"recovering Catholics"?

[josie_L]

Romans 3:12

All have gone astray;** all alike are worthless;** there is not one who does good, (there is not) even one.

You have some thinking to do. Your asking me this question? Your very own Bible, the New Testament clearly states that all persons are worthless. Your acting like I made this up!

Pro-choice.

Point 1:

It is a human author that is stating we are worthless not God.

Point 2:

Worthless means unworthy, not that we are without value.

Point 3:

Unworthy means that we all have sinned, and would continue to sin if it were not for Jesus our redeemer.

Point 4:

His gift is priceless, eternal and unmerited, hence we did nothing to deserve it, i.e., we are unworthy.

Point 5:

No one is good because no one can claim to have never sinned.

Point 6:

This was written before most people received the Holy Spirit which enabled and/or sanctified us.

Has Jesus restored our original beauty, yes he has. Are we worthy in God’s eyes, well we’d have to be if God was willing to give up his only begotten son.

My question to you is this: Do you believe that unwanted babies are worthless?

 

[qui_est_ce]

Point 1:

It is a human author that is stating we are worthless not God.

Point 2:

Worthless means unworthy, not that we are without value.

Point 3:

Unworthy means that we all have sinned, and would continue to sin if it were not for Jesus our redeemer.

Point 4:

His gift is priceless, eternal and unmerited, hence we did nothing to deserve it, i.e., we are unworthy.

Point 5:

No one is good because no one can claim to have never sinned.

Point 6:

This was written before most people received the Holy Spirit which enabled and/or sanctified us.

Has Jesus restored our original beauty, yes he has. Are we worthy in God’s eyes, well we’d have to be if God was willing to give up his only begotten son.

Great Post.

My question to you is this: Do you believe that unwanted babies are worthless?

“Every child a wanted child” Just throw away the unwanted ones.

 

[guanophore]

The difference being that there is no hell for rejecting Algebra. However your glorious Lord so thoughtfully created such a place for the majority of his children and especially those who reject the Holy Spirit.

I assure you, telling children that there is an invisible God that can read their minds and will punish for eternity any that are unrepentant, is forced indoctrination into a system of belief, that can only be believed by faith.

What 8 year old child of devout Catholics has the choice to opt out of this religious indoctrination? I’d suggest that none have such a choice.

What did you expect from a bronze aged desert God?

Recovering Catholic, although a humorous term, it does touch on truth, in that it takes a long time for many former Catholics to lose their fear of hell and the weight of the rule based system of salvation that is fed to them by the Roman Catholic Church.

I think you make a very good point here that pertains specifically to “recovering Catholics”. All of them that I have met (and there have been dozens) were poorly catechized, and shared this faulty notion of a “rule based system of salvation”. They have never understood that we are saved by grace, through faith, and missed the entire basis of the Gospel message. It is a very good thing to recover from such an error in perception, but it would be even better if the catechesis were improved, so that people were not so prone to falling into this error in the first place!

 

[Robert_in_SD]

“I never wish to attend the death of an Unbeliever again, he cried and begged for forgiveness and mercy all night.”
(Voltaire’s nurse at his deathbed.)

Of course, you are much smarter than Voltaire.

Ouch! uch:

 

[Robert_in_SD]

**Dogma;

a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church: the dogma of the Assumption.**

Your post doesn’t make any sense, not in the least. Your [sic] trying to be clever, but you haven’t even a basic understanding of the language your [sic] employing.

I think the point is that a lack of critical thinking is not exclusive to any one group. The denial of the existence of God is as much a dogma to atheists as is the belief in God to theists. If you don’t see that, then it is you who lack the basic understanting of your own antitheist belief system.

Peace,
-Robert

P.S. You used the word “your” incorrectly. If you intended to mean “you are” you should use the contraction you’re. Better yet - use “you are.” The word “your” is an adjective and not a noun. Don’t feel to bad. We all make mistakes and I make my share of them in spades. But, that’s how we learn, right?

 

[SpiritMeadow]

‘distracted’ said it was reasonable that God would protect his Church from error.
You said it was not reasonable. Your reason being if the Church was keep free from error then God would have taken our free will. This is not logical.
After I explained why it was illogical, you wrote “Just by way of argument, one could say that you are right, that is a reasonable conclusion. That however doesn’t make it so, and doesn’t stop a plethora of other reasonable conclusions.”
I agree with you. By logic alone, God may or may not have kept his Church from error. So we are still free to agree or disagree with the claim made by ‘distracted.’ I happen to agree. If you disagree then you need a better argument.

I think you have missed a portion of the ongoing discussion. But I have no idea what the point is now anyway. I don’t think it illogical that God would create a church error free, but that is but one of many reasonable deductions, and there is no proof as to any of them. Logic doesn’t mean truth.

 

[josie_L]

Great Post.

“Every child a wanted child” Just throw away the unwanted ones.

I too know every child has invaluable beauty, unfortunately, Phantasm chooses to believe some are worthless. The irony is he does not realize this. And so he feels justified in calling God cruel while playing the martyr.

 

[phantasm]

Do you believe that unwanted babies are worthless?

I don’t, but Christianity teaches that all babies, both wanted and unwanted are worthless.

Worthless, does mean, without value. Don’t try and make up English definitions.

Worthless - without worth; of no use, importance, or value; good-for-nothing

**Romans 3:12

All have gone astray; all alike are worthless; there is not one who does good, (there is not) even one.**

You can’t just make up English definitions to suit your beliefs.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I too know every child has invaluable beauty, unfortunately, Phantasm chooses to believe some are worthless. The irony is he does not realize this. And so he feels justified in calling God cruel while playing the martyr.

I guess he believes in the Bible after all. He quoted Isaiah 53 earlier that we are worthless without God…

 

[qui_est_ce]

I don’t,

So if you agree that unborn babies have worth, why do you believe in prochoice?

Worthless, does mean, without value. Don’t try and make up English definitions.

Worthless - without worth; of no use, importance, or value; good-for-nothing

**Romans 3:12

All have gone astray; all alike are worthless**; there is not one who does good, (there is not) even one.

You can’t just make up English definitions to suit your beliefs.

You are just like Fund. Ev. You lift text out of context and base your system of belief on distorted theology. Without Christ, our lives are worthless. If you read the whole Isaiah 53, you will see we have worth because Jesus died for us.

Eerie how that verse prefigures Jesus’ death 1,000 years before.

 

[phantasm]

Without Christ, our lives are worthless.

Tell that to the 5 billion non-Christians.

Eerie how that verse prefigures Jesus’ death 1,000 years before

Amazing how the Biblical authors fine tuned the new testament to align with the old testament prophecies!

 

[qui_est_ce]

Tell that to the 5 billion non-Christians.

Jesus save EVERYBODY. The whole world. Even those who do not believe in him.

Are you sure you used to be Catholic? You have a lot of mis perceptions.

Catechism
Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the* free and undeserved *help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

Nothing we say or do or believe merits this freely given gift of salvation.

Your sarcastic and negative approach speaks volumes about your inner karma.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

I don’t, but Christianity teaches that all babies, both wanted and unwanted are worthless.

Worthless, does mean, without value. Don’t try and make up English definitions.

Worthless - without worth; of no use, importance, or value; good-for-nothing

**Romans 3:12

All have gone astray; all alike are worthless**; there is not one who does good, (there is not) even one.

You can’t just make up English definitions to suit your beliefs.

That’s not what the Church teaches. The Church teaches that all life is sacred and of immense value because all life comes from God. In Rom. 3, Paul was preaching about our ability to save ourselves, not about the inate value and dignity of the human person. The Church is the most vocal defender of the sanctity and protection of life from conception to natural death in the public arena today.

The Catechism plainly sets forth the teaching on the dignity of the person:

I. RESPECT FOR THE HUMAN PERSON

1929 Social justice can be obtained only in respecting the transcendent dignity of man. The person represents the ultimate end of society, which is ordered to him:
What is at stake is the dignity of the human person, whose defense and promotion have been entrusted to us by the Creator, and to whom the men and women at every moment of history are strictly and responsibly in debt.35
1930 Respect for the human person entails respect for the rights that flow from his dignity as a creature. These rights are prior to society and must be recognized by it. They are the basis of the moral legitimacy of every authority: by flouting them, or refusing to recognize them in its positive legislation, a society undermines its own moral legitimacy.36 If it does not respect them, authority can rely only on force or violence to obtain obedience from its subjects. It is the Church’s role to remind men of good will of these rights and to distinguish them from unwarranted or false claims.

1931 Respect for the human person proceeds by way of respect for the principle that "everyone should look upon his neighbor (without any exception) as ‘another self,’ above all bearing in mind his life and the means necessary for living it with dignity."37 No legislation could by itself do away with the fears, prejudices, and attitudes of pride and selfishness which obstruct the establishment of truly fraternal societies. Such behavior will cease only through the charity that finds in every man a “neighbor,” a brother.

1932 The duty of making oneself a neighbor to others and actively serving them becomes even more urgent when it involves the disadvantaged, in whatever area this may be. "As you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me."38

1933 This same duty extends to those who think or act differently from us. The teaching of Christ goes so far as to require the forgiveness of offenses. He extends the commandment of love, which is that of the New Law, to all enemies.39 Liberation in the spirit of the Gospel is incompatible with hatred of one’s enemy as a person, but not with hatred of the evil that he does as an enemy.

To suggerst that the Catholic Church teaches the worthlessness of human beings is incredibly ill-informed, if not purposefully misleading. I hope this was just a misunderstanding on your part.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[josie_L]

I don’t, but Christianity teaches that all babies, both wanted and unwanted are worthless.

Worthless, does mean, without value. Don’t try and make up English definitions.

Worthless - without worth; of no use, importance, or value; good-for-nothing

**Romans 3:12

All have gone astray; all alike are worthless**; there is not one who does good, (there is not) even one.

You can’t just make up English definitions to suit your beliefs.

Point 1:

Don’t try to (mis)interpret the Bible for me, thank you very much.

Point 2:

Only someone obsessed with proving oneself right would disregard the self-sacrificing act of the Cross, the very foundation of our faith.

Point 3:

Stop quoting scripture out of context, and take into consideration the overall message/ focus of the New Testament.

Point 4:

Modern English definitions mean nothing to mean in light of the fact that the Bible was written within a culture set 2000 years ago using a different language, definitions and meanings different to our own, a style of writing unique to a people and place in time (like idioms for example) . . .etc.

You lie when you say that you don’t believe babies are worthless for that in effect is what you state when you proclaim yourself Pro-Choice. Again, the irony of your statements alludes you.

 

[phantasm]

Jesus save EVERYBODY. The whole world. Even those who do not believe in him.

Are you sure you used to be Catholic? You have a lot of mis perceptions.

Your sarcastic and negative approach speaks volumes about your inner karma.

Absolutely, I was a Roman Catholic my entire life. In my 20’s, for about 2 years, I tried to be devout, fell astray.

In my late 20’s, to my early 30’s, for six years I was a devout Roman Catholic, in that there is no doubt. Believe it, don’t, it is of no concern. You are no different than a fundamentalist protestant who tells me that I was a " fake Christian". LOL

Karma does not exist.

 

[phantasm]

self-sacrificing act of the Cross, the very foundation of our faith.

Uhm, God is immortal and the most powerful entity in existence. If I was immortal and that powerful, I could sacrifice myself everyday.

Stop quoting scripture out of context, and take into consideration the overall message/ focus of the New Testament.

You want me to spin it in your direction. You want me to take a crystal clear bit of scripture, like God giving children a bowel plague, or she-bears killing children, and twist into something beautiful and Holy!

Point 4:

Modern English definitions mean nothing

Black frank job hotel corrando door cup diego pool chair donought.

You follow that? Maybe modern English definitions do have value!

You lie when you say that you don’t believe babies are worthless for that in effect is what you state when you proclaim yourself Pro-Choice. Again, the irony of your statements alludes you.

Zygotes are not babies, they are zygotes. sigh

 

[phantasm]

To suggerst that the Catholic Church teaches the worthlessness of human beings is incredibly ill-informed, if not purposefully misleading. I hope this was just a misunderstanding on your part.

I quoted scripture.

Are you suggesting that the Catholic Church disagree’s with scripture or that the Catholic Church simply interprets a clear bit of scripture differently?

 

[qui_est_ce]

Absolutely, I was a Roman Catholic my entire life. In my 20’s, for about 2 years, I tried to be devout, fell astray.

In my late 20’s, to my early 30’s, for six years I was a devout Roman Catholic, in that there is no doubt. Believe it, don’t, it is of no concern. You are no different than a fundamentalist protestant who tells me that I was a " fake Christian". LOL

.

Well, then, why don’t you know what the Church teaches? Why are you misrepresenting the Bible? I don’t believe you were a “fake” Catholic, because you must have been baptized. You are a misinformed Catholic.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Uhm, God is immortal and the most powerful entity in existence. If I was immortal and that powerful, I could sacrifice myself everyday.

You anthropomorphize God as just like the primitives you disdain.

You want me to spin it in your direction. You want me to take a crystal clear bit of scripture, like God giving children a bowel plague, or she-bears killing children, and twist into something beautiful and Holy!

Your posts are very shallow for a person who claims an intellect superior to those who believe in myths, superstitions, and fairy tales.

Zygotes are not babies, they are zygotes. sigh

Define baby. When does human life come into existence?

 

[phantasm]

Why are you misrepresenting the Bible? .

I’m not. I’m interpreting using something called, common sense and I refuse to spin obvious verses to be something that they are not.

Like when Lot offers to send out his own daughter to be raped by the mob. I interpret that as it is, Lot is a terrible father, a low life coward who refused to take on the mob himself.

Who if he lived today, would have his daughter removed from his care and placed in protective custody.

See how easy that is. If you heard about a man who had a buddy over for beers, and an angry mob wanted to rape that buddy, then that man offered the mob his daughter to rape and abuse…what on earth would you think?

’ He’s a Holy righteous man, thinking of his poor friend’

No, the guys a piece of garbage, a low life loser and doesn’t deserve to even have kids.

Apply real life to the Bible and it becomes a terrible, terrible book filled with horrible stories and awful values.