Referring to a pope before he was pope

[carefullytread]

(This might qualify under ‘Vatican Rules’, but if this is the wrong forum, moderators please move the thread).

How does one refer to a pope when speaking about things they did before they were pope, by their name at the time or by their later regnal name? For example, when citing something written by Benedict XVI while he was Cardinal Ratzinger, is it proper to refer to the author as “Cardinal Ratzinger” or as “Pope Benedict”?

 

[porthos11]

“Cardinal Ratzinger” or “then-Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI”

 

[FrDavid96]

(This might qualify under ‘Vatican Rules’, but if this is the wrong forum, moderators please move the thread).

How does one refer to a pope when speaking about things they did before they were pope, by their name at the time or by their later regnal name? For example, when citing something written by Benedict XVI while he was Cardinal Ratzinger, is it proper to refer to the author as “Cardinal Ratzinger” or as “Pope Benedict”?

Typically it would be “then-Cardinal” or “then-Archbishop” etc. whatever would apply to the particular time-period.

By the way, since you’re asking about grammar: “they” is plural, “he” is singular.

 

[FrDavid96]

“Cardinal Ratzinger” or “then-Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI”

How about “then-Cardinal Ratzinger, the future Pope Benedict XVI, currently Pope Emeritus Benedict.”

By the way, do we refer to him as “Pope Emeritus Benedict” since he is the very first pope emeritus to have the name Benedict? Or do we refer to him as “Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI?” because regardless of how many emeritus Benedicts we’ve had (or not had), the “emeritus” applies to his entire papal name? I wonder???

If some future pope should take the name Benedict, then retire, would he then become “Pope Emeritus Benedict II” or “Pope Emeritus Benedict XVII”?

 

[pianistclare]

I’m sure I’m not saying anything official, but I would think he’d keep his XVI designation.
I’ve never seen names and number go backwards.
But hey, what do I know

 

[carefullytread]

How about “then-Cardinal Ratzinger, the future Pope Benedict XVI, currently Pope Emeritus Benedict.”

Which makes me wonder, what happens when he dies? Does he go back to being Pope Benedict XVI? Would the sentence “I pray for the late Pope Emeritus Benedict’s soul” be correct or does it become “I pray for the late Pope Benedict’s soul”?

 

[pianistclare]

Which makes me wonder, what happens when he dies? Does he go back to being Pope Benedict XVI? Would the sentence “I pray for the late Pope Emeritus Benedict’s soul” be correct or does it become “I pray for the late Pope Benedict’s soul”?

Late Pope Benedict.
He’s no longer “Emeritus” That applies to a living person only.

 

[Wesrock]

By the way, since you’re asking about grammar: “they” is plural, “he” is singular.

Hi, Father. It’s become widely accepted to use “they” as a gender neutral singular pronoun. I should stress that this is something that has been in and out of fashion in English, and isn’t strictly a modern thing. It appeared in the fourteenth century and only went out of fashion around the nineteenth century before emerging into common use again. Of course, there’s no need to use a gender-neutral pronoun when referring bishops, cardinals, and popes.

 

[dshix]

By the way, since you’re asking about grammar: “they” is plural, “he” is singular.

I’m glad I’m not the only one bothered by this.

I know that it’s currently common English slang to use “they” as a gender neutral third person singular pronoun, but it isn’t official yet, nor do I find it to be an elegant solution.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Hi, Father. It’s become widely accepted to use “they” as a gender neutral singular pronoun.

Since the question is about how to refer to a pope before he was pope, I don’t think we need to be gender neutral. As far as I know, women don’t hold that position.

 

[Reuben_J]

(This might qualify under ‘Vatican Rules’, but if this is the wrong forum, moderators please move the thread).

How does one refer to a pope when speaking about things they did before they were pope, by their name at the time or by their later regnal name? For example, when citing something written by Benedict XVI while he was Cardinal Ratzinger, is it proper to refer to the author as “Cardinal Ratzinger” or as “Pope Benedict”?

Thank you for respecting the office of the Pope.

As for your question, like others had said, it should be ‘then Cardinal Ratzinger’ or whatever he was then.

 

[carefullytread]

Since the question is about how to refer to a pope before he was pope, I don’t think we need to be gender neutral. As far as I know, women don’t hold that position.

In response to all the ‘they’ pronoun angst in this thread, I rewrote the question several times and ended up mixing the singular su ‘a pope’ with a plural remainder of the first sentence. Notice that in the second sentence, I did use ‘he’ not ‘they’. I do know that popes are always male, but it’s an internet post. Editing errors happen. I think four replies pointing out my grammar mistake is enough!

 

[porthos11]

Late Pope Benedict.
He’s no longer “Emeritus” That applies to a living person only.

Also depends on the time frame one is writing about.

“The prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (the future Pope Benedict XVI)…”

“In 2007, Pope Benedict XVI issued Summorum pontificum…”

“The 2015 comments made by Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI…”

“Even as late as 2030, people still fondly remember the late Pope Benedict XVI for his wisdom and insight in his relatively short Pontificate in the early years of the century…”

“Today, in 2200, the Church is indebted to the quiet prayers and sacrifices the late Pope Emeritus offered in the sunset years of his life…”

 

[Luz_Maria]

,mm.,m.,m,m

 

[psalm90]

On the Vatican website, documents issued by Cdl. Joseph Ratzinger are listed that way with him as the author. If they do it, it must be OK. It clarifies totally whether the individual that wrote that essay as Pope or earlier.

I can’t express the context, but I’ve also seen a format like this “Card. Joseph Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict XVI).”

when you use “then” what is “then?” That’s more complexity.

There are a lot of things out there under the name of Fr. Robert Barron who is now a bishop. And, so, for a lot of other bishops. I am not expecting a lightning bolt or an anvil to drop on my head if I am not 1000% politically correct.

 

[Melissa]

On the Vatican website, documents issued by Cdl. Joseph Ratzinger are listed that way with him as the author. If they do it, it must be OK. It clarifies totally whether the individual that wrote that essay as Pope or earlier.

I can’t express the context, but I’ve also seen a format like this “Card. Joseph Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict XVI).”

when you use “then” what is “then?” That’s more complexity.

There are a lot of things out there under the name of Fr. Robert Barron who is now a bishop. And, so, for a lot of other bishops. I am not expecting a lightning bolt or an anvil to drop on my head if I am not 1000% politically correct.

I’ve always assumed that if one refers to “then-Cardinal Ratzinger” that the “then” refers to specifically the period in time in which he was a Cardinal (contrasting both with the period of time before he was a Cardinal and after the point at which he became Pope and later Pope Emeritus).

 

[FrDavid96]

On the Vatican website, documents issued by Cdl. Joseph Ratzinger are listed that way with him as the author. If they do it, it must be OK. It clarifies totally whether the individual that wrote that essay as Pope or earlier.

Not really. The Vatican website is notorious for outdated information (broken links all over the place, for example), and outright mistakes (the online version of the code of canon law is full of typing errors all over the place) so the fact that they have not gone through the online documents and edited them really says nothing at all.

I can’t express the context, but I’ve also seen a format like this “Card. Joseph Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict XVI).”

Sure, that’s an option.

when you use “then” what is “then?” That’s more complexity.

Not really complex. If he was a bishop when he wrote it, it’s then-bishop. If he was a Cardinal at the time, it’s then-Cardinal. The answer to “what is then?” is simply: the time the words were written or spoken or the time the action took place. It’s not complicated at all.

There are a lot of things out there under the name of Fr. Robert Barron who is now a bishop. And, so, for a lot of other bishops. I am not expecting a lightning bolt or an anvil to drop on my head if I am not 1000% politically correct.

Naturally, books that are already printed won’t just change themselves because the author’s title changes.

It’s not about being politically correct. That’s something entirely different. It’s about being accurate (which is often the exact opposite of politically correct).

It is only accurate and fair for a reader to know what office a person occupied at the time something was written. For example, something written by Father Joseph Ratzinger is to be viewed entirely differently from something written by (active) Pope Benedict XVI.