Redemptionis Sacramentum

[Brendan]

It would seem that fractioning can be done PRIOR to the Eucharistic Prayer.

What our parish has done is that to fraction as part of the Preparation of the Altar. Father adds the water to the flagon, pours to his chalice and the remaining wine is fractioned by a sacristan while the celebrant prepares the corporal, paten and chalice for the Eucharistic prayer.

The flagon is then removed from the altar prior to the Eucharistic prayer. (and it even has the advantage that the flagon doesn’t need to be purified, it can just be stuck in the dishwasher when needed )

What can something similar be done elsewhere?

Of course, in the Eastern Catholic Churches one cannot receive just the consecrated bread alone

Not quite true. The Liturgy of the Pre-Sactified Gifts offers the faithful only concecrated Bread. Now granted it is mixed with unconcecrated wine, but the Eucharist in the form of bread is the only species offered.

 

[OhioBob]

Brendan:

What our parish has done is that to fraction as part of the Preparation of the Altar. Father adds the water to the flagon, pours to his chalice and the remaining wine is fractioned by a sacristan while the celebrant prepares the corporal, paten and chalice for the Eucharistic prayer.

The flagon is then removed from the altar prior to the Eucharistic prayer…

That is essentially what our Bishop has directed diocesan churches to start doing by 11/1. In the past, the EMHC’s fractioned the precious blood during the Agnus Dei. Some priests seem to be concerned about all those filled chalices on the altar during the Eucharistic Prayer, but it will only be 2 in our Parish so it shouldn’t be too much. I was at a church that must have had 20 chalices - they are going to have a problem (unless they have a real big altar).

Blessings.

 

[hcverdun]

Here’s an original thought. If we all celebrated the Tridentine Mass, these discussions would be moot. Having followed the progress of Redemptionis while still attending the Mass of my youth, I note that NONE of the provisions contained in the document pertain to the Tridentine Mass. Could it be that the Pope is trying to tell us something? I read some of the earlier posts on the implementation of the doucment but in our diocese, the bishop has taken a don’t call us, we’ll call you position. Other than a small news release by one of his staff, not one word since April. On the other side, few parishioners that I have spoken to are even aware that the document exists. The few that do know of its existence are highly perturbed about the removal of the EMs(I’m not). Some of them are threatening open disobedience(probably an idle threat) but what do you expect when you open Pandora’s box. Sorry to be somewhat petulant, but as an older Catholic who is trying to reconcile current Church practices with Fatima and Vatican II, I am looking for reasons for our current condition. Actually I know the reasons, I just want it to end.

 

[cmom]

Ah yes the Tridentine Mass: where the priest mumbled in Latin with his back to you, and you knew what was happening becuase the bells rang, where most people simply said their rosaries, and the men smoked outside until it was over.
Mass is not something you stand and watch, or sit and admire the choir singing, it is the active worship of the Body of Christ.

 

[cmom]

yinekka:

At our Liturgy Committee tonight our priest said that we could not study Redemptionis Sacramentum because it is meant to be used when the new Mass translation comes out. I didn’t correct father but I wondered why it is available on the Vatican website and on EWTN if it is not to be studied until some time in the future.

Can anyone help me on this?

Our diocese says everything in RS must be implemented by the Fisrt Sunday of Advent. No discussion or delays.

 

[Joan_M]

cmom:

Ah yes the Tridentine Mass: where the priest mumbled in Latin with his back to you, and you knew what was happening becuase the bells rang, where most people simply said their rosaries, and the men smoked outside until it was over. Mass is not something you stand and watch, or sit and admire the choir singing, it is the active worship of the Body of Christ.

Perhaps that was your experience, or even just what you heard. It was not my experience. Most of us had Missals that had both Latin and English, so we followed what the priest was saying, and knew what the acolyte was responding. Yes, some people said the rosary - mainly those without Missals. I’ve never seen men smoking outside until it was over. The men where I went to Mass were in the pews, like everyone else!

We might not have been responding aloud - but we were following, and we were actively involved in the Sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[deogratias]

cmom:

Ah yes the Tridentine Mass: where the priest mumbled in Latin with his back to you, and you knew what was happening becuase the bells rang, where most people simply said their rosaries, and the men smoked outside until it was over.
Mass is not something you stand and watch, or sit and admire the choir singing, it is the active worship of the Body of Christ.

I have a hunch that you never actually remember Mass prior to 1962 - not as an adult anyway - so maybe you have heard these things and believe them to be true. But it was not my experience either - not then and not now.

 

[deogratias]

Here’s an original thought. If we all celebrated the Tridentine Mass, these discussions would be moot.

But the fact is that you and I and a few others attend Mass using the 1962 Missal but many others do not. So for the majority we can hope this is an improvement in the abuses they have had to suffer.

Having followed the progress of Redemptionis while still attending the Mass of my youth, I note that NONE of the provisions contained in the document pertain to the Tridentine Mass

Of course not - because they apply to the normative Mass said today which is not the Indult Mass.

Could it be that the Pope is trying to tell us something?

Yes indeed he is. He is trying to tell the Bishops that he wishes the Eucharist to be treated with the respect due it and that they should not allow the abuses that have occurred in the celebration of the N.O. Mass but he is not saying they should not have the N.O. Mass. He feels so strongly about this that he has also told the lay population that they should report these abuses to the Bishops or even to the Holy See.

On the other side, few parishioners that I have spoken to are even aware that the document exists.

This should come as no surprise to you - many Catholics do not know that any of the documents or Vatican II or prior to Vatican II exist. Many people loyal to the pre-1970 Missal have never read any Vatican II documents. When I was younger, I had never read any Church documents. Just prayer books and my missal. People who participate in this and other Catholic forums are more aware of the Church documents available to them and the Vatican Web site has made them available to all who have computers. But that is a small percentage of the world’s Catholics.

Regardless of which Mass we attend, we must trust that the Holy Spirit will lead His Church where He will. As an “old Catholic” you must understand that one thing God loves is that his children be obedient.]

 

[pnewton]

deogratias:

People who participate in this and other Catholic forums are more aware of the Church documents available to them and the Vatican Web site has made them available to all who have computers. But that is a small percentage of the world’s Catholics.

We are a rather slanted cross-section of Catholicism, aren’t we.

Thank you for your balanced answer to cmon and hcverdun. I, too, felt that the idea that RS was implying it was time to go back to the Tridentine Mass just wrong. God bless those that like it, but if one puts personal wants ahead of Church discipline one will end up “kicking against the pricks” as St. Paul put it.

 

[deogratias]

pnewton:

We are a rather slanted cross-section of Catholicism, aren’t we.

Thank you for your balanced answer to cmon and hcverdun. I, too, felt that the idea that RS was implying it was time to go back to the Tridentine Mass just wrong. God bless those that like it, but if one puts personal wants ahead of Church discipline one will end up “kicking against the pricks” as St. Paul put it.

I have said it before and I’ll repeat it again because it has such wisdom - one can fall into the ditch on either side of the road.

Obedience to God’s laws which include the laws of the Church is probably one of the greatest things we can do to show our love for God by being obedient. It does help us to do this if we look at it as an act of love and sacrifice as you imply. Understanding of the “why” of the rules helps so much.

 

[Hudsonite]

Here is my take on this:
By recieving the Precious Blood you are recieving the covenant.
The ten commandments. Do you honor your father and mother, not only on earth but in heaven as well? Have you commited adultry? Adultry encompasses more than we think…If your God is sometimes money, house, boat etc, than you have committed adultry.You have loved these things more than God. Thou shall not steal, this may not only be physical things…I could probrably go through all 10 but I wont. But this is why not many recieve the Precious Blood. The Body gives us the Graces to be able to yes to the covenant but we are human, and in our weakness, we tend to say to yes to other things first without even realizing it.