Reductio argument: humans not infinitely valuable

[spencelo]

Proverbs 12:10.

That passage can be interpreted in different ways since the level of “care” isn’t specified.

 

[Crescentinus]

Moderators, please move this thread to the Philosophy subforum.

 

[OU812]

That passage can be interpreted in different ways since the level of “care” isn’t specified.

Well, I think it’s safe to assume that beating or torturing an animal doesn’t befall under “care.”

 

[spencelo]

Well, I think it’s safe to assume that beating or torturing an animal doesn’t befall under “care.”

Care doesn’t necessarily mean “care all the time.” Suppose my torturer cares for his dog every day of the year but one – the last day he tortures the dog. Does my torturer satisfy God’s “care” requirement?

 

[OU812]

Care doesn’t necessarily mean “care all the time.” Suppose my torturer cares for his dog every day of the year but one – the last day he tortures the dog. Does my torturer satisfy God’s “care” requirement?

Guy, you omit certain things I said before and then keep conjuring up newer questions. Even for that one day, what purpose does it serve other than to satisfy one’s sadistic appetite, and how does this help, satisfy - whatever - the dog in what way?

 

[LilyM]

Care doesn’t necessarily mean “care all the time.” Suppose my torturer cares for his dog every day of the year but one – the last day he tortures the dog. Does my torturer satisfy God’s “care” requirement?

Of course not. God is not a part-time carer, but one who cares every moment of every day. He calls us to be like Him in this. So yes, He calls us to care every moment of every day, as He would. Christianity 101, mate.

 

[spencelo]

Guy, you omit certain things I said before and then keep conjuring up newer questions. Even for that one day, what purpose does it serve other than to satisfy one’s sadistic appetite, and how does this help, satisfy - whatever - the dog in what way?

My point is that the biblical passage you cited doesn’t clearly prohibit the torture in my example, because the torturer can still say he takes “care” of his dog every day of the year but one.

 

[OU812]

My point is that the biblical passage you cited doesn’t clearly prohibit the torture in my example, because the torturer can still say he takes “care” of his dog every day of the year but one.

And if someone had gastrointestinal surgery with their surgeon telling them not to eat anything for 3 days, they could also rationalize that a nibble here and there isn’t the same as eating.

 

[spencelo]

Of course not. God is not a part-time carer, but one who cares every moment of every day. He calls us to be like Him in this as in all things. So He calls us to care every moment of every day, as He would.

That’s one interpretation but not necessarily the only one. No dog owner I know cares for his or her dog “every moment of every day” – that’s practically impossible. But obviously, the “care” principle doesn’t seem to extend to my cancer patient scenario. Why not?

 

[spencelo]

And if someone had gastrointestinal surgery with their surgeon telling them not to eat anything for 3 days, they could also rationalize that a nibble here and there isn’t the same as eating.

Not analogous because the instruction to not eat anything for 3 days is very specific – no food for 72 hours.

 

[OU812]

Not analogous because the instruction to not eat anything for 3 days is very specific – no food for 72 hours.

Says the guy who thinks taking care of an animal can be ambiguous and that there is no timetable for a person taking care of said animal.

 

[spencelo]

Says the guy who thinks taking care of an animal can be ambiguous and that there is no timetable for a person taking care of said animal.

It all depends on what the term means in the biblical passage, and it’s not clear to me that care means “no mistreatment ever.”

 

[LilyM]

That’s one interpretation but not necessarily the only one. No dog owner I know cares for his or her dog “every moment of every day” – that’s practically impossible. But obviously, the “care” principle doesn’t seem to extend to my cancer patient scenario. Why not?

Of course they do (or can) - don’t you at least aspire to care for your loved ones all the time? Even when you’re not physically with them? Even when they don’t physically need anything from you and so you’re not physically or materially doing anything for them? Even when it’s practically impossible for you to do anything for them? Would you say you stop caring for them during the eight hours you’re asleep or something? Care is an attitude as well as an action - not far removed from love. And yes, it can be and often is quite constant.

 

[OU812]

It all depends on what the term means in the biblical passage, and it’s not clear to me that care means “no mistreatment ever.”

Once again, what purpose would mistreatment of animal serve other than one’s sadistic nature?

 

[spencelo]

Of course they do (or can) - don’t you at least aspire to care for your loved ones all the time? Even when you’re not physically with them? Even when they don’t physically need anything from you and so you’re not physically or materially doing anything for them? Even when it’s practically impossible for you to do anything for them? Would you say you stop caring for them during the eight hours you’re asleep or something? Care is an attitude as well as an action - not far removed from love. And yes, it can be and often is quite constant.

You’re using “care” in a different sense, and it’s not clear that the passage has the sense you have in mind. Consider the constitutionally required care of prisoners: the standard is so pathetically low that it allows many forms mistreatment and abuse to occur (e.g., verbal abuse is generally not actionable). So, while the constitution requires the state to take “care” of prisoners, the care required is minimal. I’m suggesting that the “care” required by God may also be minimal in a similar way – at least there is nothing to rule it out.

But what about my other question? Why doesn’t God’s “care” principle apply in the case of my cancer patient scenario?

 

[LilyM]

Not analogous because the instruction to not eat anything for 3 days is very specific – no food for 72 hours.

So would a fruit smoothie count? I mean it has fruit in it but it is blended up until it’s liquid in form.

What about pumpkin soup? That’s blended up vegetable in liquid form.

 

[spencelo]

Once again, what purpose would mistreatment of animal serve other than one’s sadistic nature?

Again, suppose the torturer lost a bet. How do you rule out that scenario?

 

[spencelo]

So would a fruit smoothie count? I mean it has fruit in it but it is blended up until it’s liquid in form.

What about pumpkin soup? That’s blended up vegetable in liquid form.

I would ask the doctor for specifics – whether he’s talking about solid foods or all foods.

 

[LilyM]

You’re using “care” in a different sense, and it’s not clear that the passage has the sense you have in mind. Consider the constitutionally required care of prisoners: the standard is so pathetically low that it allows many forms mistreatment and abuse to occur (e.g., verbal abuse is generally not actionable). So, while the constitution requires the state to take “care” of prisoners, the care required is minimal. I’m suggesting that the “care” required by God may also be minimal in a similar way – at least there is nothing to rule it out.

But what about my other question? Why doesn’t God’s “care” principle apply in the case of my cancer patient scenario?

Again, all I can say is it is Christianity 101 - God’s care of His creatures is care in EXACTLY the sense I use, not the sense the Constitution uses. The word ‘minimal’ is never used in scripture. God’s care is expressed in metaphors like a husband and his wife, a mother and her baby and so on. Not a prisoner and his or her guard.

We are called to be as like God as we possibly can. We are not called merely to be like the framers of the Constitution or like prison guards looking after convicted criminals!

 

[LilyM]

I would ask the doctor for specifics – whether he’s talking about solid foods or all foods.

What if he’s left the room and not coming back and so you’re unable to ask? What if he just leaves written instructions and isn’t seeing you at all before the operation? What if you’re unconscious or unable to speak or write?