Red or white?

[Phemie]

My diocese doesn’t usually use wine, but when they do, in my experience they’ve always been red.

I remember hearing from someone that non-alcoholic wine is also used though, especially in schools and the such.

What do you mean by the first statement?? Don’t use wine?? So Mass is rarely celebrated in your diocese? Because you can’t have one without the other.

 

[YoungTradCath]

My diocese doesn’t usually use wine, but when they do, in my experience they’ve always been red. However, it’s been -]some/-] a long time since I’ve last tasted it, so I don’t really remember anything else about it, apart from the humbling experience of receiving communion in both species.

I remember hearing from someone that non-alcoholic wine is also used though, especially in schools and the such.

Um, what? Mass isn’t valid without wine. You can not, absolutely can not, with no exceptions, have a mass without wine.

Non-alcoholic wine isn’t wine, so all those masses are invalid, too.

I really hope you’re just mistaken.

 

[Filii_Dei]

What do you mean by the first statement?? Don’t use wine?? So Mass is rarely celebrated in your diocese? Because you can’t have one without the other.

Um, what? Mass isn’t valid without wine. You can not, absolutely can not, with no exceptions, have a mass without wine.

Non-alcoholic wine isn’t wine, so all those masses are invalid, too.

I really hope you’re just mistaken.

Relax people. I should have phrased it better. I meant to say using wine for the congregation to communicate. Of course the priest still uses wine. Don’t recoil in horror at the suggestion that my whole diocese is committing sacrilege.

And I don’t know if my friend was mistaken (he’s not particularly savvy), but non-alcoholic wine can be used under certain circumstances, specifically mustum.

 

[Filii_Dei]

What do you mean by the first statement?? Don’t use wine?? So Mass is rarely celebrated in your diocese? Because you can’t have one without the other.

Um, what? Mass isn’t valid without wine. You can not, absolutely can not, with no exceptions, have a mass without wine.

My bad. I should have phrased it better. I meant to say using wine for the congregation to communicate. Of course the priest still uses wine.

Relax guys. It’s not like my whole diocese is committing sacrilege.

No, non-alcoholic ‘wine’ would not be used.

Non-alcoholic wine isn’t wine, so all those masses are invalid, too.

I really hope you’re just mistaken.

I don’t know if my friend got it wrong about whether it was actually non-alcoholic wine (he’s not particularly savvy), but non-alcoholic wine, specifically mustum, can be used under certain circumstances as set out in Protocol 89/78-174 98.

C. Common Norms

1. The Ordinary is competent to give permission for an individual priest or layperson to use low-gluten hosts or mustum. for the celebration of the Eucharist. Permission can be granted habitually, for as long as the situation continues which occasioned the granting of permission.

 

[Filii_Dei]

What do you mean by the first statement?? Don’t use wine?? So Mass is rarely celebrated in your diocese? Because you can’t have one without the other.

Um, what? Mass isn’t valid without wine. You can not, absolutely can not, with no exceptions, have a mass without wine.

My bad. I should have phrased it better. I meant to say using wine for the congregation to communicate. Of course we always use wine for the Consecration.

Relax guys. It’s not like my whole diocese is committing sacrilege.

No, non-alcoholic ‘wine’ would not be used.

Non-alcoholic wine isn’t wine, so all those masses are invalid, too.

I really hope you’re just mistaken.

I don’t know if my friend got it wrong about whether it was actually non-alcoholic wine (he’s not particularly savvy), but non-alcoholic wine, specifically mustum, can be used under certain circumstances as set out in Protocol 89/78-174 98.

C. Common Norms

1. The Ordinary is competent to give permission for an individual priest or layperson to use low-gluten hosts or mustum. for the celebration of the Eucharist. Permission can be granted habitually, for as long as the situation continues which occasioned the granting of permission.

I don’t know if the celebration of Mass with minors is considered a valid reason under that protocol, but it is not entirely illegal to use non-alcoholic wine.

 

[Phemie]

I don’t know if the celebration of Mass with minors is considered a valid reason under that protocol, but it is not entirely illegal to use non-alcoholic wine.

No mustum, which is not simply non-alcoholic wine but a special preparation, can only be used if the priest is an alcoholic, since he must receive under both species, or I assume a lay person who is alcoholic and suffers from celiac disease because otherwise there is no reason why a lay person would have to receive from the cup.

 

[EvelynEVF]

Mustum is not technically non-alcoholic, but it has the same alcohol content as “non-alcoholic” beer, so I could see that it might be confusing. Fresh grape juice (and other fresh fruit juices) just naturally have an alcohol content around .05-.08% It would continue to ferment if left alone, so we pasteurize it to sell it in the store. The high heat in pasteurization kills off the natural yeast, but also evaporates the alcohol. So mustum must be treated some other way to stop fermentation but not destroy the alcohol. The only way that I’m familiar with is freezing.

Mustum is just barely licit, because it isn’t really quite wine, so that’s why special permission is needed, and if others are present at the Mass, regular wine will also be consecrated for them, so as to avoid scandal. Somebody might think it was just grape juice.

 

[Filii_Dei]

No mustum, which is not simply non-alcoholic wine but a special preparation

I fear you misunderstand what a non-alcoholic wine is. It does not have to be completely free of alcohol. It does not have to be a wine that has its alcohol evaporated by pasteurization (which cannot be used as a sacramental wine). It can simply be a mixture that has not been permitted to ferment long enough or at all to produce alcohol, which is mustum. In this regard, there is considerable overlap with what is really just grape juice.

can only be used if the priest is an alcoholic, since he must receive under both species, or I assume a lay person who is alcoholic and suffers from celiac disease because otherwise there is no reason why a lay person would have to receive from the cup

Strictly speaking, that was true under the earlier 1994 letter, but I refer to Protocol 89/78-174 98 issued later in 2003, which give latitude for the local Ordinary to permit the use of mustum for other reasons. The reasons for the use of mustum (or low-gluten bread) as stated in the 1994 letter remain valid, of course, but it does not have to be the only reason for its use. I will not speculate on what else can be considered a valid reason, as it will be up to the educated judgement of the bishop, but I wish to reiterate that under no circumstances am I saying that a mass with minors is one such valid reason.

Again, please understand that I’m not saying that my diocese uses non-alcoholic wine on a regular basis. It was simply a comment I made in the hope that somebody could help me clarify it, and I have no wish to argue over its factuality. I am merely highlighting to you that it is not, as you suggest, an entirely illegal and invalid practice. Let us not belabour this argument and derail the thread.

 

[Filii_Dei]

Mustum is not technically non-alcoholic, but it has the same alcohol content as “non-alcoholic” beer, so I could see that it might be confusing.

Well, and to all intents and purposes, it is non-alcoholic. It has a alcohol content of less than 0.5%, which is its legal definition.

It’s just not alcohol free, which means completely devoid of any alcohol, and is an entirely different term.

 

[EvelynEVF]

Yes, but you’ve already seen in this thread how using the term “non-alcoholic” was immediately misunderstood. Church definitions and government regulation definitions shouldn’t be mix’n’match

 

[Filii_Dei]

Yes, but you’ve already seen in this thread how using the term “non-alcoholic” was immediately misunderstood. Church definitions and government regulation definitions shouldn’t be mix’n’match

To be fair, the Church only defined mustum. As you and I have seen, it’s pretty obvious why it didn’t wish to venture into that hazardous territory of what is or is not non-alcoholic.

 

[Mrs_V]

Wow! I am a recent-ish convert but every mass I have been to so far has used red wine. I had no idea white was allowed too. I just thought that red better represented the precious blood.

Thanks CAF!

 

[dochawk]

Mustum is just barely licit, because it isn’t really quite wine, so that’s why special permission is needed, and if others are present at the Mass, regular wine will also be consecrated for them, so as to avoid scandal. Somebody might think it was just grape juice.

I only encountered it once, twenty-five years ago in college.

The cup I was holding sure smelled like grape juice . . .

After Communion, the priest explained that unfermented wine was allowed for unfermented priests, and that that cup had indeed been wine, not grape juice.

He also described a treatment he’d undone, in which his favorite drink was alternated with saltwater, until the smell of the drink itself was enough to make him vomit . . . and he noted that prists being sick all over the altar during Mass was a problem . .

hawk

 

[Filii_Dei]

After Communion, the priest explained that unfermented wine was allowed for unfermented priests, and that that cup had indeed been wine, not grape juice.

He also described a treatment he’d undone, in which his favorite drink was alternated with saltwater, until the smell of the drink itself was enough to make him vomit . . . and he noted that prists being sick all over the altar during Mass was a problem . .

What was saltwater doing in his favourite drink? And what was both doing on the altar during Mass?

 

[paperwight66]

Filii Dei, you are misunderstanding.

He plainly meant to type ‘alcoholic’ priest instead of ‘unfermented’.

And the saltwater would be some kind of emetic put in his favourite drink which would cause him to vomit. He would then build up an association between his drink and feeling nauseous, (become 'conditioned ’ - heard of Pavlov’s dogs?) so that even seeing or smelling ‘his’ drink would trigger the same response. It’s a treatment/cure for alcoholics.

Assuming that his favourite drink was wine, he would then be triggered into vomiting by the mere sight or smell of it. A problem, if altar wine was close in smell to his favourite wine.

 

[Filii_Dei]

Filii Dei, you are misunderstanding.

He plainly meant to type ‘alcoholic’ priest instead of ‘unfermented’.

And the saltwater would be some kind of emetic put in his favourite drink which would cause him to vomit. He would then build up an association between his drink and feeling nauseous, (become 'conditioned ’ - heard of Pavlov’s dogs?) so that even seeing or smelling ‘his’ drink would trigger the same response. It’s a treatment/cure for alcoholics.

Assuming that his favourite drink was wine, he would then be triggered into vomiting by the mere sight or smell of it. A problem, if altar wine was close in smell to his favourite wine.

I understood what he was trying to say about the priest being an alcoholic, but thanks for clarifying about the role of the salt in the story. I haven’t known many hardcore alcoholics in my time, and I didn’t know that adultering their drinks with salt was one of their methods of fighting their tendencies. Now it all makes sense to me. Thanks.

 

[johnnykins]

Growing up in the Boston area before VII, the wine was always white. As a somewhat typically naughty altar boy, I can attest it was terrible even (especially) in large quantities after a funeral or the 9am weekday Mass.

I never saw red wine used until the implementation of the Mass of Paul VI and reception of the Precious Blood by the congregation. Then red replaced white in pretty short order. I honestly think it was all part of changing what had been the norm before with the typical flighty explanations of it being more appropriate, etc. Every so often, I see white now, though it’s usually red.