Reform or Rebellion?

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I was reading the official book of teachings of Lutherans called the Book of Concord and I saw some amazing suff.
The section which talked about the Papacy being the anti-Christ had a lot of bogus stuff to say, but as I was getting to the end of it I noticed that the “reformers” who signed the document actulally were admitting what they were doing was unauthorized!

Here is the official document:
bookofconcord.org/treatise.html
Here are some quotes: 40] …the Pope assumes to himself divine authority in a threefold manner. First, because he takes to himself the right to change the doctrine of Christ and services instituted by God, and wants his own doctrine and his own services to be observed as divine; secondly, because he takes to himself the power not only of binding and loosing in this life, but also the jurisdiction over souls after this life; thirdly, because the Pope does not want to be judged by the Church or by any one, and puts his own authority ahead of the decision of Councils and the entire Church. But to be unwilling to be judged by the Church or by any one is to make oneself God. Lastly, these errors so horrible, and this impiety, he defends with the greatest cruelty, and puts to death those dissenting.
Isnt this exactly how the “reformers” act?
42] To dissent from the agreement of so many nations and to be called schismatics is a grave matter. But divine authority commands all not to be allies and defenders of impiety and unjust cruelty. On this account our consciences are sufficiently excused; for the errors of the kingdom of the Pope are manifest. And Scripture with its entire voice exclaims that these errors are a teaching of demons and of Antichrist.

57] Therefore, even though the bishop of Rome had the primacy by divine right, yet since he defends godless services and doctrine conflicting with the Gospel, obedience is not due him; yea, it is necessary to resist him as Antichrist. The errors of the Pope are manifest and not trifling.
In some ways its like Im reading a page the Lefebvrists wrote.
67] For wherever the Church is, there is the authority [command] to administer the Gospel. Therefore it is necessary for the Church to retain the authority to call, elect, and ordain ministers. And this authority is a gift which in reality is given to the Church, which no human power can wrest from the Church…
Wow.
76] Since, therefore, bishops have tyrannically transferred this jurisdiction to themselves alone, and have basely abused it,there is no need, because of this jurisdiction,** to obey bishops**. But since there are just reasons why we do not obey, it is right also to restore this jurisdiction to godly pastors [to whom, by Christ’s command, it belongs], and to see to it that it is legitimately exercised for the reformation of morals and the glory of God.
Right here we clearly see the shameless tearing down of the Church while at the same time feeling justified in doing so and starting their own religion.

I cant believe these guys openly admit to this stuff.
 
Yup. Basic Reformation history. The Reformers denied the Church’s claim to authority not only with regards to scriptural exegesis and doctrine, but they also were opposed to the influence of the Church in the socio-political arena.

Its too bad the Reformation resulted in schism. 😦
 
I suppose if the guys who wrote the book of Concord had papal infallibility, they wouldn’t have made so many errors and contradictions within the same work.

Thal59
 
Peace be with you!

I hate using the word “Reformation” when referring to the Protestant movement. It was heresy, plain and simple, by definition. Look at Cluny, the Dominicans, and the Franciscans if you want to see reform. What the Protestants brought was revolt; the didn’t reform anything.

In Luther’s book on how the Christian faith was to be practiced (though I forget what the name of that was at the moment…was it his confessions?) he says that Christians are to pray “In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit”. How many Lutherans do you know that cross themselves? He also says that Christians should confess their sins to their ministers. How many Lutherans do you know that go to the Sacrament of Reconciliation? Luther wrote and gave sermons on Mary’s perpetual virginity, Immaculate Conception, and Assumption into Heaven. So did Calvin, by the way. How many Protestants do you know that not only believe these things, but DON’T refer to them as idolatry? Yes, the Protestant Revolt was a sucess…

In Christ,
Rand
 
Rand Al'Thor:
Peace be with you!

I hate using the word “Reformation” when referring to the Protestant movement. It was heresy, plain and simple, by definition. Look at Cluny, the Dominicans, and the Franciscans if you want to see reform. What the Protestants brought was revolt; the didn’t reform anything…
In Christ,
Rand
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I agree. That is why I and others refer to that era as the “DEFORMATION”. There was actually no reformation taking place at all.

Chipper
 
40.png
Chipper:
I agree. That is why I and others refer to that era as the “DEFORMATION”. There was actually no reformation taking place at all.
Click to expand...
My history/religion teacher has always preferred to use the term “Protestant Revolt”… :twocents:
 
The Christ has made the covenant with his Church,

Like there were the God’s covenant with Adam,
Noah,Abraham,Moses ; so the Christ has made the covenant with his Church.

Even when the Church had the dark periods of its history , the Christ did not break the covenant with his Church.
We can see , by the example of the Jews.
God never intended to build new Judaism in the Old Testament , God wouldn’t praise the divisions and break of the unity.

God never ordains anyone to start a reformed Judaism under the banner of Sola Torah

In Epistle of Jude 11 , Jude warns the reader not to error in the same way that Korah and his band of rebellious followers did.
Jude is reffering to Numbers , the 16 verse .
If You read the story You’ll find that Korah said nothing that would sugest his disapproval of Moses in regards to orthodoxy.
Korah’s sin was that he wanted to know who put Moses in charge , and why Moses thought he was so much better than every body else , bossing them around …
Hadn’t God already made it clear that all the Israelites
were a’’ kingdom of priests , a holy nation’’ ? ( Ex 19:6.)
Who did Moses think he was to impose his will upon them.
It did not turn out well for Korah and his followers.
Jude is giving a stern worning to knew Covenant believers : DON’T REBEL AGAINST LEADERSHIP !

So many rebelled and protested Christians’’ today are arrogantly complain:
Who is Peter ?
Who is Pope ?
 
Catholic_Dude said:
I was reading the official book of teachings of Lutherans called the Book of Concord and I saw some amazing suff.
The section which talked about the Papacy being the anti-Christ had a lot of bogus stuff to say, but as I was getting to the end of it I noticed that the “reformers” who signed the document actulally were admitting what they were doing was unauthorized!

Here is the official document:
bookofconcord.org/treatise.html
Here are some quotes: 40] …the Pope assumes to himself divine authority in a threefold manner. First, because he takes to himself the right to change the doctrine of Christ and services instituted by God, and wants his own doctrine and his own services to be observed as divine; secondly, because he takes to himself the power not only of binding and loosing in this life, but also the jurisdiction over souls after this life; thirdly, because the Pope does not want to be judged by the Church or by any one, and puts his own authority ahead of the decision of Councils and the entire Church. But to be unwilling to be judged by the Church or by any one is to make oneself God. Lastly, these errors so horrible, and this impiety, he defends with the greatest cruelty, and puts to death those dissenting.
Isnt this exactly how the “reformers” act?
42] To dissent from the agreement of so many nations and to be called schismatics is a grave matter. But divine authority commands all not to be allies and defenders of impiety and unjust cruelty. On this account our consciences are sufficiently excused; for the errors of the kingdom of the Pope are manifest. And Scripture with its entire voice exclaims that these errors are a teaching of demons and of Antichrist.

57] Therefore, even though the bishop of Rome had the primacy by divine right, yet since he defends godless services and doctrine conflicting with the Gospel, obedience is not due him; yea, it is necessary to resist him as Antichrist. The errors of the Pope are manifest and not trifling.
In some ways its like Im reading a page the Lefebvrists wrote.
67] For wherever the Church is, there is the authority [command] to administer the Gospel. Therefore it is necessary for the Church to retain the authority to call, elect, and ordain ministers. And this authority is a gift which in reality is given to the Church, which no human power can wrest from the Church…
Wow.
76] Since, therefore, bishops have tyrannically transferred this jurisdiction to themselves alone, and have basely abused it,there is no need, because of this jurisdiction,** to obey bishops**. But since there are just reasons why we do not obey, it is right also to restore this jurisdiction to godly pastors [to whom, by Christ’s command, it belongs], and to see to it that it is legitimately exercised for the reformation of morals and the glory of God.
Right here we clearly see the shameless tearing down of the Church while at the same time feeling justified in doing so and starting their own religion.

I cant believe these guys openly admit to this stuff.
Click to expand...
What don’t you understand? You can read from the passages that you quoted that the Reformers believed that the Pope was usurping divine authority, cruely oppressing those who opposed such actions, acting contrary to Scripture and taking the form of the Anti-Christ. Now, assuming that such assertions were true–or at least that you believed them to be true–then what is surprising or puzzling about the actions taken by the Reformers? You can better understand other people’s actions if you try to “look through their eyes” or “walk in their shoes”.
 
As there is Hierarchy in heaven , so there must be the hierarchy on earth.

A lot of writings of the Protestant historiographers about the middle ages and crusades can be called as a fables , which has nothing to do with the truth.
Without proper understanding of the context of those times and the circumstances of those times , we can not judge properly the events of those times.

In my opinion the Unity of the Catholic Church, the unity of Europe was much more important than money and atheism of the rich.
The unity of the Catholic Church and the unity of Europe was much more important than the Jewish fables and irrational attachment to the book ( selected - 66 ).

I think Your ‘’ journey-come-late’’ idea of Christology and Ecclesiology is attempt to discover America again today.

Your Theological discoveries and reformations have no end.
You are reforming and reforming and reforming…because the
most learned among You , sooner or later are between dilemma :
In what I should believe in my own interpretation of Scripture , or how my denomination teaches the Scripture ?

The Protestant countries are already atheistic countries.
Hedonism, Paganism and mammona are our gods.
The Christianity is dying out in Europe.

Many Protestant denominations call themselves Christian , but operating with totally different paradigm of spirituality who has nothing to do with Christian ; and now it seems they blame the Catholic Church in the opposite , they blame it for the faithfulness and not compromised with the spirit of time.
 
Catholic_Dude said:
40] …the Pope assumes to himself divine authority in a threefold manner. First, **because he takes to himself the right to change the doctrine of Christ **and services instituted by God, and wants his own doctrine and his own services to be observed as divine; secondly, because he takes to himself the power not only of binding and loosing in this life, but also the jurisdiction over souls after this life; thirdly, because the Pope does not want to be judged by the Church or by any one, and puts his own authority ahead of the decision of Councils and the entire Church. But to be unwilling to be judged by the Church or by any one is to make oneself God. Lastly, these errors so horrible, and this impiety, he defends with the greatest cruelty, and puts to death those dissenting.
​
Click to expand...

Hi
I never knew that he has the powers to put to death those dissenting. Is it true? Is it acceptable to my Christian friends in this age of freedom and humanism?
Thanks​
 
The problem is that neither Luther nor Calvin had a problem with their OWN authority.

St. Francis wanted to reform the church, but the not-so-exemplary pope of his day took some convincing. Did Francis denounce the pope’s sins and abuses of power and strike out on his own? No. He waited and asked persistently and was finally granted papal approval.

Luther and Calvin were both, unfortunately, much too enamored of their own power to have the humility to lead a reform… and wound up with a revolution. Then they had the nerve to act surprised when the German peasants or Zwingli took their revolt even further than the original “reformers” wanted it to go!
 
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