Reflecting on a few interesting answers

[Spock]

Hi everyone. The Enterprise is back for a short time. During the years of monitoring the boards a hypothetical question came up periodically. It was formed like this: “If you knew (had absolute, positive proof) that God does not exist, how would that change your behavior? Especially in your interpersonal relationships?”.

The majority of the answers was easy to understand: the posters said that their behavior to others would not change at all. They affirmed that they would be just as helpful and loving to others as they are now. Pretty normal reply, no mystery there. Most of them also said that they would not continue to go to church, since there would be no point.

However, there were a few people (very few indeed), whose answer was most surprising: they said that they would change their behavior completely. They said that they would engage in sex as much as they could, would engage in ABC, to be sure not to conceive, but be able to concentrate on the pleasure giving aspect of the act.

Moreover, a truly small percentage of the posters went even further. They said that they would go and kill and torture others. There would be no restriction on their behavior (except they would try to avoid getting caught).

Now that is amazing. I cannot fathom why these people felt like it. So the question is: “if you are one of these people, please explain your reasons”? If you are not one of these people, “what do you think their reason might have been”? Any ideas? (By the way, none of them indicated - by smilies or otherwise) - that they intended to pull our leg. They were dead serious in their answers.)

 

[DPMartin]

Hi everyone. The Enterprise is back for a short time. During the years of monitoring the boards a hypothetical question came up periodically. It was formed like this: “If you knew (had absolute, positive proof) that God does not exist, how would that change your behavior? Especially in your interpersonal relationships?”.

The majority of the answers was easy to understand: the posters said that their behavior to others would not change at all. They affirmed that they would be just as helpful and loving to others as they are now. Pretty normal reply, no mystery there. Most of them also said that they would not continue to go to church, since there would be no point.

However, there were a few people (very few indeed), whose answer was most surprising: they said that they would change their behavior completely. They said that they would engage in sex as much as they could, would engage in ABC, to be sure not to conceive, but be able to concentrate on the pleasure giving aspect of the act.

Moreover, a truly small percentage of the posters went even further. They said that they would go and kill and torture others. There would be no restriction on their behavior (except they would try to avoid getting caught).

Now that is amazing. I cannot fathom why these people felt like it. So the question is: “if you are one of these people, please explain your reasons”? If you are not one of these people, “what do you think their reason might have been”? Any ideas? (By the way, none of them indicated - by smilies or otherwise) - that they intended to pull our leg. They were dead serious in their answers.)

What that should have shown you is what is truly in peoples hearts, that without fear of God, or knowledge of God, or thought toward God they would seek out the fulfillment of what is in their own hearts. No great revelation there. Read the days of Noah and it is said already what is truly in the hearts of men. Therefore the fulfillment of what is in God’s Heart in Jesus Christ makes all the difference. It’s not brain science nor rocket surgery. Without the knowledge of God, mankind only knows his own ways.

 

[Philotheatoo]

I cannot say why anyone else answered the way they did, nor was I a part of the original test group. I do know that, unfortunately, there remains in me at certain times, a fleeting desire (small keyword ~ fleeting ~ thank God) to ‘get even’ or, ‘hurt back’ or, ‘claw ahead’ or, whatever the circumstance is at the time. It is those feelings which I have worked to dispel and continue to work to dispel, by imitating Christ. Furthermore, I believe it is God that keeps me from acting on those thoughts/desires. I can only offer, maybe it is those feelings/desires which could be acted on in the absence of God which your original testers are referring to? As well, although I have been happily married for 25 years, it is God and the sacrament of Marriage that continue to help me to dispel the fleeting feelings/desires to act outside of my vows.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Hi everyone. The Enterprise is back for a short time. During the years of monitoring the boards a hypothetical question came up periodically. It was formed like this: “If you knew (had absolute, positive proof) that God does not exist, how would that change your behavior? Especially in your interpersonal relationships?”.

The majority of the answers was easy to understand: the posters said that their behavior to others would not change at all. They affirmed that they would be just as helpful and loving to others as they are now. Pretty normal reply, no mystery there. Most of them also said that they would not continue to go to church, since there would be no point.

However, there were a few people (very few indeed), whose answer was most surprising: they said that they would change their behavior completely. They said that they would engage in sex as much as they could, would engage in ABC, to be sure not to conceive, but be able to concentrate on the pleasure giving aspect of the act.

Moreover, a truly small percentage of the posters went even further. They said that they would go and kill and torture others. There would be no restriction on their behavior (except they would try to avoid getting caught).

Now that is amazing. I cannot fathom why these people felt like it. So the question is: “if you are one of these people, please explain your reasons”? If you are not one of these people, “what do you think their reason might have been”? Any ideas? (By the way, none of them indicated - by smilies or otherwise) - that they intended to pull our leg. They were dead serious in their answers.)

My dear friend ,

No surprise to me. what their saying makes sense , and indeed most people are living as if there is no God , just like this. But a better question might be if there as also no devils or hell. They should add that to the equation. But the whole thing is completely stupid if you ask me anyway, if there is no God then nothing exists. But nothing cannot exist as then if nothing exists nothing has become something. And the something all other somethings are contingent on is the something we call God.

God bless and Love you

John

 

[Hecares]

I lived a very protectd life, so I would have said they were either pulling your leg, or were in a momentary fit of anger. However, recently I have met people in which evil, hatred, anger, suspicion and fear have become so ingrained that it overcomes all good things in them. It is possible that some of the people you surveyed were in that state. I think this state is already “hell” whether it exists in this life or the next.

Most people know intrinsically that helping others and doing what they perceive as good gives them a better life whether it ends at death or continues for all eternity.

I heard the statement long ago that if I believe there is a God and there isn’t, notheng really changes. No harm done. However if I believe there is no God and I am wrong, I could have a real problem.

 

[Spock]

First, I need to make a quick correction. Those threads I was talking about were not initiated by me. They were not really “tests” or “surveys”, just simple, everyday threads.

DPMartin said:
What that should have shown you is what is truly in peoples hearts, that without fear of God, or knowledge of God, or thought toward God they would seek out the fulfillment of what is in their own hearts. No great revelation there. Read the days of Noah and it is said already what is truly in the hearts of men. Therefore the fulfillment of what is in God’s Heart in Jesus Christ makes all the difference. It’s not brain science nor rocket surgery. Without the knowledge of God, mankind only knows his own ways.
I think you overlooked something. The overwhelming majority of the people said that they would not change their attitude toward others. Only a very small percentage wanted to do it. So the picture is not “dark”, at all. (By the way, I loved “brain science” and “rocket surgery”. It was hilarious.)

Philotheatoo said:
As well, although I have been happily married for 25 years, it is God and the sacrament of Marriage that continue to help me to dispel the fleeting feelings/desires to act outside of my vows.
I don’t think that “fleeting” desires are something to worry about. We are all exposed that. Do you really think that you would not be able to overcome those “temptations” if there would be no God to “oversee” you? That is a serious question, but, of course, do not reply if you don’t want to.

John Russel jr. said:
No surprise to me. what their saying makes sense , and indeed most people are living as if there is no God , just like this.
I am not sure I understand you. Do you think that it does make sense to switch to become a sociopath? Consider that most people would stay as they are, caring and compassionate others. Only a few would switch over to become a sociopath. And I keep wondering, since they all professed to be Catholics. How is it possible that there are Catholics, who would become murderers and torturers if they were not afraid of retribution from God?

Hecares said:
I lived a very protectd life, so I would have said they were either pulling your leg, or were in a momentary fit of anger. However, recently I have met people in which evil, hatred, anger, suspicion and fear have become so ingrained that it overcomes all good things in them. It is possible that some of the people you surveyed were in that state. I think this state is already “hell” whether it exists in this life or the next.
But these people were Catholics. And they said that they would practice all the “forbidden” types of sex, if they were not afraid of God. They said that they would like to go on a killing rampage. That is what boggles my mind.

 

[Philotheatoo]

My serious answer to that is, I don’t think I would have a desire to overcome evil urges because, in the absence of God I would be prey for Evil and, as such, would have no love or desire for good inside of me. I believe it is because I carry God within me that I am inherently good and have the capacity for love.

 

[Blinky]

In this God-less scenario, are there any laws, rules, police, governments, jails, prisons, etc.?

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

First, I need to make a quick correction. Those threads I was talking about were not initiated by me. They were not really “tests” or “surveys”, just simple, everyday threads.

John Russel jr. said:
No surprise to me. what their saying makes sense , and indeed most people are living as if there is no God , just like this.
I am not sure I understand you. Do you think that it does make sense to switch to become a sociopath? Consider that most people would stay as they are, caring and compassionate others. Only a few would switch over to become a sociopath. And I keep wondering, since they all professed to be Catholics. How is it possible that there are Catholics, who would become murderers and torturers if they were not afraid of retribution from God?

My dear friend ,

I think it makes no sense at all to believe or live as if there was no God , it is to believe and live as if there was no Love. God is Love , I’m not approving anything by a long shot. But if love does not exist there is just evil , so all people will be evil if no God. Everyone benefits from God and His grace , believers and non - believers , otherwise there would be no grace which is Love in the world. Take God out of the picture and you take Love out of the picture. Of course the hypothetical is ridiculous as God exists and there’s no use arguing whether He does in reality. It’s fallen minds that can’t understand anything hardly that can’t figure out that God exists in situations like this , and that God must exist. These are pretty simple basic questions all should know. One should really not even speculate on the question. But you asked and I answered dear friend. Hypothetically all would be pure evil if there was no God , but there is and has to be God.

God bless and Love you

John

 

[Spock]

My serious answer to that is, I don’t think I would have a desire to overcome evil urges because, in the absence of God I would be prey for Evil and, as such, would have no love or desire for good inside of me. I believe it is because I carry God within me that I am inherently good and have the capacity for love.

Thank you very much. Your reply is interesting. I never had any serious temptation since I fell in love with my current wife. Of course, I am not blind, and many times I see very pretty women, who would tempt my “hormones”, if the situation happened to arise. Just for the fun of it, I toyed with the thought of “what would happen, if…” and the result was: “no, I would not be interested in any one of them”. And the reason: “I would not want my wife to cheat on me, therefore I would not want to cheat on her”. The good, old golden rule would be enough to resist the opportunity.

In this God-less scenario, are there any laws, rules, police, governments, jails, prisons, etc.?

Yes, of course. Just like we have them now. Those few people who had those astonishing answers all said that they would try not to be caught by the legal authorities. Of course this does not apply to the hypothetical sexual escapades they all seemed to yearn for. Those are not illegal.

 

[Spock]

I think it makes no sense at all to believe or live as if there was no God , it is to believe and live as if there was no Love. God is Love , I’m not approving anything by a long shot. But if love does not exist there is just evil , so all people will be evil if no God. Everyone benefits from God and His grace , believers and non - believers , otherwise there would be no grace which is Love in the world. Take God out of the picture and you take Love out of the picture.

Well, I don’t think that there is a chance we can agree. Which is, of course, just fine. In my eyes love is a very nice emotion, coming from our chemistry. But obviously you think otherwise. Thank you for your thoughts.

 

[halleone]

That is a fine saying, Hecares, and I am going to write it down. It pretty much sums up my thoughts. And for myself, I would not change how I conduct my life/business. I find the more I give, the more I get back, twofold at the least.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Well, I don’t think that there is a chance we can agree. Which is, of course, just fine. In my eyes love is a very nice emotion, coming from our chemistry. But obviously you think otherwise. Thank you for your thoughts.

My dear friend ,

Don’t agree hey. Ok , if you say. But Love is God and not just an emotion. When you experience Love you get a little taste of God. Love is all that is good , and evil is the opposite of Love. Love in man is the grace of God which is God which is Love working in and through man. If you don’t want to know Gods Love then so be it. It’s up to you dear friend.

God bless

John

 

[Hecares]

Spock,

Being a member of the Catholic Church doesn’t mean you will be moral anymore than belonging to a dancing class means you will be a ballerina. All sorts of people claim to be Catholic without conforming to the teachings of the Catholic Church. I am happy that so many people claimed they wouldn’t change the way they act. They are tthe people who have truly changed their hearts according to the teachings of the Church they claim as theirs

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Russell Jr
I think it makes no sense at all to believe or live as if there was no God , it is to believe and live as if there was no Love. God is Love , I’m not approving anything by a long shot. But if love does not exist there is just evil , so all people will be evil if no God. Everyone benefits from God and His grace , believers and non - believers , otherwise there would be no grace which is Love in the world. Take God out of the picture and you take Love out of the picture.

Comment by Spock: Well, I don’t think that there is a chance we can agree. Which is, of course, just fine. In my eyes love is a very nice emotion, coming from our chemistry. But obviously you think otherwise. Thank you for your thoughts. as theirs

I have to agree with John, that God is love. Love is not an emotion or chemistry. It is something we can accept or reject, an act of will. To love God means to obey His law. That’s a lot harder to do than to feel an emotion caused by a chemical reaction. My grandmother told me that the kind of “love” you speak of, Spock, is lust, not love. A kinder, gentler word might be “attraction.”

 

[halleone]

I heard the statement long ago that if I believe there is a God and there isn’t, notheng really changes. No harm done. However if I believe there is no God and I am wrong, I could have a real problem.

Hecares, I like the statement you quoted, it’s one worth remembering. For my unsolicited $0.02 , I wouldn’t change how I live or treat people. I am finding that the more I give, the better I feel - and it does seem to be returned in one way or another, sometimes twofold (or more)!

 

[dostoyevskyfan]

But these people were Catholics. And they said that they would practice all the “forbidden” types of sex, if they were not afraid of God. They said that they would like to go on a killing rampage. That is what boggles my mind.

“If there is no God, then all things are permissible.”

Well…Dostoevsky was close, but it should be:

“…then all things are permissible so long as you have a good lawyer, a lot of money, and rarely get caught.”

I’d rather not share what I’d be doing right now if there were no God, but it involves a yacht, adult entertainment, and illicit substances.

I suppose you asked this question because you are genuinely curious, and you seek insight into the human condition. I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and not assume you’re trolling and getting one giant laugh out of this or trying to prove something about the pragmatic value of belief.

If the former is true, then I would like to recommend these 2 great works of literature to you:

The Brothers Karamazov
amazon.com/Brothers-Karamazov-Fyodor-Dostoevsky/dp/0374528373
at 6 dollars thats a steal!!

and

Heart of Darkness
amazon.com/Heart-Darkness-Joseph-Conrad/dp/1936594145/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1307738862&sr=1-1

 

[Spock]

Being a member of the Catholic Church doesn’t mean you will be moral anymore than belonging to a dancing class means you will be a ballerina. All sorts of people claim to be Catholic without conforming to the teachings of the Catholic Church. I am happy that so many people claimed they wouldn’t change the way they act. They are tthe people who have truly changed their hearts according to the teachings of the Church they claim as theirs.

Don’t forget that no atheist would change if they really “knew” that there is no God. After all they live as if there is no God, and they are just as varied as all the other people: some nice, some bad, some in between. Those people who voted otherwise are just as Catholic as anyone else. I heard many times: once baptized a Catholic, always a Catholic. Mind you: those people do not act differently from you. They just would act differently if they did not have to fear a retribution from God.

I have to agree with John, that God is love. Love is not an emotion or chemistry. It is something we can accept or reject, an act of will. To love God means to obey His law. That’s a lot harder to do than to feel an emotion caused by a chemical reaction. My grandmother told me that the kind of “love” you speak of, Spock, is lust, not love. A kinder, gentler word might be “attraction.”

Your grandmother is wrong. The emotion one feels toward a spouse or toward a friend or toward one’s children is love. (There is eros, filia, storge and agape - in ancient Greek. There is only “love” in modern English.) There is no “lust” involved there. And none of them is an “act of will”. We are “attracted” (to use your word) to these people - and attraction is not subject to volitional decisions.

But I suggest we drop this line. I am not interested in discussing God or love in this thread. I am only interested in finding out (if we can find out) how is it possible that those people only keep the Catholic commandments out of fear. I thought that people like to be Catholics, and they have no problem keeping the “rules” prescribed and proscribed by the Church. I did not think (so far) that people feel apprehensive about them, and they only keep them because they are scared of God’s wrath.

Of course, maybe I am naive. When I think of the millions of Catholics, who practise artificial birth control or who support abortions (and they do believe that God exists) then it should not come as a surprise that many people would change their tune, if they found out that there is no God, there is no hell, there is no afterlife and no punishment. Still interesting, however, that some would feel free to commit murders and tortures. According to my experiences there are extremely few people who are “inclined” to cause deliberate harm to others - just for the fun of it.

 

[Spock]

“If there is no God, then all things are permissible.”

Well…Dostoevsky was close, but it should be:

“…then all things are permissible so long as you have a good lawyer, a lot of money, and rarely get caught.”

Dostoyevski was wrong - he was a great writer, but not a great philosopher. If you look at the atheists as a group, you will find no difference in their behavior toward other humans than you would experience if you look at Catholics, or Hindus, or anyone else. Some will be very kind, helpful and caring - all the time. Some will be nasty, cruel and brutal - all the time. Most will be in-between, mostly nice, sometimes not so nice, sometimes even vindictive, just human. And those atheists behave as if there were no God. So Dostoyevski was dead wrong.

No, not all things are permissible or desirable in a Godless universe. Most people would understand and realize that a selfish life is counterproductive, cooperation with others is much better. Not everyone, of course. There are some (very few) people who are psychopaths and sociopaths, who would steamroll over everyone else to pursue their own selfish goals. But the concept you quoted sounds like if you thought that most people would be like that if there would be no God to keep them from murders and tortures. I am much more optimistic than you are. I am sure that most people would be just as they are now. Funny that only believers would behave differently, don’t you think so?

I’d rather not share what I’d be doing right now if there were no God, but it involves a yacht, adult entertainment, and illicit substances.

What you say is more than enough. Even without the details it seems to me that there are some pleasures you find attractive, and which you would like to practice if you did not have to fear repercussions. It would be interesting to explore them, but if you would not want to go into details, then this is it. Far be it from me to pry into your personal affairs. Too bad, though.

(By the way, of course I am familiar with the novel of Dostoyevski. Not the other one, though. But that is a not the point of this discussion.)

 

[warpspeedpetey]

…
Moreover, a truly small percentage of the posters went even further. They said that they would go and kill and torture others. There would be no restriction on their behavior (except they would try to avoid getting caught).

Now that is amazing. I cannot fathom why these people felt like it. So the question is: “if you are one of these people, please explain your reasons”?..

If there were no G-d it would not be torture, rape, murder or robbery. The meaningless, purposeless pile of atoms you identify as “I” is merely rearranging other piles of atoms into configurations of the greatest utility to me. Thats pretty much the reason atheist regimes killed more than a hundred million peasants in the last century. Life gets real cheap when people propose to live as if there is no G-d.

 

[Luke_K]

I think they answered that way because Catholicism/Christianity can create a false dichotomy in one’s mind. Our religion is so focused on not indulging in base desires that it’s easy to fall into the mindset that without our religion the obvious choice should be unbridled hedonism!

Another possibility is that one’s relationship with God becomes such a part of their life that becoming an atheist is like breaking up with a girlfriend/boyfriend. It’s like a teenager who breaks up with their first love and feels like there’s no meaning in life anymore. When it becomes such a significant part of your life, it leaves a big hole behind when its gone.