"REDEMPTION" and "SALVATION"

[TP2]

What do these words actually mean to Catholics? I have a group of people that come to my Apologetics sessions every week and a few are deeply puzzled that there is little or no communication or clraification to these terms for Catholics while the Protestant Evangelicals seem to hammer away that there actually is a difference. My Mirriam Websters doesn’t have one. To me as a priest, Redemtpion is what Christ did Universally for all mankind and Salvation is tied to it as to our acceptance of what he did or not. If not we are not Saved or Redeemed. If yes, then we are but these words are SYNONYMOUS.

How much better can I FLESH this out for my Parishioners?

 

[Crumpy]

The definitive answer, in terms of the Biblical writings of St Paul, is discussed in section 82 of the New Jerome Biblical Commentary.

This section was written by Fr. Joseph Fitzmyer, SJ.

He looks at Paul’s writings on Justification,Salvation, Reconciliation, Expiation, Repemption, Freedom, Transformation, New Creation, Glorification, and Sanctification.

Even these paragraphs are quite lengthy and impossible to deal with here.

But, Fitzmyer sees all these terms as pointing to essentially the same thing – I know this is an oversimplification, but it is his simplification.

He calls redemption another “image” used by Paul to describe the “Christ event.” Paul uses this directly to reflect on how Jesus’ passion, death, and resurrection set sinners free. He goes on, that the image hearkens back to the OT idea of a coming “redeemer.”

“Salvation” is a common “image” used by Paul to “describe the Christ-event”, and it probably related to (given Paul’s deep Jewish background) to the idea of God delivering his people Israel.

Fitzmyer says that these ten words form a single dodecahedron, and Paul uses a different word when gazing on a different panel of it. “Each one expresses an aspect of the whole.”

Fitzmyer’s essay is very comprehensive and interesting. I found only a couple places where I could detect a bias.

To apply this a protestant’s view would require you to boil down what they are saying, to see if there is anything to quibble about. At least with this reply in hand, you might ask him about the meaning of these other terms that Paul uses. If nothing else, that should keep your friend busy.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Redemption: to buy back. After the fall, we were slaves of Satan by virtue of the stain of original sin. The Sacrifice of Jesus bought back ALL mankind.

Salvation by my bishop

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Chaldean Rite,

I enjoyed your bishop’s lesson. I have a slight difference in perspective with the use of the words sanctification and Justification – eg: The initial sanctification of an infant is in baptism, and perhaps even before – although the ultimate sanctification (cleanliness/holiness) is the culmination of one’s life. eg: where one is most like God who is ALL holy, even thrice.

I see the word Justification in terms of a relationship – a right relationship with one’s brother(s) and with my God rather than what might be construed as merely an external act by God. I do not think either of them is a point in time – only – type of word, but that they compliment each other – the one bringing to fuller realization the other.

I agree, Redemption is where the purchase price is offered for all of the many. That is, there is one sinless body now prepared in which all that have/will/or could be saved from death must be participants. It is not merely a payment to someone for the release of hostages wherein the principle value is lost, but rather it is the very marital donation of flesh which grows into the living son of God. It is a new body which gives the blind back their sight, the lame back their feet, so that they may be once more graceful in the eyes of God.

Salvation, as in salvage, is the recovering of what was lost and wrecked.
Salvage can be lost again, so to the OP – salvation is the success or outcome of redemption in time and hopefully in eternity. I have been saved, I am being saved, and I hope to be saved in eternity. (IMHO)

Thanks for the link…

Peace.

 

[juliamajor]

In Hebrew Go’el was a redeemer (usually a relative) who when you were down on your luck would buy a family member out of slavery. Jesus as Redeemer bought us from the slavery of sin.Salvation very much like redeem. in hebrew Salvation has a sense of"release" or “to spare”.Jesus’ Redemption of us spares or releases us from damnation and sin. Hope that helps!

 

[TP2]

Redemption: to buy back. After the fall, we were slaves of Satan by virtue of the stain of original sin. The Sacrifice of Jesus bought back ALL mankind.

Salvation by my bishop

(By the way, the link to your bishop speaks nothing to “REDEMPTION”.) That’s what I am trying to say here. One or the other is always left out here. I notice that there is nothing even on C.A. that speaks to BOTH as separate issues ehlping to be defined. Surely if we have them both in our Theological terminolgies, surely they sghould each be addressed…especailly here. Am I requesting too much?

I need to explain REDEMPTION and SALVATION to someone and your bishop missed the REDEMPTION part of it. Thank you!

And folks, thank you for all your great wisdom like responses, but… Try to keep it simple… I’m a simple kinda priest… I agree with many of you that Salavation and Redemption are basically Synonmyous and used in varying ways. I still would like a clear cut definition of both. I don’t see any because there aren’t any. Just as The Mirriam Webster’s Dictionary shows. These words are interchangeable. It is just another way certain Protesants like to hit Catholics over the head with. Reality is reality. Salvation means to be saved. Redemption is to be “reprieved”. Where’s the difference?

That’s why I brought this to the forefront because some folks in my local Parish were getting hammered by some Evangelicals over this.

While I think it is such a slow burner of a question, a good straight SIMPLE response is what I am looking for…

Just please, I don’t have time to read books here. I have plenty of my own.

 

[Genesis315]

I would say redemption makes salvation possible–it’s the first step to salvation. Jesus redeems the human race so that they may ultimately be saved. He breaks the chains of sin and death so that we may, if we choose, enter into everlasting communion with God. And what is salvation but eternal communion with God who is love? He who abides in love abides in God. And God has revealed what saving love is in the person of His Son–the way, the truth, and the life–and in His life, death, and resurrection, but also in the life and faith of His Body, the Church.

 

[TP2]

I would say redemption makes salvation possible–it’s the first step to salvation. Jesus redeems the human race so that they may ultimately be saved. He breaks the chains of sin and death so that we may, if we choose, enter into everlasting communion with God. And what is salvation but eternal communion with God who is love? He who abides in love abides in God. And God has revealed what saving love is in the person of His Son–the way, the truth, and the life–and in His life, death, and resurrection, but also in the life and faith of His Body, the Church.

But, respectfully, your giving me a homily. I don’t want one. I just want a simple answer to a simple question. How best can I explain “SALVATION” and REDEMPTION" in Catholic terms to my people. They are sheep, not scholars. I’m not gonna give a theological expose to them. **I need a Catholic defintion addressing these 2 simple synonymous terms. Is it possible? **

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

(By the way, the link to your bishop speaks nothing to “REDEMPTION”.) That’s what I am trying to say here. One or the other is always left out here. I notice that there is nothing even on C.A. that speaks to BOTH as separate issues ehlping to be defined. Surely if we have them both in our Theological terminolgies, surely they sghould each be addressed…especailly here. Am I requesting too much?

I need to explain REDEMPTION and SALVATION to someone and your bishop missed the REDEMPTION part of it. Thank you!

And folks, thank you for all your great wisdom like responses, but… Try to keep it simple… I’m a simple kinda priest… I agree with many of you that Salavation and Redemption are basically Synonmyous and used in varying ways. I still would like a clear cut definition of both. I don’t see any because there aren’t any. Just as The Mirriam Webster’s Dictionary shows. These words are interchangeable. It is just another way certain Protesants like to hit Catholics over the head with. Reality is reality. Salvation means to be saved. Redemption is to be “reprieved”. Where’s the difference?

That’s why I brought this to the forefront because some folks in my local Parish were getting hammered by some Evangelicals over this.

While I think it is such a slow burner of a question, a good straight SIMPLE response is what I am looking for…

Just please, I don’t have time to read books here. I have plenty of my own.

I am aware that the talk given by H.G. did not address redemption, but at least you got a perspective on Salvation.

**622 **The redemption won by Christ consists in this, that he came “to give his life as a ransom for many” (*Mt *20:28), that is, he “loved his own to the end” (*Jn *13:1), so that they might be “ransomed from the futile ways inherited from their fathers” (*1 Pt *1:18).

and I think this is even more clear

**407 **The doctrine of original sin, closely connected with that of redemption by Christ, provides lucid discernment of man’s situation and activity in the world. By our first parents’ sin, the devil has acquired a certain domination over man, even though man remains free. Original sin entails “captivity under the power of him who thenceforth had the power of death, that is, the devil”.Ignorance of the fact that man has a wounded nature inclined to evil gives rise to serious errors in the areas of education, politics, social and morals.

Ephesians 1
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the remission of sins, according to the riches of his grace,

Don’t know if that helps.

 

[Crumpy]

One of the posts above expanded the discussion to “justification.”

IN the New Jerome Biblical Commentary, Fr. Fitzmyer explains that Paul is using a rather technical, legal term. He surmises that Paul is saying this: Owing to the passion, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, we have been justified, that is, we are considered to be as if we had never sinned in the first place.

To be justified is to be more than acquitted of guilt, but to washed clean as if nothing had ever happened. We are thus reverted to the state of being before original sin.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

How about this:

Redemption is what Jesus DID

Salvation is what we RECEIVE

 

[Genesis315]

But, respectfully, your giving me a homily. I don’t want one. I just want a simple answer to a simple question. How best can I explain “SALVATION” and REDEMPTION" in Catholic terms to my people. They are sheep, not scholars. I’m not gonna give a theological expose to them. **I need a Catholic defintion addressing these 2 simple synonymous terms. Is it possible? **

I didn’t realize I was writing one, but isn’t explaining the Gospel to the sheep what homilies are for?

As for definitions I’ll bring them out of my “homily”:

Redemption: “He breaks the chains of sin and death so that we may, if we choose, enter into everlasting communion with God.”

Salvation: “eternal communion with God who is love”

 

[TP2]

Don’t know if that helps.

of course it helps! Your a greeat Christian. I just need this addrerssed in simple terms. Salvation and Redemption? Is there a difference for Catholicvs? I say no… But I guess it isn’t going far enough with the folks so that’s why I am here…lol… Your all doing fine. Just still can’t pin down what These 2 terms have to do With.

 

[Nita]

Hi tp,
The following is from your post #6

I notice that there is nothing even on C.A. that speaks to BOTH as **separate issues **ehlping to be defined. Surely if we have them both in our Theological terminolgies, surely they sghould each be addressed…especailly here. Am I requesting too much?

Note the part I bolded and underlined. That is where the problem lies. Redemption and salvation are not separate issues. Salvation includes ALL the facets of what takes place in bringing us from a fallen sinful state into a state of eternal communion with God. **Salvation includes - redemption, justification, deification, sanctification. ** All of the terms are interrelated.

Next, the terms can be used in two ways:

1. as they apply to Jesus/God (Jesus/God saves, redeems, justifies… us)
2. as they apply to us (We are saved, redeemed, justified, …)

So, there isn’t a simple Catholic definition of the full meaning of salvation that is totally separated from the issue of redemption.
To do so, (to give the impression that salvation is a totally separate issue/activity from redemption), could then give the false impression/understanding to that person that he could be “saved” without having to be redeemed, justified, …

It appears you’ve bumped into a common Protestant mindset that tends to consider each term used in Scripture as having it’s own totally separate sphere of meaning. (I don’t quite know how to express it.) Catholicism sees the relationships, connections, between the actions; the overlapping.

I apologize for going on so long, when what you’re looking for is one liners.

Nita

 

[Nita]

What do these words actually mean to Catholics? I have a group of people that come to my Apologetics sessions every week and a few are deeply puzzled that there is little or no communication or clraification to these terms for Catholics while the Protestant Evangelicals seem to hammer away that there actually is a difference. My Mirriam Websters doesn’t have one. To me as a priest, Redemtpion is what Christ did Universally for all mankind and Salvation is tied to it as to our acceptance of what he did or not. If not we are not Saved or Redeemed. If yes, then we are but these words are SYNONYMOUS.

How much better can I FLESH this out for my Parishioners?

By the way, have you asked these evangelicals for their definitions of salvation and redemption? If so, could you share their answers here? (I think there are some Protestants that understand the term “salvation” only in the very limited sense of not having to go to hell. Of course, even that is dependent on Christ’s redeeming sacrifice!)

Thanks,
Nita

 

[TP2]

Note the part I bolded and underlined. That is where the problem lies. Redemption and salvation are not separate issues. Salvation includes ALL the facets of what takes place in bringing us from a fallen sinful state into a state of eternal communion with God. Salvation includes - redemption, justification, deification, sanctification. All of the terms are interrelated.

BINGO, Nita! You got the point, FINALLY among “all these (souvenirs)” folks, I mean… You banged it out of the ballpark. That’s exactly the way I need to explain it to MY folks… Simple, to the point and well grounded as well.

You are absolutely right in saying that **Protestants have a doctrine for virtually every word in the bible to knock a Catholic sideways and whichever ways. ** The whole existence to their cause, which is self defeatist, is to be able to keep their heads up because they can get ONE UP on those Catholics. Well, that is why we have to have 2 legs up on them!

A home divided is gonna fall, i.e. Anglicanism and Orthodoxy (it too is experiencing many sub divisions in The American Church.) It just doesn’t like to accept that reality. It lives in a plastic bubble which the Truth will burst soon and reunion will not be something we will want so much as they will beg for. But that’s a story for another apologetics thread.

I explained to this person that Salvation and Redemption are intrinsically united to our life in God… I wish CA would speak to these 2 terms, which are basic, more.:

Good Job, NITA! It takes a woman, sometimes…

 

[sandusky]

Salvation is rescue, or deliverance from the consequence of sin; redemption is what accomplished the deliverance, or, what makes the deliverance possible.Redemption — the purchase back of something that had been lost, by the payment of a ransom. The Greek word so rendered is apolutrosis, a word occurring nine times in Scripture, and always with the idea of a ransom or price paid, i.e., redemption by a lutron (see Matt. 20:28; Mark 10:45). There are instances in the LXX. Version of the Old Testament of the use of lutron in man’s relation to man (Lev. 19:20; 25:51; Ex. 21:30; Num. 35:31, 32; Isa. 45:13; Prov. 6:35), and in the same sense of man’s relation to God (Num. 3:49; 18:15).

There are many passages in the New Testament which represent Christ’s sufferings under the idea of a ransom or price, and the result thereby secured is a purchase or redemption (comp. Acts 20:28; 1 Cor. 6:19, 20; Gal. 3:13; 4:4, 5; Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:14; 1 Tim. 2:5, 6; Titus 2:14; Heb. 9:12; 1 Pet. 1:18, 19; Rev. 5:9). The idea running through all these texts, however various their reference, is that of payment made for our redemption. The debt against us is not viewed as simply cancelled, but is fully paid. Christ’s blood or life, which he surrendered for them, is the “ransom” by which the deliverance of his people from the servitude of sin and from its penal consequences is secured. It is the plain doctrine of Scripture that “Christ saves us neither by the mere exercise of power, nor by his doctrine, nor by his example, nor by the moral influence which he exerted, nor by any subjective influence on his people, whether natural or mystical, but as a satisfaction to divine justice, as an expiation for sin, and as a ransom from the curse and authority of the law, thus reconciling us to God by making it consistent with his perfection to exercise mercy toward sinners” (Hodge’s Systematic Theology).
(From Easton’s Bible Dictionary)

 

[Nita]

Salvation is rescue, or deliverance from the consequence of sin;

In addition, Catholics would say that salvation also includes being saved from the presence (within us) of sin itself.

Sin had many consequences: pain, suffering, death, possibility of eternal damnation, concupisence, weakened will, darkened intellect. I’m sure I’ve missed a few! We believe that salvation, when complete, will also remove all these negative consequences (in addition to the freeing from sin noted in the first paragraph). Does the Protestant understanding of salvation include eventual deliverance from all these consequences also? (I’m not sure what is all included in the expression “servitude of sin” in the quote you gave.)

Nita

 

[sandusky]

In addition, Catholics would say that salvation also includes being saved from the presence (within us) of sin itself.

Scripture states that, even in the regenerate, there still exists the principles of sin, and evil (Rom 7:21ff).

Nita:

Sin had many consequences: pain, suffering, death, possibility of eternal damnation, concupisence, weakened will, darkened intellect. I’m sure I’ve missed a few! We believe that salvation, when complete, will also remove all these negative consequences (in addition to the freeing from sin noted in the first paragraph). Does the Protestant understanding of salvation include eventual deliverance from all these consequences also? (I’m not sure what is all included in the expression “servitude of sin” in the quote you gave.)

Nita

Eventually.

With respect to the “servitude of sin,” Romans 6 is a good place to start, and Luther’s Bondage of the Will, is exceptional in its articulation of that problem.

 

[Nita]

Scripture states that, even in the regenerate, there still exists the principles of sin, and evil (Rom 7:21ff).
.

What you refer to here as “principles of sin”, we call concupiscence. We do not consider it sin, but rather an inclination or temptation to sin. As long as we resist the sinful temptations that arise from these disordered passions, we do not sin.