Reform of the Reform and forgetting the TLM?

  • Thread starter Thread starter thunderballs75
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
T

thunderballs75

Guest
I think the current “Reform of the Reform” thing I keep hearing about is great. **Awesome **even. The OF would be just great if we could remove the abuses, put in some reverent music, and stick a theologically orthodox homily somewhere. I wouldn’t mind going to it every Sunday at all. In fact, I’d probably look forward to it. So I am all for the Reform of the Reform.

However, my point is this: Will this make us forget about the Extraordinary Form? Will people say to themselves “Well, now that the OF is reverent, we don’t need to worry about the EF”? Many times I’ve noticed that the people at the EF are really just there because it is the only reverent Mass within a hundred miles. So with that fixed, people will not be concerned with getting the EF in their parishes or attending one. Maybe the Reform of the Reform could be harmful to the Latin Mass community. See what I am saying?

This is bad, because the Extraordinary Form truly does have significant differences between the OF of the Mass as it is now. It really isn’t just the language and the reverence. There is so much more to it than that in my opinion. Whereas the EF is immensely important now because of the rampant liturgical abuses, with that not being a problem the importance may be downplayed quite a bit. And the Mass of St.Pius V could fade into obscurity.

God bless.
 
The EF will never be forgotten, the EF is the most highest form of worship humans can bring up for the glory of God. It’s just like some things in this world, they’re just too good to fade away.

And don’t forget the SSPX and FSSP 😃

However, the Novus Ordo needs more reform than you’ve stated.

It should be celebrated Ad Orientem.
No guitars.
The consecration should be in Latin.

Optional:
Incense.
Vestments that look more Catholic than Lutheran. 👍

The EF (and let’s not forget the Eastern Rite Liturgies) was, is and will always remain superior to the Novus Ordo.
  • Pax.
 
Thunder.

I think the OF form of the Mass should be transformed to be closer to the EF form of the Mass. Something like another form of the EF Low Mass. Keep the expanded readings and change everything else.
 
\The EF will never be forgotten, the EF is the most highest form of worship humans can bring up for the glory of God. It’s just like some things in this world, they’re just too good to fade away.

And don’t forget the SSPX and FSSP\

**WRONG!

The Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom or St. Basil is the highest form of worship.

The SSPX is not in communion with the Church.

And what are Lutheran vestments? All Lutheran ministers I’ve known have worn the traditional Western mass vestment.

Or by “Lutheran Vestments” do you mean a gothic chasuble as opposed to fiddleback?**
 
Well, in regards to the original post, I am one who is not at all glad about the “Reform of the Reform” in the way that many people see it. Why, you might ask? The Novus Ordo is at its very core protestant - not only have the words of the Mass and the other Sacraments been changed, but the Theology behind them has changed. A priest no longer pronounces the same words of consecration and most likely does not have the same intention as did priests from years past.

And for that reason I will never attend one of the modern “sacraments.” There is both one Church - there is One Mass with all of its various rites (Ambrosian, Roman, Mozarabic, etc.) and the Novus Ordo liturgy and theology can not be part of that Church. Because, if it is, how can Traditional Theology (the priest alone may touch the Eucharist, etc, etc, etc) possibly be in union with it!
 
peregrinus_WA said:
I think the OF form of the Mass should be transformed to be closer to the EF form of the Mass. Something like another form of the EF Low Mass. Keep the expanded readings and change everything else.
Click to expand...
This is kind of what I meant. What if the OF becomes similar to the EF (though not the same) and people abandon the EF because they see no point?
 
GunslingerSaint said:
The EF will never be forgotten, the EF is the most highest form of worship humans can bring up for the glory of God. It’s just like some things in this world, they’re just too good to fade away.

And don’t forget the SSPX and FSSP 😃

However, the Novus Ordo needs more reform than you’ve stated.

It should be celebrated Ad Orientem.
No guitars.
The consecration should be in Latin.

Optional:
Incense.
Vestments that look more Catholic than Lutheran. 👍

The EF (and let’s not forget the Eastern Rite Liturgies) was, is and will always remain superior to the Novus Ordo.
  • Pax.
Click to expand...
I agree that the EF will never be forgotten as it’s simply too beautiful. I would also take your NO reforms a little further:

-Restoration of the ablutions before high mass, prayers at the foot of the altar, introit, and final gospel
-Exclusive use of the Roman Canon for the Eucharistic Prayer
-Exclusive use of the 1962 Offertory prayer
-Kyrie always in Greek
-Gloria, Sanctus, Agnus Dei, and Consecration always in Latin
-Scripture readings, including Final Gospel, in the vernacular, but may be read in Latin first if the celebrant desires.
-Remainder of the Mass could be said in approved vernacular translation or Latin, at the discretion of the celebrant.
-Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus, Agnus Dei, Mysterium Fidei always sung or chanted when a choir/schola or cantor is present
-Option to sing/chant the Pater and Credo
-Communion and Offertory hymns may only be traditional Latin hymns or chants. More popular vernacular hyms could be sung at the entrance and recessional.
-Communion either in the form of bread only or by intinction, exclusively on the tongue, and kneeling for those who are physically able. People with wheat allergies could make arrangements in advance to receive only under the form of wine.
-Also, as a bare minimum, the Canon should be recited ad orientem (or Ad Deum, if you prefer that phrasing)

There are actually Novus Ordo parishes where this stuff happens…
 
bpbasilphx said:
The EF will never be forgotten, the EF is the most highest form of worship humans can bring up for the glory of God. It’s just like some things in this world, they’re just too good to fade away.
Click to expand...
That is really a matter of opinion. Are you trying to say that the Syriac and Alexandrene, e.g., are lesser forms? If so, it would be a bit out of character for you.
bpbasilphx said:
And what are Lutheran vestments? All Lutheran ministers I’ve known have worn the traditional Western mass vestment.

Or by “Lutheran Vestments” do you mean a gothic chasuble as opposed to fiddleback?
Click to expand...
I can’t speak for another poster, but I suspect the reference may be to those horrid conical things that became very common in the post-conciliar liturgical free-for-all. And before someone chimes in, yes, I know that conical chasubles were used in the Middle Ages, but those were made of, shall we say, more appropriate fabrics than the modern versions. Plus they’re quite unwieldy and weight a ton, which is why they gave way to the more flowing gothic style, which eventually led to the stiffer (and also heavy) Boromean style, which led to the fiddleback (which, BTW, I personally don’t care for). The gothic style remained in use in various places all along, and experienced a major comeback in the post-WWII era.
Click to expand...
 
Even the most reverent NO Mass cannot compare to the TLM. So many prayers were ripped from the TLM, most highlighting the Catholic faith in comparison to the Protestants.

However, if the NO Mass got rid of the Lutheran table, faced Liturgical East, kept the sanctuary more reserved and only gave the Eucharist to those kneeling and on their tongues, then it would at least be closer to the proper form of worship.
 
thunderballs75 said:
This is kind of what I meant. What if the OF becomes similar to the EF (though not the same) and people abandon the EF because they see no point?
Click to expand...
At its best, meaning ad orientem and in Latin (which is, admittedly, quite rare) the true “reform of the reform” OF is a reasonable alternative. Still, though, The EF is the EF, and the OF (even in its best “reform of the reform” mode) is not, and could never be, quite the same.

But, keep in mind that the EF has, historically, undergone organic development, and may do so yet again.
 
Seminarian_Matt said:
Well, in regards to the original post, I am one who is not at all glad about the “Reform of the Reform” in the way that many people see it. Why, you might ask? The Novus Ordo is at its very core protestant - not only have the words of the Mass and the other Sacraments been changed, but the Theology behind them has changed. A priest no longer pronounces the same words of consecration and most likely does not have the same intention as did priests from years past.

And for that reason I will never attend one of the modern “sacraments.” There is both one Church - there is One Mass with all of its various rites (Ambrosian, Roman, Mozarabic, etc.) and the Novus Ordo liturgy and theology can not be part of that Church. Because, if it is, how can Traditional Theology (the priest alone may touch the Eucharist, etc, etc, etc) possibly be in union with it!
Click to expand...
I will state first that I am in agreement with those who hold to the “traditional” ways of doing things in the liturgy (no EMHC’s, kneeling, etc.), however, these are not doctrine, but parts of the rubrics for the rites. To separate oneself in the way the SSPX has done is the same thing that Martin Luther did. The Church and the abuses people within the Church commit must be dealt with from WITHIN, not by branching off and doing your own thing.

The OF is illicit in its current form, but once the changes are made, it will, indeed, be licit. To state otherwise is to call the Church a liar. It’s blasphemy, plain and simple.

The only thing that can heal the Church’s divisions and bring the proper reverence back into the OF is persistance, time and the Holy Spirit. It will happen gradually. We must be patient and stick together, not try to separate ourselves in protest.
 
The Vatican signed off on the OF so doesn’t that make it licit? By who’s authority are you saying otherwise?
 
Ockham said:
Even the most reverent NO Mass cannot compare to the TLM. So many prayers were ripped from the TLM, most highlighting the Catholic faith in comparison to the Protestants.

However, if the NO Mass got rid of the Lutheran table, faced Liturgical East, kept the sanctuary more reserved and only gave the Eucharist to those kneeling and on their tongues, then it would at least be closer to the proper form of worship.
Click to expand...
I agree with this. Pasting bandages all over the Novus Ordo won’t make it the TLM but it will be an improvement in the meantime.

What this means is that I think “reform” should only be the first step in restoring the Traditional Mass entirely.
 
Ockham said:
The Vatican signed off on the OF so doesn’t that make it licit? By who’s authority are you saying otherwise?
Click to expand...
And much more recently, they have revoked their approval.

In part: "In a letter to the president of the US bishops’ conference, the prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship has strongly underlined the importance of proper translations for liturgical texts.

Cardinal Francis Arinze (bio - news) warned Bishop William Skylstad that his office could not approve new translations unless they conform to the principles set forth in Liturgiam Authenticam, the Vatican instruction of March 2001. The cardinal also said that existing texts must be brought into conformity with Liturgiam Authenticam, and the US bishops will not receive permission to continue using defective texts. "

That makes them illicit. They have been (and are being) tolerated only until the new approved text comes into effect next year. As they are, the Vatican does not approve.

Source is from May 22, 2006, catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=44304
 
sarahraegraham said:
And much more recently, they have revoked their approval.

In part: "In a letter to the president of the US bishops’ conference, the prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship has strongly underlined the importance of proper translations for liturgical texts.

Cardinal Francis Arinze (bio - news) warned Bishop William Skylstad that his office could not approve new translations unless they conform to the principles set forth in Liturgiam Authenticam, the Vatican instruction of March 2001. The cardinal also said that existing texts must be brought into conformity with Liturgiam Authenticam, and the US bishops will not receive permission to continue using defective texts. "

That makes them illicit. They have been (and are being) tolerated only until the new approved text comes into effect next year. As they are, the Vatican does not approve.
Click to expand...
It seems that you are confusing the OF with the English-language version of same. The two are not quite the same thing. The OF in its “reform of the reform” mode is the editio typica, published in Latin, not the ICEL-tainted “translation” that has been used in the US.

The OF itself is not considered “illicit” by Rome.
 
To be honest the amount of reform the OF needs means that once you’ve finnished its practically the EF, simpler just to drop it and let the EF take its pride of place once more.
 
123defiant said:
To be honest the amount of reform the OF needs means that once you’ve finnished its practically the EF, simpler just to drop it and let the EF take its pride of place once more.
Click to expand...
I would have to agree with you. The english is nice, though, when properly used.
 
Ockham said:
Even the most reverent NO Mass cannot compare to the TLM. So many prayers were ripped from the TLM, most highlighting the Catholic faith in comparison to the Protestants.
Click to expand...
I agree with those who are saying drop the OF and restore the EF to its pride of place. And the quote above is one reason why I would rather attend the EF in English with the proper translation, then the OF in Latin.
 
Welcome to the church of England circa 1549. You just advocated for the Anglicans and their split with Rome.

The EF should be in Latin period for all time. It is a common, unchanging language, that all people worldwide can unite under. There are no vulgar language changes of meaning.

There is NO problem with people using a hand missal to learn the Mass in latin and read it in their own language. After a while you will pick up a lot of Latin and should be able to understand many if not most of the words you will hear in Latin.

Couple this with proper Latin instruction in Grammer school and I think you could have a worldwide body of fluent Latin speakers in the Church within ten years. Will this happen? Don’t hold your breath.

Advocating for vernacular in the Mass is like giving away our birthright as Catholics. How about you advocate to an orthodox Jew that he should pray in the vernacular instead of Hebrew? See how far you get with that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top