Reflections on Mormons and original sin

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I am not convinced the Mormon understanding of original sin is that much different than the Catholic understanding. Mormons essentially have the same understanding of original sin that the Eastern Orthodox have. Eastern Orthodox don’t believe that we inherit guilt because of Adam’s transgression either. Mormons believe Christ’s atonement negates the punishment due everyone because of Adam’s transgression, but does not negate the results of Adam’s transgression, death and sin. Because of that Mormons would say we can only be punished for our own sins and not for Adam’s sin. In some ways that actually seems more just than the Augustinian model which the Western Church followed. Mormons would agree that all those who have obtained the age of accountability have sinned just as Catholics believe. It is interesting to me that Mormons and Catholics both believe that we are only culpable for our personal sins after reaching the age of accountability which is approximately the same age in both camps.

I guess the question boils down to an argument over the necessity of infant baptism. The Eastern Orthodox baptize infants even though they have similar views on original sin as the Mormons do. Perhaps we Catholics should emphasize the grace which comes through baptism more than simply the covering of Adam’s transgression. This grace opens the gate to the sacraments of confirmation, the Eucharist and reconciliation all of which together allow us to gain forgiveness for our personal sins. It seems sinful to me to deny that grace to a newborn baby.

I think the Catechism of the Catholic Church, 405, lends weight to that belief: “Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence”. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle."

Baptism opens people to the life of grace which was wounded by Adam’s sin. It erases original sin, but not the results of nature. I guess Mormons would say that Christ’s atonement erased original sin rather than attributing it to any act of ours, but would agree that “the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.” The argument really boils down to an argument over just how far Christ’s atonement extends. Mormons would say Christ’s atonement extends to all mankind – the Mormons seem to put more stock in Paul’s statement that “… as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.”

Did Christ’s atonement extend to aborted babies, unbaptized babies and young children, all who are without personal sin? That’s the question at issue here.
 
Interesting post. I do not know enough Mormon theology to compair, but you seem to be on to something.

The status of Aborted babies is unknown. On the one hand, as they had not been born, they were not born with anything. On the other hand, just the act of being human makes you part of a fallen race. Personally, I think that they are all in heaven.

Those who die as unbaptised children are left to the mercy of God. If they are saved, it is because of the Death and Ressurection of Christ that they are. I do not think that a kind and merciful God would send them to hell because of their parent’s inaction, even if they chose not to baptise them knowing full well of the dangers. The parents, on the other hand…
 
Interesting post. I do not know enough Mormon theology to compair, but you seem to be on to something.

The status of Aborted babies is unknown. On the one hand, as they had not been born, they were not born with anything. On the other hand, just the act of being human makes you part of a fallen race. Personally, I think that they are all in heaven.

Those who die as unbaptised children are left to the mercy of God. If they are saved, it is because of the Death and Ressurection of Christ that they are. I do not think that a kind and merciful God would send them to hell because of their parent’s inaction, even if they chose not to baptise them knowing full well of the dangers. The parents, on the other hand…
That would be my take. The children who don’t get baptized can be accounted for through Christ’s atonement. The parents have to answer for not allowing their newborn children to enter God’s kingdom through baptism which is the normal way of salvation. It doesn’t make sense to me anyway that a child would be condemned for the sin of its parents. It also doesn’t make sense to me that a parent would deprive a child of the grace which infant baptism accomplishes.
 
That would be my take. The children who don’t get baptized can be accounted for through Christ’s atonement. The parents have to answer for not allowing their newborn children to enter God’s kingdom through baptism which is the normal way of salvation. It doesn’t make sense to me anyway that a child would be condemned for the sin of its parents. It also doesn’t make sense to me that a parent would deprive a child of the grace which infant baptism accomplishes.
I agree.

To me, it is only logical that Jesus intended to have infant baptism. If baptism joins us to Christ, then why wait to be joined?
 
I agree.

To me, it is only logical that Jesus intended to have infant baptism. If baptism joins us to Christ, then why wait to be joined?
Mormons view the sacraments as “covenant-making” actions. By participating in baptism, the eucharist, etc., we make “covenants” with God. We promise ourselves to God, and He promises eternal life. Thus, it makes no sense for us to baptize children that are not able to know what they are doing.

My impression is that Catholics view sacraments in a more “magical” sense. I don’t mean that in a derogatory way–I just mean that the ritual actions “do something” to the participants, independent of their frame of mind.

It would be interesting to see if one can track any change in that sort of attitude in the early Christian documents.
 
Mormons view the sacraments as “covenant-making” actions. By participating in baptism, the eucharist, etc., we make “covenants” with God. We promise ourselves to God, and He promises eternal life. Thus, it makes no sense for us to baptize children that are not able to know what they are doing.

My impression is that Catholics view sacraments in a more “magical” sense. I don’t mean that in a derogatory way–I just mean that the ritual actions “do something” to the participants, independent of their frame of mind.

It would be interesting to see if one can track any change in that sort of attitude in the early Christian documents.
You will probably find both in your search. Catholics see them as both something that changes us on the inside and as a sign of our covenant with God
 
Mormons view the sacraments as “covenant-making” actions. By participating in baptism, the eucharist, etc., we make “covenants” with God. We promise ourselves to God, and He promises eternal life. Thus, it makes no sense for us to baptize children that are not able to know what they are doing.

My impression is that Catholics view sacraments in a more “magical” sense. I don’t mean that in a derogatory way–I just mean that the ritual actions “do something” to the participants, independent of their frame of mind.

It would be interesting to see if one can track any change in that sort of attitude in the early Christian documents.
i disagree with you regarding mormon “sacraments”. priesthood ordinations, confirmations and anointing the sick are viewed in mormon doctrine as “doing something” to the recipient. the temple endowment goes even further down this path and the sealing ordinance would be the ultimate example. even baptism in mormonism is seen as literally “washing away” sins. i think only the mormon sacrament really fits your description. (the symbolic bread and water that mormons partake of instead of the eucharist)

i would also challenge your assertion about baptism being ineffectual for children too young to know what they are doing. mormons believe that blessing the babies is effectual and place their faith in anointing the sick even if/when they are infants or incapacitated. it is somewhat debatable just how able an 8 year old is to “know what they are doing” regarding sacraments as well. (admittedly they DO exercise some level of free will at that age) i would look to the Old testament practice of circumcision as an example of a covenant with God that was performed on 8 day old male infants. the NT seems to indicate that baptism replaces this as the covenant between God and his people. I think there is then solid foundation for the practice of infant baptism.
 
i disagree with you regarding mormon “sacraments”. priesthood ordinations, confirmations and anointing the sick are viewed in mormon doctrine as “doing something” to the recipient. the temple endowment goes even further down this path and the sealing ordinance would be the ultimate example. even baptism in mormonism is seen as literally “washing away” sins. i think only the mormon sacrament really fits your description. (the symbolic bread and water that mormons partake of instead of the eucharist)

i would also challenge your assertion about baptism being ineffectual for children too young to know what they are doing. mormons believe that blessing the babies is effectual and place their faith in anointing the sick even if/when they are infants or incapacitated. it is somewhat debatable just how able an 8 year old is to “know what they are doing” regarding sacraments as well. (admittedly they DO exercise some level of free will at that age) i would look to the Old testament practice of circumcision as an example of a covenant with God that was performed on 8 day old male infants. the NT seems to indicate that baptism replaces this as the covenant between God and his people. I think there is then solid foundation for the practice of infant baptism.
Good point, maj. The Mormon viewpoint is more complex than I was making it out to be, I guess.
 
Mormons view the sacraments as “covenant-making” actions. By participating in baptism, the eucharist, etc., we make “covenants” with God. We promise ourselves to God, and He promises eternal life. Thus, it makes no sense for us to baptize children that are not able to know what they are doing.

My impression is that Catholics view sacraments in a more “magical” sense. I don’t mean that in a derogatory way–I just mean that the ritual actions “do something” to the participants, independent of their frame of mind.

It would be interesting to see if one can track any change in that sort of attitude in the early Christian documents.
I really doubt my children understood what they were doing when they were baptized Mormon at 8 years old. I’m sure it was significant to them, but I doubt they fully understood.
 
I really doubt my children understood what they were doing when they were baptized Mormon at 8 years old. I’m sure it was significant to them, but I doubt they fully understood.
I just read a couple weeks ago a National Science Foundation news release about some work done on how children’s beliefs influence their actions. It turned out that small children very often say they believe one thing, but do another. It wasn’t until right about age 8 that kids’ beliefs start to really influence their actions strongly.

So maybe you are right that 8-year-old kids don’t understand the full implications of baptism, but at least they are able to make a commitment based on their beliefs, and try to stick to it.
 
I just read a couple weeks ago a National Science Foundation news release about some work done on how children’s beliefs influence their actions. It turned out that small children very often say they believe one thing, but do another. It wasn’t until right about age 8 that kids’ beliefs start to really influence their actions strongly.

So maybe you are right that 8-year-old kids don’t understand the full implications of baptism, but at least they are able to make a commitment based on their beliefs, and try to stick to it.
i agree but we still have the biblical example of cicumcision. there is no doubt that it was a covenant with God and that it was performed on infants.
 
I am not convinced the Mormon understanding of original sin is that much different than the Catholic understanding. Mormons essentially have the same understanding of original sin that the Eastern Orthodox have. Eastern Orthodox don’t believe that we inherit guilt because of Adam’s transgression either.
Hi Bart, us Roman Catholics don’t have a belief in original guilt either. 🙂
 
Hi Bart, us Roman Catholics don’t have a belief in original guilt either. 🙂
I see what you mean, but the Catholic Church does teach that normally those who aren’t baptized are punished or at least deprived of the beatific vision. Of course God is able to act outside of the normal means of salvation (the sacraments of the Church) to save individuals. That’s where God can act to save aborted babies, newborns and little children who have no personal sin and haven’t had the opportunity to choose to be baptized. Original sin places us in a state of sin at birth (what Mormons would call “the natural man”) rather than claiming we have actually committed sin. The Mormons would claim Jesus overcame the punishment due our nature on the cross while Catholics would claim baptism is necessary to overcome the state of original sin. Mormons would see baptism as only necessary to wash away our personal sin.
 
Mormons would see baptism as only necessary to wash away our personal sin.
That makes it operate forward, since 8yr olds haven’t committed sins for which they are accountable. So being against infant baptism seems contradictory at least on this aspect of baptism
 
That makes it operate forward, since 8yr olds haven’t committed sins for which they are accountable. So being against infant baptism seems contradictory at least on this aspect of baptism
For us, it is a covenant, and one renews that covenant every week with the eucharist. (We just call it “the sacrament”.)
 
For us, it is a covenant, and one renews that covenant every week with the eucharist. (We just call it “the sacrament”.)
i think there is a fundamental difference between the eucharist and mormon “sacrament”. the mormon version is more like the protestat “lord’s supper”. it is considered a renewal of one’s baptismal covenant and thus is more akin to the use of holy water in a catholic mass than the sacrament of Eucharist in the mass. we see a VERY different meaning in that.
 
i think there is a fundamental difference between the eucharist and mormon “sacrament”. the mormon version is more like the protestat “lord’s supper”. it is considered a renewal of one’s baptismal covenant and thus is more akin to the use of holy water in a catholic mass than the sacrament of Eucharist in the mass. we see a VERY different meaning in that.
That’s fine. I just used the word “eucharist” because Catholics usually talk about “sacraments,” rather than “the sacrament.” I consider the Catholic usage to be more correct, anyway.
 
Thank you for making me dig out my Ott* and look at the subject of Original Sin.

Here’s my summary:

The Original Sin resulted in the loss of sanctifying grace, which means the loss of the Beatific Vision (which happens after death). This is restored by Baptism, and after that, by the other Sacraments.

It also resulted in the loss of the wholeness God intended us to have - the loss of immortality, of physical integrity, and innocence about sin. Thus we have death, suffering, and concupiscence. The Sacraments do not affect this, except for giving us graces to help us resist sin.

Original Sin did not lose us the ability to perform good moral actions.

What we do with Sanctifying Grace after receiving the Sacraments is up to us. We can have more or less of it, depending on our actions. Mortal sin destroys it, but Reconciliation restores it.

Unbaptized babies who die are deprived of the Beatific Vision, but (of course) there is no punishment for sin. The Beatific Vision is spiritual, since our human eyeballs cannot see it either before or after the resurrection of our bodies. It is the ability to see our Triune God as He is. Currently we see Him through things - creation, beauty, thunderstorms, love, etc. - and through faith.

That lack of the Beatific Vision is **all **we know about what happens to the unbaptized innocents who die. So we must use our faith to trust God with the rest.

*Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, by Dr. Ludwig Ott

God bless all of us,

Ruthie
 
Thank you for making me dig out my Ott* and look at the subject of Original Sin.

Here’s my summary:

The Original Sin resulted in the loss of sanctifying grace, which means the loss of the Beatific Vision (which happens after death). This is restored by Baptism, and after that, by the other Sacraments.

It also resulted in the loss of the wholeness God intended us to have - the loss of immortality, of physical integrity, and innocence about sin. Thus we have death, suffering, and concupiscence. The Sacraments do not affect this, except for giving us graces to help us resist sin.

Original Sin did not lose us the ability to perform good moral actions.

What we do with Sanctifying Grace after receiving the Sacraments is up to us. We can have more or less of it, depending on our actions. Mortal sin destroys it, but Reconciliation restores it.

Unbaptized babies who die are deprived of the Beatific Vision, but (of course) there is no punishment for sin. The Beatific Vision is spiritual, since our human eyeballs cannot see it either before or after the resurrection of our bodies. It is the ability to see our Triune God as He is. Currently we see Him through things - creation, beauty, thunderstorms, love, etc. - and through faith.

That lack of the Beatific Vision is **all **we know about what happens to the unbaptized innocents who die. So we must use our faith to trust God with the rest.

*Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, by Dr. Ludwig Ott

God bless all of us,

Ruthie
At least part of that is out of date. The Catholic Church does not teach that unbaptized babies are deprived of the beatific vision. The latest I have heard is that we leave them to the mercy of God and hope that God will find a way unknown to us to bring them into His presence. My own belief is that God found that way through Christ’s atonement. There is no good reason to believe God would reject unbaptized children who have committed no personal sin from entering His presence. It is my belief that God, who allowed these children to die before being provided the option of baptism, provided a way for them to be saved. That way was Christ’s atonement.
 
At least part of that is out of date.
Dogma does not go out of date. :eek:

Sorry, I’m so tired that my eyes are all blurry, and I can’t read the index in my Ott to double check on that.

So this post will bump this till tomorrow…

God bless s s z z z z zzzzz,

Ruthie :yawn::sleep:
 
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