Reform seminary structure and leadership

[Tis_Bearself]

Bad priest, no donut

 

[fide]

And I understand all that you’ve said… “but”. But sometimes, the loves of the heart betray the man. Some can talk the right talk, but their walk speaks louder still. And some parishioners want this! This is the dangerous part of it all. Some parishioners want to make the grand bargain of the world with God: to have and enjoy this world, but not offend God too much. They don’t want a priest “holier than thou” they would say - meaning, a priest who challenges their beloved sins and lives of contradiction, and who points them to true sanctity. They don’t want a Jesus who would cost them.

We all must be true to God who calls us. Some are called in one way, another in another. If we all are true to Him, we can stand before Him without shame - but in any case, He will accomplish His will on earth as it is in heaven.

 

[edward_george1]

I was called to be a priest. God called me, who I am and how I am, with the gifts and talents and interests and even flaws that I have. And since “for those who love God, all things work together for the good,” as St. Paul tells us, my fascination with soccer and Western movies and heraldry and black powder rifles and indie music can be just as much of service as my fascination with Scripture and Bioethics and Marian devotion and the Philokalia. I wasn’t called to stop being myself when I became a priest.

I think we have to be careful not to fall into the dualistic way of thinking that everything that is “churchy” is good, and everything else is garbage at best and evil at worst.

-Fr ACEGC

 

[TheLittleLady]

Seriously, I want to see these parish mansions!

 

[TheLittleLady]

Or it was a gift.

 

[TheLittleLady]

When your spouse is lying in the ER, dying, you do not want to worry that Fr. Joe’s car will break down on the side of the road. I promise you.

 

[Maximilian75]

My parish priest had an Apple watch, and I was kind of interiorally judgmental of him, like “he doesn’t need that…”

Then, he mentioned in a homily that it was a gift.

A lot of priests are well-liked people, and get a lot of gifts.

 

[LilyM]

Not only are such things often gifts, but also very useful - it can remind him of appointments and tasks without having to refer to paper diaries. It can even, if he is not in good health, continually monitor things like blood pressure or heart rate, which he may need to keep an eye on.

 

[goout]

goout:

Put some strong and competent lay women in positions of leadership and counsel in seminaries.

What would this accomplish?
…
The present crisis has nothing to do with whether it was ordained men or lay women in leadership.

What it would accomplish is to change the way of thinking, literally “to repent”, which is something we are all called to do.
The culture is exclusively male, exclusively celibate, and it is given to temptations to power, as these positions are given to long “terms”. Or as my faithful wife calls it, a “boys club”. Some of you may not appreciate this terminology, but it’s good to look out the window and at least hear other points of view. This point of view is abundantly out there.

If the culture is one way, and it’s broke, it should be open to healthy and appropriate change.

Go back to allow married priests

Again, what would this accomplish? …

Same as above. Yes sure married men abuse children also. But the hard facts are…this abuse crisis is predominately homosexual in it’s manifestation.
And again, this culture is exclusively male, and exclusively celibate, or at least on the surface it is celibate.

reform the diocesan priesthood to the religious model, where the benefits of secular culture are renounced (money, mansions,e tc…)
It seems to me, the current model has too much accommodation with the corruptions of the world: fame, fortune, pleasure. Maybe I’m wrong, but it doesn’t seem that the Franciscans and others are having this problems.)

You are wrong, in that religious orders have problems too.

Ok, that’s news to me. In our experience in the midwest USA these abuses are coming from diocesan priests and the hierarchy of the diocesan priesthood, and they seem to be germinated in seminary.

And I’m not sure where you get your impression of the priesthood, but we don’t have “money, mansions, etc.”

My apologies for the broad imprecision. I am referring to the upper levels of diocesan administration, ie our bishops and also seminary leadership.
I am not referring generally the majority of good priests serving Christ’s body “on the street”.
So the reference to the religious orders is an appeal to those charisms and virtues that do not accommodate to power, money, and influence.

So my big question in all of this is–what do you think any of this would accomplish? And have you ever been to seminary or worked in one?

-Fr ACEGC

No I do not work in one. My experience is probably like a lot of other people.
My brother was in seminary years ago as a 15 year old and left terrorized by some homosexual advances.
School friends who were altar servers were preyed on in our parish by abusive priests. 1 priest that taught us in school went to prison.
These men were all formed in a particular culture by a particular type of leadership. This has thankfully seemed to diminish with the latest generation of priests. So maybe I am behind the learning curve.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

my priests drive hundreds of km every week , on country roads. They need a solid, reliable car .

 

[goout]

What do solid reliable cars have to do with anything?
Sorry I am not intending to criticise someone’s work car.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

a 1964 beetle would not use unleaded petrol for starters, so getting petrol to it would be a problem
it would not handle the country roads, it would not have power steering, it would be too low to the ground for roads.
A priest needs a modern car with heating, cooling, power steering, unleaded petrol, storage for gear he needs to take from parish to parish, lights,especially night driving lights, fog lights, good braking in case of slamming on brakes due to kangaroos, a radio to listen to the footy on the long drive, comfy adjustable seats, lockable doors, demister, be nice to have a de frost build upper too early mornings.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

up thread comments on spending money on cars

 

[goout]

Great I wish folks would start a new thread on cars.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

To combat sexual abuse in the seminary, I think one needed reform is that there must be non-priests in position of authority in every seminary that can investigate allegations of sexual abuse.

that is the job, surely of law enforcement. these investigations are to be treated just like any other crime, by the law. If found there are charges to answer, then charge them.
we cannot continue to investigate in-house, we must leave that job to the proper secular authorities.

 

[goout]

PeterT:

To combat sexual abuse in the seminary, I think one needed reform is that there must be non-priests in position of authority in every seminary that can investigate allegations of sexual abuse.

that is the job, surely of law enforcement. these investigations are to be treated just like any other crime, by the law. If found there are charges to answer, then charge them.
we cannot continue to investigate in-house, we must leave that job to the proper secular authorities.

And at the same time, what Peter is suggesting is a change in culture and structure.
You can’t continue with something that is broken and expect the police to provide what the Church is wise enough and capable enough to fix.

The police are to prosecute criminals, the Church is about beatitude.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

culture change is very different to enforcing the law on criminal behaviour, we must separate the two.

and we must not police this ourselves in the catholic church. thats what got the catholic church into so much trouble with this in the first place.

but the culture change is a society change, not a seminary change. It has to be a grass roots change.
and I do strongly disagree that most of this is homosexual behaviour led.

 

[CRM_Brother]

From being in contact with diocesan seminarian as well as going through seminary in religious formation, I can say that there is definitely room for improvement with regards to human and spiritual formation. Again and again I have heard seminarians say that their assigned spiritual director who is supposed to oversee this development is overworked due to not enough spiritual directors being available at the seminary. Most times these priests are given a group of these seminarian on top of a full time professorship and possibly administrative duties. The priests to have mentioned to me that they wish there were enough priests for some to be assigned solely as formators and spiritual directors. Many dioceses and seminaries are already beginning to institute human formation seminars and programs on top of the theological studies, but there is still a great need for growth in these areas.

 

[goout]

culture change is very different to enforcing the law on criminal behaviour, we must separate the two.

and we must not police this ourselves in the catholic church.

but the culture change is a society change, not a seminary change. It has to be a grass roots change.
and I do strongly disagree that most of this is homosexual behaviour led.

Have you seen the real statistics on who is abusing and who is abused?
The Church is responsible for it’s culture, and the culture of the Body of Christ is the culture that saves the world, not the other way around.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

yes I have seen the real stats, here, in Australia, as published by the Royal Commission after 5 solid years of investigation and I cannot see it being an anomaly

Given the abusive priests here were sent to the USA for reeducation, to retreat centres specifically for priests and religious who were in time out for abusing children.

married men also abuse and rape. single men also abuse and rape, women have been found to abuse in the church , as have laity.
if we believe this one stat that its mainly homosexuals, we risk being blinded by the wider problem. and then blindsided when issues like this come out.

The whole of the catholic church, including us, you and me included, is the Body of The Church, is responsible for the culture of the Catholic church. and wider society included, is responsible for the culture that fomented this type of behaviour.
so what did we do wrong, thats the first question to ask. What did we do wrong after world war 11, what did we continue doing wrong that spawned the paedophile cabals that became parasitic in many of these institutions.
what is or has been going on in society that this behaviour has fomented over many religious and secular institutions post war and into the new millennium?

my one answer to that, is perhaps we did not listen to our children.