Recreational Sex

[Sister_Terese]

So no means of contraception can be involved in marital sex? I think Onan could come into play here.

Genesis 38:9
Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother.

The fact that you even bring this up in this discussion tells me that you already know that is is an evil act and is forbidden by the Church. I think you have a problem.

 

[Rayvin]

Just putting it out there - The Catholic view of sex is unfortunately somewhat unsustainable in an overpopulated world. I’m not sure what the eventual endpoint would be, but we’d either all have to be celibate most of our lives or we’d have to be finding ways around it.

I seem to recall that the Church stated it is permissible to have sex at the time of the month when the woman can’t get pregnant. If that’s true then they have basically advocated sex for pleasure only. I can’t see the distinction between that and using a condom to be honest.

I stand ready to be corrected though.

My final point would be that if everything you do with your partner is based in love and mutual respect, you aren’t going far wrong.

 

[Edward_H]

Just putting it out there - The Catholic view of sex is unfortunately somewhat unsustainable in an overpopulated world. I’m not sure what the eventual endpoint would be, but we’d either all have to be celibate most of our lives or we’d have to be finding ways around it.

I seem to recall that the Church stated it is permissible to have sex at the time of the month when the woman can’t get pregnant. If that’s true then they have basically advocated sex for pleasure only. I can’t see the distinction between that and using a condom to be honest.

I stand ready to be corrected though.

My final point would be that if everything you do with your partner is based in love and mutual respect, you aren’t going far wrong.

Have you looked at the current “children per couple” rates of nearly any industrialized country? 2.1 or less…which in demographic circles is considered declining.

Have you ever wondered about couples who have less than 3 children? Who do you think is going to pay for their social security, Medicare, disability, food stamps, etc?

We’ve been aborting or contracepting our 'sustainment"

 

[YosefYosep]

The fact that you even bring this up in this discussion tells me that you already know that is is an evil act and is forbidden by the Church. I think you have a problem.

Well I am aware of the Catholic Church’s teachings, but I have received ambiguous answers on this subject from both priests and friends. Yes, I kid you not, priests have given me strange answers on this. I’m trying to dissect the issue. Please don’t think I have a problem. It seems like you’re trying to deduce me and I find it quite insulting. Anyways I don’t want to get in a side argument about whether or not I have a problem. Sorry if I confused you.

 

[Edward_H]

Well I am aware of the Catholic Church’s teachings, but I have received ambiguous answers on this subject from both priests and friends. Yes, I kid you not, priests have given me strange answers on this. I’m trying to dissect the issue. Please don’t think I have a problem. It seems like you’re trying to deduce me and I find it quite insulting. Anyways I don’t want to get in a side argument about whether or not I have a problem. Sorry if I confused you.

Well if you “were aware of the Cathoilic Church’s teachings” on contracepting you might have framed your question a bit differently.

So you are aware that contracepting is an evil act, but you’re not sure why?

Well, it’s separating or dividing the gift of sex. It’s taking one part from God, and rejecting the other. Abstinence doesn’t do that.

It’s taking the good feeling…and saying ‘I don’t want the full gift’, which might be another child, an even more important and substantial gift. A child or another child might just be what God needs in order to do some great work. A child can help parents learn great virtue…to make them less selfish…or a million other sanctifying benefits. Contracepting is really seeing with only temporal eyes, not seeing things through the eyes of God, which is an act of faith.

It’s really an act of “superficializing” love. Making love less than it is. And that’s the devil’s work…divide and superficialize.

 

[YosefYosep]

Well if you “were aware of the Cathoilic Church’s teachings” on contracepting you might have framed your question a bit differently.

So you are aware that contracepting is an evil act, but you’re not sure why?

Well, it’s separating or dividing the gift of sex. It’s taking one part from God, and rejecting the other. Abstinence doesn’t do that.

It’s taking the good feeling…and saying ‘I don’t want the full gift’, which might be another child, an even more important and substantial gift. A child or another child might just be what God needs in order to do some great work. A child can help parents learn great virtue…to make them less selfish…or a million other sanctifying benefits. Contracepting is really seeing with only temporal eyes, not seeing things through the eyes of God, which is an act of faith.

It’s really an act of “superficializing” love. Making love less than it is. And that’s the devil’s work…divide and superficialize.

Thanks! That’s a really nice way of putting it. Yes, I was aware that contracepting is wrong, but as to why it was, I had no clue. Sorry again for the confusion.

 

[Rayvin]

Have you looked at the current “children per couple” rates of nearly any industrialized country? 2.1 or less…which in demographic circles is considered declining.

Have you ever wondered about couples who have less than 3 children? Who do you think is going to pay for their social security, Medicare, disability, food stamps, etc?

We’ve been aborting or contracepting our 'sustainment"

Right…so as for the 900 million Catholics living in non-industrialised countries, what about them? Over population, starvation and infectious disease are what they can look forward to. Or are you suggesting that it should be one rule for them and another for us?

 

[Edward_H]

Right…so as for the 900 million Catholics living in non-industrialised countries, what about them? Over population, starvation and infectious disease are what they can look forward to. Or are you suggesting that it should be one rule for them and another for us?

They’re going to feed our single children.

 

[Rayvin]

They’re going to feed our single children.

I’m not even sure what you mean by that. It sounds somewhat sinister to be frank. Do you mean they will sustain the rest of the world? Despite starving themselves?

 

[Edward_H]

I’m not even sure what you mean by that. It sounds somewhat sinister to be frank. Do you mean they will sustain the rest of the world? Despite starving themselves?

Because our industrialized societies are organically (i.e., excluding immigration) declining, owing to the fact that we’ve lost our understanding of what true love is (see my post above about our “splitting the gift of sex”), AND because we have engineered our society and social systems such that someone else’s work pays for us when we retire, we are demographically unsustainable.

So who will feed us? Millions and millions in other countries, some of whom our governments in the coming years will gladly open our borders to…because of the burden of social security, Medicare created by the retiring adults who contracepted or aborted.

Others of them will feed us from their countries.

Not a nice picture. Not what God had intended.

 

[Rayvin]

Because our industrialized societies are organically (i.e., excluding immigration) declining, owing to the fact that we’ve lost our understanding of what true love is (see my post above about our “splitting the gift of sex”), AND because we have engineered our society and social systems such that someone else’s work pays for us when we retire, we are demographically unsustainable.

So who will feed us? Millions and millions in other countries, some of whom our governments in the coming years will gladly open our borders to…because of the burden of social security, Medicare created by the retiring adults who contracepted or aborted.

Others of them will feed us from their countries.

Not a nice picture. Not what God had intended.

I’d agree on your final point, but I would rather suggest that this is caused by globalisation and international pursuit of profits/cheap labour. There are plenty of young people who can work in the UK but aren’t because of poor government economic management and lack of jobs. I think it’s 25-30% of our young people in fact. There’s definitely enough of them for the jobs available. (Moreover if people had had fewer children before this generation, we wouldn’t need so many people to sustain them - your proposition would see ever increasing populations and ever reducing resources).

Also, it would be irresponsible for us to continue with birth rates like the emerging nations. We can’t sustain ourselves with food and energy now, let alone if each family was having 8 children. That has everything to do with our greed and little to do with our love. Populations around the world will be reduced eventually, and we are fortunate that ours may be reduced simply through responsible parenting, and not through widespread famine or war.

It is hard to accept that such social recklessness as you’re suggesting could possibly be the will of God.

 

[Michael1966]

Also, it would be irresponsible for us to continue with birth rates like the emerging nations. We can’t sustain ourselves with food and energy now, let alone if each family was having 8 children. That has everything to do with our greed and little to do with our love. Populations around the world will be reduced eventually, and we are fortunate that ours may be reduced simply through responsible parenting, and not through widespread famine or war.

I agree - teachings on contraception come from an age where land seemed pretty unlimited. When we have married priests I imagine the view within the priesthood will start to change. With respect, single men aren’t always those best placed to understand married life, though thankfully the Church does leave it up to the conscience of the couple.

 

[wxornot]

If by “recreational,” you mean that a married couple is ONLY having sex for the physical pleasure of it than that is of grave matter as the spouses are lusting after one another–viewing one another as objects. The marital act is meant to be one of bonding at a profound level. I suggest you look into “Theology of the Body.”

Not true. As long as you are open to life…it is fine.

 

[tafan]

Right…so as for the 900 million Catholics living in non-industrialised countries, what about them? Over population, starvation and infectious disease are what they can look forward to. Or are you suggesting that it should be one rule for them and another for us?

You need to update your knowledge about emerging economies. There is a rapidly growing middle class in many of these countries. Few of them lack natural resources. Blaming economic difficulties in these countries on over population is completely unsupportable.

 

[wxornot]

If by “recreational,” you mean that a married couple is ONLY having sex for the physical pleasure of it than that is of grave matter as the spouses are lusting after one another–viewing one another as objects. The marital act is meant to be one of bonding at a profound level. I suggest you look into “Theology of the Body.”

Rubbish. As long as you are open to God’s gift of new life it is fine. you sound like another Mel Gibson “holier than thou” Catholic.

 

[wxornot]

You need to update your knowledge about emerging economies. There is a rapidly growing middle class in many of these countries. Few of them lack natural resources. Blaming economic difficulties in these countries on over population is completely unsupportable.

 

[Rayvin]

You need to update your knowledge about emerging economies. There is a rapidly growing middle class in many of these countries. Few of them lack natural resources. Blaming economic difficulties in these countries on over population is completely unsupportable.

My friend, China has 1/6 of the World’s population and 8% of the world’s water. Do you not see a problem there? I lived there for a year. People die. 1.5 million suffer from AIDS. This is a country with a one child policy. Can you imagine the devastation if they followed a doctrine of ‘all sex must offer the chance for life’?

And regardless of whether they have sufficient resource now, it is surely an unarguable fact that following your way of thinking will eventually result in a lack of food to go around. What then?

A quick Google search raised this article:

businessweek.com/articles/2012-11-21/why-cant-india-feed-its-people#p1

India can’t feed it’s people because we’re buying their grain to feed our own. And because they have so many people. Note how he mentions his community is more starved now than they were in the 70s. Just because the news over here isn’t reporting it, doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.

 

[Edward_H]

I’d agree on your final point, but I would rather suggest that this is caused by globalisation and international pursuit of profits/cheap labour. There are plenty of young people who can work in the UK but aren’t because of poor government economic management and lack of jobs. I think it’s 25-30% of our young people in fact. There’s definitely enough of them for the jobs available. (Moreover if people had had fewer children before this generation, we wouldn’t need so many people to sustain them - your proposition would see ever increasing populations and ever reducing resources).

Also, it would be irresponsible for us to continue with birth rates like the emerging nations. We can’t sustain ourselves with food and energy now, let alone if each family was having 8 children. That has everything to do with our greed and little to do with our love. Populations around the world will be reduced eventually, and we are fortunate that ours may be reduced simply through responsible parenting, and not through widespread famine or war.

It is hard to accept that such social recklessness as you’re suggesting could possibly be the will of God.

Malthus was wrong then and today. High growth rates in developing nations are not caused by a spike in births, but by longer lives allowed by the introduction of vaccines, water purification, etc. Over time, there is stabilization. With the push for abortion and contraception, decline, as most industrialized nations are experiencing today.

 

[Edward_H]

My friend, China has 1/6 of the World’s population and 8% of the world’s water. Do you not see a problem there? I lived there for a year. People die. 1.5 million suffer from AIDS. This is a country with a one child policy. Can you imagine the devastation if they followed a doctrine of ‘all sex must offer the chance for life’?

And regardless of whether they have sufficient resource now, it is surely an unarguable fact that following your way of thinking will eventually result in a lack of food to go around. What then?

A quick Google search raised this article:

businessweek.com/articles/2012-11-21/why-cant-india-feed-its-people#p1

India can’t feed it’s people because we’re buying their grain to feed our own. And because they have so many people. Note how he mentions his community is more starved now than they were in the 70s. Just because the news over here isn’t reporting it, doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.

Oh…is it because China doesn’t promote contraception, abortion, one child…that it is so large? Or because it doesn’t allow families to make their own decisions as to where they live, what they can own, where they work, how they act?

 

[Edward_H]

Rubbish. As long as you are open to God’s gift of new life it is fine. you sound like another Mel Gibson “holier than thou” Catholic.

Not quite so. If we are pursing sex for our own pleasure…compared to making our spouse feel as loved as no other on the face of the earth…to please God, then we need to think about the purity of intention of our marital acts.

We should enter intimacy with no selfish motive, but merely as a total self gift to the other as a gift or offering to God. Sex can resemble the Trinity…a communion or a total exchange of love.

The poster is right…read the Theology of Body WELL. No need to resort to low drive by smears of more informed people using some nasty Mel Gibson detraction.