reflections from a former altar girl

[Annabelle_Marie]

Interesting. In my Archdiocese, the Laity have no parts in the Chrism Mass except for the Archdiocesan Choir.

Everything is done by the Archbishop, Priests, Deacons, and Seminarians. All of the Altar Servers are either Priests or Seminarians and the MC is the priest who is the Head of Divine Worship.

I think you misunderstood me…or I didn’t communicate it well. I attended the Chrism Mass…but at my home parish…during regular Sunday Mass…I do similiar things that the MC did at the Chrism Mass.

 

[phil19034]

I think you misunderstood me…or I didn’t communicate it well. I attended the Chrism Mass…but at my home parish…during regular Sunday Mass…I do similiar things that the MC did at the Chrism Mass.

Ahhhhhhhh… Thanks! Question, do you wear a Alb or Choir Robe, or do you just wear nice “secular” clothes?

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Ahhhhhhhh… Thanks! Question, do you wear a Alb or Choir Robe, or do you just wear nice “secular” clothes?

Nice secular clothes…something to blend to the background.

 

[otjm]

Not necessarily. Nuns/sisters don’t perform sacrifices at the altar. Priests do.

You seem to have missed the point. The obvious correlation was serving at the altar and finding a vocation; both priests and nuns/sisters have a vocation - the fact that they are different vocations is irrelevant to the point being made. Both are vocations devoting their lives to the service of God; the service may be different, but the point being made was that girls serving at the altar may be relevant to their later life choices.

The preparatory nature of altar serving isn’t just about making people more pious. It’s specifically geared towards preparing souls for making sacrifices at the altar.

Yes and no. Neither you nor I have statistics; but I would lay odds that not one boy in a thousand who served as an altar boy was ordained; and the odds are likely much higher. Give or take some, there were likely 17,000 parishes in the 1950’s (according to CARA, there were 17,637 in 1965, and increasing); in 1965 there 994 ordinations. If we were to average 10altar boys per parish, that is 170,000 altar boys and there were 994 ordinations? It may be your opinion that the purpose/primary purpose/sole purpose/at least one of the purposes of being an altar boy was to get boys headed off to the priesthood, it would appear that it was not an outstanding result.

It’s not at all coincidental that when female altar servers were introduced, radical feminists increased their cries dramatically for the ordination of women priests.
Not that female altar servers desired this; it just sent a message that if women could be altar servers when the role was traditionally held by men and had a clear connection with the priesthood, women could eventually become priests as well.

That is playing rather close to a post hoc ergo propter hoc argument. Radical feminism did not spring out of whole cloth.

And by the way, the 1965 number of ordinations means that they had 4 years of theology (so they would have started theology in the fall of 1961); college in the fall of 1957, and if they went to a high school seminary, starting in 1953. If you want to challenge the 17,000 parish figures, fine - reduce it to 16,000 parishes with 10 altar boys. That is still 160,000 altar boys. And just short of 1,000 ordinations. 1 out of 160.

 

[Brendan]

You seem to have missed the point. The obvious correlation was serving at the altar and finding a vocation; both priests and nuns/sisters have a vocation - the fact that they are different vocations is irrelevant to the point being made. Both are vocations devoting their lives to the service of God; the service may be different, but the point being made was that girls serving at the altar may be relevant to their later life choices…

But the experience should be relative to the vocation.

In altar service, the experience, the activity, is relative to the celebration of the Mass. Nuns do not do that.

In altar service, the boy is exposed to the life of the priest in the Sacrifice of the Mass. The boy with the vocation sees in the priest what he himself can become.

A woman called to religious life cannot, by definition, find fulfillment in such a role.

The lives are women religious fall into three traditional categories.

1. Contemplative
2. Service to the poor and sick
3. Teaching.

Therefore, the experience of girls should fall into one of those categories. For that is where a woman with a vocation will find Christ. The girl should be exposed to Adoration o f the Blessed Sacrament, or perhaps service at a soup kitchen or nursing home. Or as a teaching assistant at Religious Ed.

Since a women called to religious life will, by definition, find fulfillment in one of those roles, girls should be especially called to service in this way, so that the girl who DOES find fulfillment can be encourage to pursue her vocation.

 

[otjm]

But the experience should be relative to the vocation.

In altar service, the experience, the activity, is relative to the celebration of the Mass. Nuns do not do that.

In altar service, the boy is exposed to the life of the priest in the Sacrifice of the Mass. The boy with the vocation sees in the priest what he himself can become.

A woman called to religious life cannot, by definition, find fulfillment in such a role.

The lives are women religious fall into three traditional categories.

1. Contemplative
2. Service to the poor and sick
3. Teaching.

Therefore, the experience of girls should fall into one of those categories. For that is where a woman with a vocation will find Christ. The girl should be exposed to Adoration o f the Blessed Sacrament, or perhaps service at a soup kitchen or nursing home. Or as a teaching assistant at Religious Ed.

Since a women called to religious life will, by definition, find fulfillment in one of those roles, girls should be especially called to service in this way, so that the girl who DOES find fulfillment can be encourage to pursue her vocation.

Having heard from more than one woman who has entered the professed life, that their experience as an altar girl impacted their decision for the professed celibate life, their reality is contrary to your speculation.

What is it about the Mass, the Eucharist, and serving Christ that does not draw people to seek to follow and serve Him in the capacity appropriate to them? Are we so afraid to allow Christ to work a He sees fit?

 

[ProVobis]

In altar service, the boy is exposed to the life of the priest in the Sacrifice of the Mass. The boy with the vocation sees in the priest what he himself can become.

In my experience, the majority of altar servers we had were at least open to the possibility of becoming priests. There were none that I know of who said that serving was the last step in their vocation. Of course that was grade school. They might have changed their minds past the 8th grade, except for those who went immediately to preparatory seminary.

 

[Brendan]

Having heard from more than one woman who has entered the professed life, that their experience as an altar girl impacted their decision for the professed celibate life, their reality is contrary to your speculation.

I would have to say that the vast majority of women religious throughout history found their vocation without serving at the altar. The opposite is true for priests.

What is it about the Mass, the Eucharist, and serving Christ that does not draw people to seek to follow and serve Him in the capacity appropriate to them? Are we so afraid to allow Christ to work a He sees fit?

All women religious participate in the Mass, the Eucharist and in serving Christ. None of that requires altar service.

 

[pianistclare]

Having heard from more than one woman who has entered the professed life, that their experience as an altar girl impacted their decision for the professed celibate life, their reality is contrary to your speculation.

What is it about the Mass, the Eucharist, and serving Christ that does not draw people to seek to follow and serve Him in the capacity appropriate to them? Are we so afraid to allow Christ to work a He sees fit?

Thank for this^^^^
peace to you.

 

[salvemater]

Having heard from more than one woman who has entered the professed life, that their experience as an altar girl impacted their decision for the professed celibate life, their reality is contrary to your speculation.

What is it about the Mass, the Eucharist, and serving Christ that does not draw people to seek to follow and serve Him in the capacity appropriate to them? Are we so afraid to allow Christ to work a He sees fit?

It’s not a personal opinion or a speculation; it’s an understanding of the liturgy that is rooted in millennia of Catholic Tradition.
People who make such arguments about the role of altar serving aren’t just coming to those conclusions on their own, basing it on what they personally feel is prudent. They’re basing in on what the Church has always traditionally maintained, and the Church is not one to intentionally shun Tradition.

 

[CB_Catholic]

It’s not a personal opinion or a speculation; it’s an understanding of the liturgy that is rooted in millennia of Catholic Tradition.
People who make such arguments about the role of altar serving aren’t just coming to those conclusions on their own, basing it on what they personally feel is prudent. They’re basing in on what the Church has always traditionally maintained, and the Church is not one to intentionally shun Tradition.

I disagree. This is tradition, not Tradition. Most people who object do so because the “tradition” has changed, and they personally don’t like it. People should not deny that fact.

Well the tradition has changed, the Church (who is the authority here) has approved female altar servers. We go from here. The Holy Spirit is guiding the process.

 

[ProVobis]

This is tradition, not Tradition.

But aren’t St. Paul’s epistles part of the Deposit of Faith and therefore part of the very Tradition that you imply we uphold? Or perhaps our definition of “Tradition” is not the same.

 

[otjm]

It’s not a personal opinion or a speculation; it’s an understanding of the liturgy that is rooted in millennia of Catholic Tradition.
People who make such arguments about the role of altar serving aren’t just coming to those conclusions on their own, basing it on what they personally feel is prudent. They’re basing in on what the Church has always traditionally maintained, and the Church is not one to intentionally shun Tradition.

In case you didn’t notice, a new tradition was started some time back.

As far as Tradition, as opposed to tradition, it doesn’t go back to the Apostles, or anywhere near there. Yes, it is a long standing tradition; and a new one has started. It could be stopped at any time, but the current pontiff is not likely as a candidate, so for the next 10, 15 or 20 years, we will continue to see altar girls.

And likely, there will be a few who may consider becoming a sister or a nun.

And as to the comments that boys are no longer seeing the potential for priesthood, I would submit that is far more a specific issue to the specific priest whom they serve than it is whether or not they serve with a girl or two. There is no necessity whatsoever to eliminate girls in order to encourage boys to consider the priesthood. That is pure poppycock.

Boys are still considering it, and are still being ordained some 15 to 25 years later, comments to the contrary notwithstanding.

For that matter, boys who never served are being ordained.

 

[otjm]

It’s not a personal opinion or a speculation; it’s an understanding of the liturgy that is rooted in millennia of Catholic Tradition.
People who make such arguments about the role of altar serving aren’t just coming to those conclusions on their own, basing it on what they personally feel is prudent. They’re basing in on what the Church has always traditionally maintained, and the Church is not one to intentionally shun Tradition.

You are going to need to do a bit more research, and actually quote it. It is not Tradition as it does not go back to the time of the apostles;; it is a tradition; granted of centuries, but not going back to the early Church.

And as to not intentionally shunning tradition, I presume you have actually heard of St Stephen - one of the first martyrs of the Church, and a deacon?

Now that is Tradition - having permanent deacons. And as I recollect, the Church most certainly did shun Tradition, as they moved to transitional deacons only for centuries; it was only within my lifetime that permanent deacons were re-instituted.

So how is that for shunning Tradition?

 

[ProVobis]

Most people who object do so because the “tradition” has changed, and they personally don’t like it.

Perhaps. But to be fair, there will also be those on the other side who don’t like when the priest decides to use male servers only when the church allows female servers. Remember that what can be changed can also be undone. Mutatio gratia mutationis (change for the sake of change) works both ways.

 

[CB_Catholic]

But aren’t St. Paul’s epistles part of the Deposit of Faith and therefore part of the very Tradition that you imply we uphold? Or perhaps our definition of “Tradition” is not the same.

Where, in St. Paul’s Epistles, does it discuss female altar servers?

And one must be careful when interpreting any biblical writings that they are interpreted according to the mind of the Church. If the Church is allowing female altar servers, then it must not be part of Sacred Tradition for only males to be altar servers, or it could not have been changed.

Sacred Tradition cannot be changed. Just because something is done for a hundred or a thousand years does not make it Tradition (with a capital “T”–which is Sacred Tradition). And something that is only tradition does not change into Tradition, which is from God.

Too many people are not considering the fact that the Holy Spirit is still in charge here. He guides the Church as he sees fit, even when we don’t like it. He has a reason for allowing things and we in no way can comprehend the totality of what He is doing. It is part of Catholic Tradition to acknowledge the role of the Holy Spirit. Often things are not obvious to us, and sometimes things are a course correction. I believe in trusting the Church in her decisions.

 

[CB_Catholic]

Perhaps. But to be fair, there will also be those on the other side who don’t like when the priest decides to use male servers only when the church allows female servers. Remember that what can be changed can also be undone. Mutatio gratia mutationis (change for the sake of change) works both ways.

Yes, but what I am saying is that one needs to honest enough to call it what it is, which takes some self-examination. It is the same either way. One’s motives need to be examined, and God is not fooled.

 

[ProVobis]

Too many people are not considering the fact that the Holy Spirit is still in charge here.

It’s okay to use this argument. It is to be noted, though, that the Protestants also believe in the Holy Spirit Who guides them as well.

 

[ProVobis]

And one must be careful when interpreting any biblical writings that they are interpreted according to the mind of the Church.

Of course. I take it the readings within the Mass have already been interpreted to the mind of the Church. And I will be the first to admit some of it has been translated awkwardly or with bias. However, the part about women being silent in church, etc., etc. INTER ALIA has not been cut out AFAIK. In fact, it took a woman companion of mine to point that out to me, to her dismay as she lives by scripture. Say what you want about the circumstances and intentions and audiences surrounding St. Paul’s journeys but it is what it is.

Note, however, I’m not saying it can’t be done. But if we are to uphold Tradition as we say we are, then perhaps we should study exactly what Tradition is.

 

[Brendan]

Now that is Tradition - having permanent deacons. And as I recollect, the Church most certainly did shun Tradition, as they moved to transitional deacons only for centuries; it was only within my lifetime that permanent deacons were re-instituted.

So how is that for shunning Tradition?

FYI, there was never a point in the history of the Church where we did not have permanent Deacons. They were just rare

St. Francis of Assisi is a great example. He was a permanent Deacon.