Reconstructed discussion whether belief in literal Adam & Eve is warranted

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I think it was “Granny” who asked poliltely that creation and young earth be kept out of the discussion. However, I don’t think that is fare to the church fathers and to Christ himself who founded the Catholic Church; this is because whether it is understandable or not by some of the participants on this thread the church fathers did agree that a literal Creation did occur. So how can you honestly say to yourself, “Keep it out of here?” Are they the original Catholics or not?
Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to clarify post 16. Please note that I did not use the word “creation.” In fact, I was very careful not to use the word creation because I see a unity of creation which will be part of an analytical approach to the truth of Adam and Eve’s existence. The post is a back and forth discussion on Adam and Eve which I limited to the evolutionary theory itself as part of my analytical approach. In fact, I was very careful to refer to “our discussion” as being in the post and never said anything to limit other people from discussing whatever.

Just because I, personally, consider creationism and young earth separate from the evolutionary theory, does not imply that these topics should not be discussed by those more qualified than myself. The Church Fathers were teaching Divine Revelation which is that God is the Creator of all the universe and that Adam & Eve were the parents of the human race. I welcome Divine Revelation. Because from my spot in the trenches, I do not see huge numbers of “original” Catholics younger than 50.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is sacred from the moment of conception.
 
.Note that the scientific meaning of polygenism is different from the Catholic meaning - in the scientific sense polygenism refers to the concept that modern humans arise from separate and non-interbreeding populations of pre-humans, and has been falsified).
Alec
evolutionpages.com
Pardon me. But I have been having a good time on the Tree of Life website link in one of your posts and need to ask two yes or no questions on the above.
The scientific sense of polygenism – is that the The Multiregional Hypothesis which stipulates that Homo sapiens evolved independently all over the world from their respective native populations? The Out of Africa Hypothesis seems to be gaining consensus. The website suggests – “Genetic evidence shows that variation among individual humans is very small.” Could this mean that there was one native population in Africa?

Blessings,
granny

All human beings all over the world are worthy of profound respect.
 
To hecd2:

Alec,

We are dancing around Lourdes and miracles a bit long, but you write: “As I have pointed out, when stringent criteria are applied, the miracles all but dry up. They filled the lives of mediaeval people whose understanding of natural processes was limited - where are they now? There is absolutely no evidence that any one of these anecdotal cases even if unexplained, is unexplainable by natural causes, nor that what is observed at Lourdes lies outside that which happens statistically across the general population in the usual run of things.” You say you are an “unbeliever because compelling evidence is not forthcoming.” But, you underestimate the competence of medical doctors who work at the Lourdes Medical Bureau in recent times. These are not mere anecdotal cases in the sense of personal reports, but caefully documented “before-and-after” medical records of dying persons, immense with tumors, liquids, pus, decayed cells – suddenly cured with all that diseased matter suddenly removed, replaced with healthy tissue. Immediate resorbtion would kill a person because of the burden on the heart and uremic poisoning. Conversely, dying persons: skeletal, or full of “holes,” fistula, deep wounds, gangrene, or missing bone – instantly restored, whole and entire. This entails immediate generation of tissue, a kind of “creation” exceeding all natural law and natural power, since God alone can create. The evidence is in the detailed records at the Lourdes Medical Bureau. Still, metaphysical and theological “filters” remain before Church approval.

The question of theological monogenism is not beyond the competence of Pius XII, as you assert, because he addresses the theological issue of polygenism’s compatibility with Original Sin, a matter entirely within his proper authority. Should the Church speak definitively on this matter, the certitude of Faith will surely find compatibility with sound natural science.

You claim that “the application of the methodology of science that has revealed deeply non-intuitive, uncaused and logically contradictory phenomena. When I say that the necessity of causality (one damned thing after another ) is undermined by findings of modern science, I mean what I say - we have observed uncaused phenomena, even if most macroscopic phenomena do indeed follow a causal structure, so the necessity of causality in all circumstances has gone. Aquinas is in even deeper hot water when it comes to motion and contingency.” Once again, you fail to grasp the force of my point about the metaphysical presuppositions of natural science. If phenomena can be “logically contradictory,” how can you be sure of any experimental observation – since it might equally be as false as true, as not real as real? Metaphysical causality does not mean “one thing after another.” That is Hume’s misunderstanding. Modern science takes causality as predictability, which can admit exceptions. But metaphysical causality means that what does not fully explain itself needs extrinsic explanation. Does any scientist allow that phenomena, say, a precipate of a certain color, or an unexpected explosion – requires no explanation? If so, all scientific enquiry ceases – and so does science itself. Natural science does not defend these principles of non-contradiction and needed causal explanation. And any experimental conclusion contradicting them would deny its own epistemic foundations. Either science is running on “pure faith” here, or it gets these presuppositions from elsewhere. That “elsewhere” is metaphysics. It is a common confusion to think that modern experimental science is the only science, since Aristotle’s original philosophical sciences began with empirical data and sought sure knowledge through causes, meaning sound reasoning. Modern science does not own the title of “science.” What it owns is the experimental method. But not all knowledge is had through experimentation, since no experiment can prove that experimentation is the only form of knowing.

You do concede,“The only axiom that science requires is that what we observe of the external world corresponds to reality, and that reality is not capricious.” The first “axiom” (taken on faith?) is epistemological realism, properly defended – guess where? – in epistemology, a philosophical science. The second “axiom,” that reality is not capricious, would mean that reality does not suddenly change. We don’t observe a purple precipitate and then say, “Well, maybe it is really yellow!” That is to say, this “axiom” presupposes the principle of non-contradiction, properly defended in metaphysics. (See Lagrange’s work cited previously.)

Natural science is wonderful and productive in its own domain, but, as Buffalo points out earlier, it is subordinate to metaphysics, and without metaphysics, would be reduced to mere acts of faith, not sound reason. The proper understanding of the roles of the various science is necessary in order to grasp why the reality of Adam and Eve and the special creation of man is not the proper domain of natural science alone, but rather belongs primarily to philosophy and theology.
 
Well, you are precisely wrong about this. Explanations to do with the origin of life, the origin of the human and other species and the nature of life are the territory of science.
I didn’t deny that science makes these phenomena its territory,I affirmed the fact that these phenomena are also theological territory. Origins,order,and life are the prerogotives of the Creator. Science and Catholic theology are at odds over the same territory – the natural world and how it is to be understood. Naturalistic explanations for origins,order,and life are not compatible with Catholic doctrine,because they don’t allow for God to be working in the world he created. Natural causes are considered to be the only causes at work in the natural world. That assumption affects the way all natural phenomena are explained,and the explanations become alternative doctrines on the natural world. Nature is viewed as wholly self-sufficient and self-acting.
Theological explanations might make testable natural claims, and wherever they do so, they are subject to correction by observation and experiment.
As you know,science can’t test the supernatural. The doctrines of Creation and divine providence can only be tested by reason and logic,with reference to common experience.
On the contrary, the nested hierarchy of species is amply demonstrated by overwhelming evidence from comparative physiology, comparative biochemistry and, above all, molecular biology, as well as comparative anatomy (quite apart from the fact that the Linnaean system is anything but “arbitrary”)
Comparative analysis doesn’t demonstrate the validity of the phylogenetic tree. You first have to buy into the idea that the species are really related by descent on account of their genetic similarities. Linnaeus’ system was arbitrary,because he lumped together different species according to their similar physical characteristics,rather than actual reproductive relatedness.
If you talk about “bones” you are limiting the discussion to the absurdly narrow taxon of the Class of Osteichthyes (bony fish and their descendants, including humans). Not only does that exclude the rest of the subphylum Vertebrata, but the rest of the Chordata phylum, all other phyla of animals (which are hugely more diverse and numerous than chordates), all plants, all fungi and all bacteria. The nested hierarchy of species, and their relationship through common ancestry, is a biological fact that is simply not in question. For more information on the tree of life, see here:
tolweb.org/tree/
I also mentioned similar physical characteristics.

The only way to test for relationship through common ancestry is to see if species in question can breed with each other. That would be direct empirical experimentation. But drawing conclusions about common ancestry based on similarities between species without being able to breed the species in question is speculation.
You are mistaken, because the biological species definition is that species are populations that do not successfully interbreed in the wild.
Not all species are totally incapable of breeding with each other. There are sub-species which are partially reproductively isolated,but not totally. Scientists will call a “species” any population that shows distinct characteristics from a larger population,even if they are still genetically capable of breeding together.
 
This is for you, Anthony, :flowers:
Well,thank you!
What I am doing is testing current evolutionary theory in the light of the Catholic belief of Eve & Adam.
The thing to always remember is that evolutionary theory is a naturalistic view of natural history,and so it does not allow for God to be working in the world. It is not enought to say that science has its approach to truth and religion has its approach. We know that it is true that God originates,orders and gives life,but science does not admit that. John Paul 2 said,in reference to the claims of science and faith,that “Truth cannot contradict truth”,but he also knew that the scientific approach to truth is naturalistic and materialistic and reductionist. Naturalism and materialism are untrue assumptions,and they lead to untrue scientific explanations wherever the power of God is a logically necessary cause. The problem isn’t with the experimental method itself,it is with methodological naturalism,which determines how things are explained. It leads to bad logic when it comes to explaining origins,order,and life. Nature is explained as if it were an infinite regression of mechanisms,with no ouside power to make the so-called mechanisms happen. Reductionism ad adsurdam,ad infinitum.
 

No amount of biology can be an argument or evidence or proof of two characters whose existence is based on ancient legends. One might as well ask “whether belief in” the real existence of Frodo the Hobbit “is warranted”, or use “The Lord of the Rings” as evidence for the co-existence of men & dinos: the logic of the two questions is identical. The only significant difference between the two fictions, is that one is far more recent & (for now) far more obviously a fiction; once a bit of time has passed, there will probably be expeditions to prove the truth & accuracy (& probably - who knows ? - the inerrancy) of “The Hobbit”; just as there are Ark-hunting expeditions today.​

 
I think it was “Granny” who asked poliltely that creation and young earth be kept out of the discussion. However, I don’t think that is fare to the church fathers and to Christ himself who founded the Catholic Church; this is because whether it is understandable or not by some of the participants on this thread the church fathers did agree that a literal Creation did occur. So how can you honestly say to yourself, “Keep it out of here?” Are they the original Catholics or not?
The irony of the fact that i have to point this out is…absolutely amazing.

See this thread —> forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=328192

For someone seems to have forgotten to identify “Which Church Fathers…?”

The Damascus School which took the Bible literally? or the Alexandrine School who believed Genesis was allegorical?

Heck, even the ancient Israelites were divided on this issue and the rabbinical tradition around and after Jesus of Nazareth’s time were debating it.
 
The thing to always remember is that evolutionary theory is a naturalistic view of natural history, and so it does not allow for God to be working in the world.
The thing to remember is that evolutionary theory is valid in many areas. It follows the scientific discipline. What I appreciated in your post was another way to look at the tree of life. In order to look at Adam and Eve scientifically, their lineage needs to be traced backwards. Vertical reproduction is so obvious that I missed it. Also your point that reproductive linkage cannot be traced out by comparing the similarities of genetic material opens the question --why are there similarities of genetic material?
Is the common ancestor the only cause?

Another exciting point in your post was the reference to Linnaeus’ classification system which is somewhere in the mess on my rug. In looking up that system, I discovered other systems, none of which matched what I learned ages ago. The question now raised is not which classification system is to be used but rather is it time to separate out some of the species from their original classification? Like booting Pluto out of the planetary category.

My observation so far is that there are various stages along the evolutionary theory trail. These need to be revisited with the question – Is there more than one viable way of dealing with this stage? I have been reading some scientific papers on various research areas. I usually head to the conclusions. It is very interesting to read how these are hedged.

Here’s one more question. Should we be tracing Adam and Eve’s lineage forward?

In conclusion. There are many ways to warrant belief in the literal Adam and Eve. An approach using the philosophical discipline is an excellent one. However, I have yet to read a flat out, straight forward philosophical presentation centered on Adam and Eve. Maybe I have missed it. Most everything I read is more a defense of the philosophical method or some other kind of defense or an attack on evolutionary theory or an attack on science.

At this moment in time, my personal approach is based on the idea that the truth of science does not contradict the truth of Divine Revelation. Therefore, I am looking for the truth in science first. Just because I am interested in evolutionary theory does not mean that I am excluding God.

Blessings,
granny

Humanity owes its existence to a loving Creator.
 
The irony of the fact that i have to point this out is…absolutely amazing.

See this thread —> forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=328192

For someone seems to have forgotten to identify “Which Church Fathers…?”

The Damascus School which took the Bible literally? or the Alexandrine School who believed Genesis was allegorical?

Heck, even the ancient Israelites were divided on this issue and the rabbinical tradition around and after Jesus of Nazareth’s time were debating it.
Personally, I prefer the School of Divine Revelation - 👍 - as explained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, second edition. ISBN 1-57455-109-4
 
I concur that there is an “argument from ignorance” here about the Lourdes miracles, but the ignorance is one of the actual details of the cures, for example, eyes that see while the optic nerves are still inoperable, wounds that instantly and completely close, over an inch of leg bone instantly appearing, people expected to die within hours springing to life, and so forth. Not the Devil, but God, is in the details here.
As you have said elsewhere, we have spent an inordinate amount of effort on miracles, which are peripheral to the question. As a reminder, they were brought up by you as validation of the Church’s truth claims, but as I have pointed out, not only are they poorly evidenced, but, if true, they also lead to intractable philosophical and theological problems for the Catholic notion of God. The belief that the “miracles” at Lourdes arise from divine intervention in the natural order, given the lack of evidence for the proposition that they are ultimately inexplicable in principle by natural means, reveals a rather surprising degree of credulity for a philosopher. For long periods of time, throughout the history of the early church, the Dark Ages and the mediaeval period, the Church justified its truth-claims and the holiness of its saints by numerous hagiographic tales of miraculous deeds, some of which have been crystallised into the very dogma of the Church. However, in the light of modern science and the healthy scepticism of the Enlightenment, those sorts of claims have all but dried, up leaving the one miracle per decade at Lourdes as its “melancholy, long, withdrawing roar”.
Philosophers may have to get used to miracles occurring in spite of “intractable philosophical problems.” Such “problems” exist largely from assumptions of God not existing, or His not doing things the way we would do them if we were He, or a created natural order that even the Creator cannot “rearrange.”
Unfortunately, the philosophical problems are problems for the Catholic conception of God - it is surprising that you dismiss them like this, not just because you are a professional philosopher, but because they directly intersect the claims of your own faith.
But our topic is Adam and Eve, and the only question before us here is whether God can directly create the human spiritual soul at a given point in prehistory.
I beg to differ. This is not the only question before us - even if we leave aside and take as given all of your claims about the existence of a spiritual realm, the spiritual identity of the human soul and the difference in kind of humanity (note that I concede these points merely for the sake of illustration), we are left with the scientific finding that living humans cannot have arisen from two sole ancestors. That alone is sufficient to deny the literal truth of the story of Adam and Eve.
Nonetheless, since the soul is the substantial form of the human body, and since the form actively determines the specificity of the body (puts it into its proper species), the creation of the first human being would simultaneously radically transform the body of any subhuman primate which might (hypothetically) be used as the vehicle for forming the first true man. This transformation would be at a submicroscipic level which might be totally indiscernible to scientific measurement or observation, but would still constitute the “special creation of man,” body and soul.
We are now moving wholly into the realms of empty speculation and fanciful fairy tale. If I understand you right, you would have us believe that the special creation of man includes a physical transformation which is “indiscernible to scientific measurement” - ie, a transformation in the physical realm that the science of the study of physical phenomena cannot discern - in other words, fairy dust.

This is grotesque - on the one hand, you try to demonstrate the existence of rare supernatural or divine violations of natural law by appeals to natural science; and on the other hand you claim that there can be physical transformations that are indiscernible by natural observation. That is, indeed, a strange epistemology.
Your comments to Anthony in general are appropriate to the biological species concept which usually is focused upon populations that do not successfully interbreed in the wild. But Ernst Mayr conceded the need to move past empirical terms, like “phenotypic, morphological, genetic, phylogenetic, or biological” in order to get to the “underlying philosophical concepts,” if we are to have a proper understanding of the “species problem.” (Mayr, The Species Problem [American Association for the Advancement of Science, 1957], p. 17) The natural philosophical species concept is a wholly distinct approach and is based on presence or absence of essentially distinct powers, such as reasoning and understanding which are specific to true man, but not to brute animals.
I am not sure what point you are trying to make here. Ernst Mayr was the first biologist to formulate the BSC, a species concept that he defended all his life against other species concepts. As far as I am aware, the main philosophical question which arises from the species problem, is whether a species is a real entity or a classification (a realist/nominalist question). Mayr concluded that it is a real entity by virtue of the fact that it consists of an actual population of organisms, ie it is an individual (see eg Ghiselin and Hull).

I have never heard of the natural philosophical species concept, so assume that it is an invention of yours. It appears to be an essentialist notion of species, but you must know that essentialist concepts of species have terminally failed and are universally rejected both by biologists and philosophers.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
Pardon me. But I have been having a good time on the Tree of Life website link in one of your posts and need to ask two yes or no questions on the above.
The scientific sense of polygenism – is that the The Multiregional Hypothesis which stipulates that Homo sapiens evolved independently all over the world from their respective native populations?
Yes - the multiregional hypothesis is a form of polygenism in the scientific sense.

More radical forms of polygenism in this sense are religiously or socially motivated and claimed that the human races are different species with different ancestry. (By the way such claims were used to justify slavery - Charles Darwin was appalled by slavery and was a staunch monogenist - in the scientific sense - all his life)
The Out of Africa Hypothesis seems to be gaining consensus. The website suggests – “Genetic evidence shows that variation among individual humans is very small.” Could this mean that there was one native population in Africa?
Yes, genomics indicates that modern humans all arose from an interbreeding population of a few thousand in Africa, although it appears that the migratory history was not simple, with more than one migratory episode out of Africa, and some migrations back. Note that earlier migrations of earlier Homo species out of Africa to Europe and Asia of Homo neanderthalensis and Homo erectus died out or were replaced by Homo sapiens.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
The question of theological monogenism is not beyond the competence of Pius XII, as you assert, because he addresses the theological issue of polygenism’s compatibility with Original Sin, a matter entirely within his proper authority.
That might be so, but he is not competent to address the issue of whether living humans are descended from two sole parents, or whether human ancestry arises from a much larger breeding population. The scientific findings definitively conclude the latter, and Pius XII is not competent to disagree.
You claim that “the application of the methodology of science that has revealed deeply non-intuitive, uncaused and logically contradictory phenomena. When I say that the necessity of causality (one damned thing after another ) is undermined by findings of modern science, I mean what I say - we have observed uncaused phenomena, even if most macroscopic phenomena do indeed follow a causal structure, so the necessity of causality in all circumstances has gone. Aquinas is in even deeper hot water when it comes to motion and contingency.” Once again, you fail to grasp the force of my point about the metaphysical presuppositions of natural science.
I haven’t failed to grasp your point. I say that your point is invalid, not only because the pursuit of knowledge by natural science does not require an axiomatic basis that treats causality, motion and contingency in the same way that Aquinas understands them (you make an error in claiming that it does), but because the findings of natural science show that such concepts are not necessarily universally true.
If phenomena can be “logically contradictory,” how can you be sure of any experimental observation – since it might equally be as false as true, as not real as real?
Because we can make repeatable observations that entail contradictory explanations - in other words we can conclude that the universe always acts in this contradictory way. Reality is contradictory, and consistently so. Examples of this are the wave particle duality on a small scale which is real but entails mutually contradictory attributes, quantum tunnelling, and entanglement, such as demonstarted by violations of Bell’s inequality. Consider also quantum superpositions where things can be and not be at the same time.
Metaphysical causality does not mean “one thing after another.” That is Hume’s misunderstanding. Modern science takes causality as predictability, which can admit exceptions. But metaphysical causality means that what does not fully explain itself needs extrinsic explanation. Does any scientist allow that phenomena, say, a precipate of a certain color, or an unexpected explosion – requires no explanation?
Of course. Quantum indeterminacy means that we have to accept certain events as brute facts without further extrinsic cause - take, for example, a radioactive isotope. We know that an atom of such a thing will decay at some point, but we cannot say when, because radioactive decay is formally uncaused. Similarly, on as vast a scale as we can see, the cosmos consists of stars, galaxies of stars, clusters of galaxies, and superclusters of clusters. The actual distribution of matter is a consequence of quantum fluctuations in the distribution of energy immediately after the Big bang - that the fluctuations are quantum effects can be shown by their gaussian, adiabatic and scale invariant distribution. Beyond the existence of quantum fluctuations in the scalar field during inflation there is no further explanation - the quantum fluctuations are themselves a brute fact and uncaused.
If so, all scientific enquiry ceases – and so does science itself. Natural science does not defend these principles of non-contradiction and needed causal explanation. And any experimental conclusion contradicting them would deny its own epistemic foundations.
We have seen that this is not so, because what science does is to cut off the branch of Aristotleian and Thomistic notions of causality, motion and contingency - but science is not sitting on that branch at all. Its epistemic foundation is no more, and need be no more, than the observation that our sensory (name removed by moderator)ut and our information processing results in conclusions which are in concordance with reality - such a conclusion is self evident, unless one is prepared to descend into solipsism. Formal science can start from folk science, and is validated by performing successfully. No metaphysics is required.
Modern science does not own the title of “science.” What it owns is the experimental method. But not all knowledge is had through experimentation, since no experiment can prove that experimentation is the only form of knowing.
There is more natural science than the “experimental method” as even a passing acquaintance with the philosophy of science will show. No experiment can prove anything (although it can disprove propositions) - science is not a formally axiomatic pursuit, like mathematics. The observation that our sensory (name removed by moderator)ut and information processing produce beliefs that correspond to reality, and that that reality is consistent in time and place, is the only required epistemic basis for doing science. Science’s foundations need not be the top down of metaphysics, but the bottom up of folk science.

If we take “science” as a method for acquiring knowledge, it is no accident that the word has become synonymous with natural science - it is because, over time, natural science is the one method for acquiring beliefs about reality that has been irrefutably and demonstrably successful.
The second “axiom,” that reality is not capricious, would mean that reality does not suddenly change. We don’t observe a purple precipitate and then say, “Well, maybe it is really yellow!” That is to say, this “axiom” presupposes the principle of non-contradiction, properly defended in metaphysics. (See Lagrange’s work cited previously.)
I deny that these bases for science are axioms that need to be defended by any metaphysical consideration. They are observations that we make about the universe - we can say that our senses and reason give rise to beliefs that correspond to reality, because that is how we manage to cross the road, never mind live in the universe - anything else is impossible. We say that reality is not capricious, which is the assumption or axiom that the laws of physics in this universe are the same for all places and times - that assumption cannot possibly be validated by metaphysics; it is an assumption based on local observation, and one that observations of distant objects in the early universe do not so far violate.
The proper understanding of the roles of the various science is necessary in order to grasp why the reality of Adam and Eve and the special creation of man is not the proper domain of natural science alone, but rather belongs primarily to philosophy and theology.
To say that the reality of Adam and Eve belongs primarily to philosophy and theology is to create a fallacy - according to the appropriate method for acquiring true beliefs about the physical universe, natural science, there was no reality of Adam and Eve. It is consistent, however, with the observation that theology is the science of non-existent objects.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
From the paper that’s riddled with error and logical contradiction. It’s too tedious a task to show every place in your short cut and paste where there is error or fallacy; here are just a few:
  • The hierarchy contains both actual sciences (geology, biology, physics) , and things that are not science (ie empirical methods for discovering reality), such as theology and metaphysics: it is a hierarchy of apples and frogs
  • The claim that the scientific study of the physical world demands a non-physical or supernatural cause is simply not true
  • The claim that there is a supernatural domain, the reality of which can be explored by theology, in a way which is analogous to the process of natural science is simply not true - (either that, or theologians are utterly incompetent, because hardly any demonstration of supernatural reality is made to the consensus of practitioners). No theological or metaphysical claim can be tested as can a Natural science claim - the speculations of theology and metaphysics are unconstrained by reality
  • the hierarchy of methods that can be recognised as actual science (geology, biology, physics) omits many important ones (chemistry, for example), and puts those that are mentioned in a bizarre and illogical sequence.
The article really is a dog’s breakfast.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
Your claim then is that what we see is all there is?
 
As you have said elsewhere, we have spent an inordinate amount of effort on miracles, which are peripheral to the question. As a reminder, they were brought up by you as validation of the Church’s truth claims, but as I have pointed out, not only are they poorly evidenced, but, if true, they also lead to intractable philosophical and theological problems for the Catholic notion of God. The belief that the “miracles” at Lourdes arise from divine intervention in the natural order, given the lack of evidence for the proposition that they are ultimately inexplicable in principle by natural means, reveals a rather surprising degree of credulity for a philosopher.
May I respectfully ask you to reread post 33 in this thread. When dealing with Adam and Eve, it is helpful to understand a miracle from the point of view of the Catholic Church.
For long periods of time, throughout the history of the early church, the Dark Ages and the mediaeval period, the Church justified its truth-claims and the holiness of its saints by numerous hagiographic tales of miraculous deeds, some of which have been crystallised into the very dogma of the Church. However, in the light of modern science and the healthy skepticism of the Enlightenment, those sorts of claims have all but dried, up leaving the one miracle per decade at Lourdes as its “melancholy, long, withdrawing roar”.
There are a number of popular misconceptions in the above. The first regards the history of the early church. The second regards “dogma” which is part of the history of the church dating from Pentecost. The third regards miracles as viewed in modern times - see post 33. Note: personally I consider healthy skepticism one of those intangibles which differentiate humans from the rest of the primate crowd. It may even be one of the more important pieces of the “Adam & Eve puzzle”.🙂
Unfortunately, the philosophical problems are problems for the Catholic conception of God -
Let’s not limit the problems to the “Catholic” conception. There are a lot more people, other than Catholics, who are dealing with the philosophical challenges of a transcendent being. Regarding the human being, the old journalism mantra of “who? how? what? when? where? Why? Cost?” can be applied to the discipline of philosophy as well as to the discipline of science. Both disciplines have the right to present their case regarding the literal Adam and Eve.
I beg to differ. This is not the only question before us
The only question referred to is: "whether God can directly create the human spiritual soul at a given point in prehistory. This may be the only question from a theological point of view. But as a descendent of Adam and Eve, I’m going to ask those “who? how? what? when? where? why? cost?” questions of both the scientific discipline and since I believe that my own spirit is different from my own material body, I will repeat my mantra to philosophy.
we are left with the scientific finding that living humans cannot have arisen from two sole ancestors. That alone is sufficient to deny the literal truth of the story of Adam and Eve.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
Wait a minute. I’m not totally convinced that there is one scientific finding. From my reading of the Tree of Life website and the Berkley one and some others, not all of my journalism mantra questions have been answered. Further, there is the real tone of controversy in some of the articles. The jury is still out.

One of the comments about Darwin, which sticks with me, referred to the difference in scientific information back then and today’s mountain of information. It seems obvious that with all this information bouncing around, the question of Adam and Eve’s lineage is still scientifically open. The door is not closed on Adam and Eve.

To be continued…👍

Blessings,
granny

All descendents of Adam and Eve are worthy of profound respect.
 
To hecd2:

Alec,

I realize that you do not accept that genuine miracles occur. We have no meeting of mind here since I point to actual data which you do not concede or deal with, despite the existence of actual detailed medical records at the Lourdes Medical Bureau, which appear not to fit your “accepted” template. The standard recourse that somehow future scientific advances will explain the data again confronts our metaphysical differences, since I would contend that instant creation of healthy tissue where pure pathology previously existed exceeds the power of unaided nature. (See prior examples.) This is, granted, easier for me to contemplate since I know that God exists by reason of philosophical demonstrations which you reject. I know also that God alone can create. [See my “How ‘Creation’ Implies God,” Faith & Reason, 11:3-4 (1985)]. It appears we even differ on the very notion of “creation.” Creation for Catholic philosophers does not mean simply “non-existence” followed temporally by “existence,” but rather the total and absolute dependence of any finite being upon the Infinite Being. Since you also reject the metaphysical first principles as universally valid it is small wonder that you also reject the proofs for God’s existence upon which they depend.

Since you seem so concerned about the “intractable problems” associated with God working miracles, let me address this briefly. Of course, I am aware of the various arguments against the possibility of miracles, but it serves little purpose here to swat each away in turn like a swarm of flies. In principle, there is no problem for Catholic philosophers, since God exists in eternity, utterly outside of time, and creates constantly all that exists in time, including all the natural laws which proceed from that continuous creative act. God does not “change His mind,” nor is He unjust. As the Alpha and the Omega, from all eternity He is unchangably willing that all creation exists as it does, including those moments in which He suspends natural law and intervenes in a special manner to raise the dead or heal the sick, etc., for reasons of His own. He is no more unjust to heal this person than that one than is He so to allow one to be run over by a car and not another. What this objection really addresses is the problem of evil, not miracles, something totally outside this thread’s topic.

When you assume that the natural philosophical species concept is an “invention” of my own, you reveal that you do not know key elements in the history of philosophy, especially in St. Thomas Aquinas. That is the basis of much of our disagreement in this thread, since you dismiss the entire Catholic philosophical tradition as being “outdated and outmoded,” replaced presumably by the findings of modern science. If this is not the essence of a modernistic positivistic approach to religion and values, I know not what is.

You still insist, “The observation that our sensory (name removed by moderator)ut and information processing produce beliefs that correspond to reality, and that that reality is consistent in time and place, is the only required epistemic basis for doing science.” But this “epistemic basis” entails a lot. We cover old ground here. Conventional philosophers (not just Thomists) have long referred to the “epistemological naivete” of positivism. You can defend epistemological realism, but NOT within natural science itself, since, precisely, that would be to assume what you try to prove, namely, that the mind conforms to external reality. The second axiom, that “reality is consistent” amounts to accepting the principle of non-contradiction. You say, “Reality is contradictory, and consistently so.” This is straight out of Alice in Wonderland. I am well aware of modern physical claims that experimental observations entail contradictory explanations. But that does not “undo” non-contradiction. If it really did, then you could not enunciate a thought or sentence about anything without risking the real possibility that its opposite might be true instead. Rather, the full principle continues “…at the same time and in the same respect,” since it is based on the metaphysical insight of being as really distinct from non-being, and the realization that if this is not so, then all reality ceases to be intelligible – including all the experimental “proofs” that reality is contradictory. When apparently “contradictory” findings emerge, reason demands searching for some distinction of perspective which shows that no real contradiction exists. Thus, from one perspective light “must” act as a wave, and from another perspective, it “must” act as a particle, but note these two judgements arise from distinct perspectives. Matter can demonstrate both particle and wave characteristics, but not both at the same time (that is, not within one and the same experimental arrangement). If true contradictions were demonstrable, then all reality would reduce to insanity. Again, science cannot proceed without seeking explanations for all data, since if any data is “excepted,” then no basis exists for ever demanding reasons for things – and the entire project of modern science is over. This is why natural science necessarily presupposes metaphysical first principles and is forever subordinate to metaphysical science.

Concerning human origins, you insist that Pope Pius XII was “not competent to address the issue of whether living humans are descended from two sole parents, or whether human ancestry arises from a much larger breeding population. The scientific findings definitively conclude the latter, and Pius XII is not competent to disagree.” Your certitude about these “scientific findings” is most impressive, but the Catholic perspective requires a bit more caution. Catholics know the miraculous evidence for our Faith, and we know the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception (1858) presupposes the reality of Original Sin. As long as theological monogenism appears to be the only position clearly compatible with Original Sin, we are not rushing to embrace natural scientific inferences which may or may not validly oppose it. As I said previously, “Should the Church speak definitively on this matter, the certitude of Faith will surely find compatibility with sound natural science.” I am confident that sound theology and sound natural science exist in harmony, not conflict.
 
I didn’t deny that science makes these phenomena its territory,I affirmed the fact that these phenomena are also theological territory. Origins,order,and life are the prerogotives of the Creator. Science and Catholic theology are at odds over the same territory – the natural world and how it is to be understood.
Well as we know, whenever scientific and theological truth claims have been at variance, it is almost always the scientific claims which have been accepted.
Naturalistic explanations for origins,order,and life are not compatible with Catholic doctrine,because they don’t allow for God to be working in the world he created. Natural causes are considered to be the only causes at work in the natural world. That assumption affects the way all natural phenomena are explained,and the explanations become alternative doctrines on the natural world. Nature is viewed as wholly self-sufficient and self-acting.
And it has been remarkably successful, don’t you think?
As you know,science can’t test the supernatural. The doctrines of Creation and divine providence can only be tested by reason and logic,with reference to common experience.
Well it seems to me that reason and logic with reference to common experience is a rather good definition of the method of natural science.
Comparative analysis doesn’t demonstrate the validity of the phylogenetic tree.
Of course it does - the idea of common ancestry is the only natural explanation that I am aware for the mountain of evidence from multiple disciplines that point to common ancestry and an inclusive phylogeny.
You first have to buy into the idea that the species are really related by descent on account of their genetic similarities.
No you have it back to front. It is because of the shared genomic features and the precise way in which they are shared that we *conclude *common descent in a nested hierarchy. I note that you haven’t explained shared syntenic pseudogenes, tandem repeats and endogenous retroviruses by any natural explanation other than common descent.
Linnaeus’ system was arbitrary,because he lumped together different species according to their similar physical characteristics,rather than actual reproductive relatedness.
Linnaeus’s system of classification was, as I said anything but arbitrary (it is absurd to claim that it was) - although it was based on an essentialist view of species, it was still the first step in the great biological work of systematics. Since Linnaeus predated Darwin by some time, and the formulator of the BSC (there are other species concepts, you know) by even more, he had nothing to say about common descent, because that concept had not been articulated in his day. It is clear to any observer that organisms cluster according to degrees of morphological similarity - there really are classifications such as bony fish, mammals, beetles etc etc. It is clear that organisms do not exist in an unclassifiable way. Linnaeus began the great task of undertaking that classification without claiming anything or knowing anything about the concept of common ancestry.
The only way to test for relationship through common ancestry is to see if species in question can breed with each other. That would be direct empirical experimentation. But drawing conclusions about common ancestry based on similarities between species without being able to breed the species in question is speculation.
Your claim that using the evidence for common ancestry based on anatomical, biochemical, physiological, genomic and palaeontological data depends on “speculation” is patently false. It is clearly not speculation but the use of overwhelming evidence to make reasonable and parsimonious inferences. That is the way science works. The evidence is such that the biological relatedness of life on earth, and the fact that classifications reflect ancestral history are simply not open questions in science.
Scientists will call a “species” any population that shows distinct characteristics from a larger population,even if they are still genetically capable of breeding together.
No - not according to the BSC. The BSC defines species as that population which interbreeds in the wild. Different species, according to the BSC, are known, in some cases, to be morphologically identical; whereas individuals within a species are known, in some cases, to be morphologically diverse. I think you are somewhat confused about these concepts, and about the scientific method in general.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
Is it OK for a Catholic to believe that we are all descended from a literal Adam and Eve–that all else about evolution is indeed true and that Adam and Eve were the first homo sapiens?
 
Of course it does - the idea of common ancestry is the only natural explanation that I am aware for the mountain of evidence from multiple disciplines that point to common ancestry and an inclusive phylogeny.
in general.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
Are percentages used in genomic comparisons between humans and chimps? Examples please.
Would the fact that land animals need oxygen to breathe point to one common ancestor?

Blessings,
granny

All human life is sacred.
 
My claim is that which we can sense (see, hear, touch, feel, smell), either directly or indirectly, with or without the aid of instruments, is all that we can know exists.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
This is incorrect and points to the heart of your real issue. Your personal omniscience’s, you refute all outside that issue. Your problem is outside science completely yet you hide in science to protect your problem. For example if you worked at a lower level I would say to you “I will not believe until I see” . But in your case I would suggest you look at “how do I know what I know?” The fact is we know what we know by faith, never scientific fact!
 
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