonized also comes to mind.

Many people oppose Dorothy Day and Fulton Sheen.

Joan of Arc who many people think was insane.
 
Something I encountered very early on after my return to the Church were Nativity scenes from around the world. That still brings a tear to my eyes and I look them up from time to time (ain’t the internet great!).
 
Yes, it’s acacia, wattle. A gorgeous shrub (small tree) full of yellow flowers. Short lived, not good for hay fever, fast growing. Falls over in wind.

I will take some pics when it’s in bloom.
 
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I read Romans, Ephesians, and Colossians and realize that we are reconciled through Christ, not through social justice crusades.
 
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As a Catholic, I face a lot of difficulties with “wokeness”, primarily the unjustified anger expressed by those claiming to be “woke”, or otherwise expressing views that line up with being “woke”. There’s far too much name-calling and fallacious thinking for me to consider becoming “woke”.

Change my mind?
 
I don’t like the word “woke” because it is to grammar what fingernails are to a chalkboard. Also, I presume it comes from Black American slang, and while it’s indisputable that a tremendous number of standard American slang comes from different aspects of AA culture, this particular one seems too close to what could legitimately be claimed as “cultural appropriation.”

I can’t believe I’m about to type this, but: people who aren’t “people of color” can’t really be ‘woke’ to what people of color face. My daughter had a close friend who is from the Dominican Republic. He faces subtle and sometimes not-so-subtle discrimination regularly in the way people interact with him. It upsets him, he doesn’t fight back against it (because he can’t, really) and he expects it.
 
What I’m saying is, white people (like me) in America don’t really know what it’s like. I’ve had friends from all parts of the world, of all different skin colors. (Even green, because I’ve had friends who were U.S. Marines, and they’ were taught that there are no white Marines, there are no black Marines. All Marines are the same color: green)

My friends never talked about discrimination (around me) unless they were asked about it.

Discrimination is something we white people think about when it’s in the news. That’s when we’re woke. People with other skin colors live with it all their lives. A friend was adopted from a Chinese orphanage as an infant and has spent her whole life since then living in Central Pennsylvania. People still treat her like she’s an outsider, not American, not one of us. Sometimes they assume she doesn’t speak English!

I could go on, but you get the point.
 
Thom18 said:
…primarily the unjustified anger expressed by those claiming to be “woke”, or otherwise expressing views that line up with being “woke”.
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I don’t think anyone is in the position to tell someone else whether their personal feelings of anger are unjustified or not.
 
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