Reform of Liturgy or Reform of Heart--which should come first?

[Cat]

I have a question and I really don’t have an answer. I am hoping that some of you can discuss this and perhaps it will help me to arrive at a conclusion. Right now, I’m just confused.

First a background: I had a rather discouraging experience at work today (I’m back part-time.) Our bishop is one of the twenty or so who has written to Notre Dame and asked them to rescind the invitation to Pres. Obama. Of course our local newspaper covered this, printed the letter in full, and today published an editorial stoutly condemning the bishop’s actions.

What was discouraging was that all of the Catholics that I work with were condeming the bishop, too, and not with kindness. I would not want to have some of those names applied to me!

I spoke up for the bishop, but immediately one of the more aggressive ones said, “Well, I can see that this will get out-of-control so let’s just stop the conversation now.”

And I did. I think I did the right thing. I’m still not 100% after my surgery and I probably would have gotten myself in trouble for saying too much if the conversation had continued. At least I managed to stop the hate-fest.

Interesting how that aggressive one had no intention of stopping the conversation as long as everyone (Catholic) was chiming in and agreeing that the bishop is a pompous ___hole among other things. But when I spoke up in his defense and in defense of the Catholic Church, then “the conversation was getting out of control.” I guess they didn’t want to hear the opposing arguments, they just want to listen to their own hateful views.

Anyway, it was discouraging. And it brought to mind many of the threads on CAF. Often, I’ve read posts in which the poster claims that if we were to “reform the liturgy and eliminate abuses, then the people’s hearts would return to true Catholicism.”

After this morning, I am not so sure about that. And that’s my question: Will a reformed liturgy reform hearts, or will reformed hearts reform the liturgy?

WHICH should come first? If we reform the liturgy (eliminate abuses, more Latin, get rid of all the songs with questionable theology, restore Communion on the tongue only, altar boys only, only male lectors, etc. etc–all the things that many of these threads have discussed), WOULD this bring the hearts of Catholics into line with orthodox Church thinking?

OR do the hearts have to be reformed first, through a work of the Holy Spirit, and THEN Catholics will fervently WANT to reform the liturgy (eliminate abuses, more Latin, etc. etc.–all the things listed above)?

Like I said, I don’t know the answer. If reforming the liturgy would truly reform hearts, then I say, Reform the liturgy! But after listening to the Catholics in my workplace this morning, I suspect that any attempts to reform the Liturgy would result in them departing the Church totally. And maybe that’s good, but I don’t ever think it’s good when people reject Jesus.

??? You can see why I’m confused and discouraged! What do you think?

 

[SMHW]

I’ll just answer your question by saying that I think anyone who thinks reforming the Liturgy will change all hearts is crazy.

And anyone who thinks changed hearts will result in a completely reformed Liturgy is crazy.

And I have no idea which thing happening first would have the most positive effect on both the Liturgy and on people’s hearts. (And I think anyone who says they know which order is “most efficient” is probably crazy as well.)

 

[japhy]

Will a reformed liturgy reform hearts, or will reformed hearts reform the liturgy?

WHICH should come first? If we reform the liturgy (eliminate abuses, more Latin, get rid of all the songs with questionable theology, restore Communion on the tongue only, altar boys only, only male lectors, etc. etc–all the things that many of these threads have discussed), WOULD this bring the hearts of Catholics into line with orthodox Church thinking?

OR do the hearts have to be reformed first, through a work of the Holy Spirit, and THEN Catholics will fervently WANT to reform the liturgy (eliminate abuses, more Latin, etc. etc.–all the things listed above)?

I think it is naive to think that if the Mass were reformed drastically in the traditional direction this week, hearts would simply re-align with Religious North. The de-orientation of our hearts did not happen overnight, and neither will the re-orientation.

I would suggest that we should reform our hearts first, so that people will not be disgusted or turned off from the Church when her liturgy is celebrated more traditionally. That reform-of-the-heart requires priests to start preaching better, catechists to start teaching better, and people to start listening (to the right voices) better.

 

[The_Reginator]

A very good question for us to ponder.
Here’s ONE thought:
If the liturgy were changed in such a way as to garner a greater understanding of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament and the unique roll of the priest then maybe hearts (and opinions) would begin to change. (For instance, if ONLY a priest was allowed to touch the Sacrament I could see a potential for greater respect for the priesthood.)
But this is more of a ‘chicken and egg’ kind of question – both need changing, but how can this be done? Lets think and pray.

 

[benedictgal]

Something that we should probably remember is that the Church is the New Israel. We need to re-read the texts of Ancient Israel so as to avoid falling into the same traps that ensnared our ancestors in the Faith.

The Lord spent significant amounts of time dictating to Moses just how, when and where He shoudl be worshipped. In fact, he warned Moses what would happen if Ancient Israel were to deviate from its cultic form of worship.

The Lord dictated this particular form of cultic worship because He was trying to prepare Ancient Israel to receive the gift of His Son because through Ancient Israel, the world would learn holiness. However, time and time again, Ancient Israel deviated from the norms established by the Lord, Himself. This led to Ancient Israel being severely punished by God to the point of having the Temple destroyed and Ancient Israel being sent off to exile in Babylon. It was not until the Temple was destroyed that Ancient Israel realized the error of her ways and repented, so to speak.

In a sense, we are going through our own period of exile. Many folks became infected with the alleged Spirit of Vatican II without ever reading what the authoritative documents of the Holy See had to say about the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Creativity and loose interpretations of the documents led to a lot of confusion and disunity. This was not what the Council intended, as Pope Benedict XVI has attested to in many of his writings about the Mass.

The Reform of the Reform does not exist in a vaccuum apart from the Reform of the Heart. When Ancient Israel could no longer offer sacrifice to the Lord because of their exile, the prayers of lament poured forth and they offered the only sacrifice they could, a humbled and contrite heart. As the New Israel, we should take into account the lessens from our ancestors in the Faith.

Each of us has an innate sense of the Faith imbedded deep within our hearts. Even in the depths of our souls, we know when something is wrong. When we begin to open our hearts to what the Church desires for the Mass and humbly obey Her norms, then, we will have both the Reform of the Reform and the Reform of the Heart. Pope Benedict XVI cannot do this by himself. He needs a faithful people behind him.

 

[Ockham]

I’m willing to bet those who spoke so viciously against the bishop have Obama paraphernalia in their cubicle. America has never been so polarized as today; he has the widest gap in approval rating in modern history. Today Obama equated pro-lifers with white extremists and the petition at wwwnotredamescandal.com went over 260,000. Perhaps your colleagues are feeling a cognitive dissonance that is displaying itself in animosity towards those who challenge the self-proclaimed saviour of change and hope.

 

[Cat]

I’m willing to bet those who spoke so viciously against the bishop have Obama paraphernalia in their cubicle. America has never been so polarized as today; he has the widest gap in approval rating in modern history. Today Obama equated pro-lifers with white extremists and the petition at wwwnotredamescandal.com went over 260,000. Perhaps your colleagues are feeling a cognitive dissonance that is displaying itself in animosity towards those who challenge the self-proclaimed saviour of change and hope.

I’m not sure. It certainly is possible, although actual political campaigning (buttons, posters, etc.) is forbidden in my workplace (a hospital)–yet apparently it’s OK to bash a bishop. But yes, I agree, it’s sad how many Catholics supported pro-choice candidates, and used lame excuses like, “George W. Bush supports the death penalty and the bishop isn’t condeming that.” It’s very possible that this person supported Obama because of the ethnic group she is from, which traditionally in our city is Democrat, no matter what evil platform the Democrat candidates are promoting.

What I do know is that this particular person has a personal gripe against the bishop because he refused to allow her father to become a deacon. Now I think it’s interesting that the bishop refused to allow her father to become a deacon–her father is a great guy, but…his daughter carries this animosity against the Church in her heart and is willing to condemn a bishop for a pro-life stand. I have no idea how the bishop discerned this attitude of a daughter’s heart (I personally think that the Holy Spirit guided him into all truth!) , but the Scriptures are clear that deacons and elders need to have obedient children. So IMO, the bishop made the RIGHT decision. Make sense?

I wonder how many other people who are bashing our bishop (and the newspaper was full of sickening letters yesterday) have some kind of personal gripe against the Catholic Church (e.g., refusal to grant an annulment, condemnation of a personal practice like homosexual sex or artificial birth control, etc.), and they are allowing this personal grudge to permeate their lives and give them an excuse to disobey the Church and disparage the Church’s apostles.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Hi,

I can’t see how attempted reform of the liturgy could do anything for those who do not obey the norms in place now. I can’t see how excluding women altogether from liturgical functions would accomplish anything good, and would probably alienate many more people.

A firm loving hand will instill confidence, and possibly bring some back. There are many faithful Catholics. They are just not as verbal and agresive as those with a chip on their shoulder or think they know better than Church authority.

Lux

 

[Ockham]

The Church deals with morals. As sinners most of us have committed mortal sins. Perhaps those that shout loudest against the Church are not dealing with their sins. Often if you scratch the surface of a Church hyper-critic you’ll find something that puts their animosity into perspective. Because the Church is the oldest, largest, and most visible Christian religion it is the largest target for hostile intentions. Christ said if the world hates you it hated him first so these displays are nothing new. If we remember all the martyrs who died for the faith then putting up with mindless banter shouldn’t bother us too much.

 

[pnewton]

After this morning, I am not so sure about that. And that’s my question: Will a reformed liturgy reform hearts, or will reformed hearts reform the liturgy?

WHICH should come first? If we reform the liturgy (eliminate abuses, more Latin, get rid of all the songs with questionable theology, restore Communion on the tongue only, altar boys only, only male lectors, etc. etc–all the things that many of these threads have discussed), WOULD this bring the hearts of Catholics into line with orthodox Church thinking?.. You can see why I’m confused and discouraged! What do you think?

Both. Either. Yes.

A spiritual revival will always have the result of better worship. A truer worship will always result in a spiritual revival. The Church is always working to give us the best liturgy. We must always work having the purest of heart.

Will this drive some away? Always. John 6 will be forever repeated. The sword that Jesus brought will always divide the faithful from the frivilous. But to quote our late, great pontiff, do not be afraid. Trust in God and commend your loved ones and friends to him.