Reformation or Rebellion?

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CutlerB

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Sometimes, mostly on Catholic sites, you’ll see what is commonly called the “Protestant Reformation” referred to as either the “Protestant rebellion” or “revolt”.

Is this a common name? I’m more drawn to the “rebellion/revolt” thingy, since I don’t believe anything was “reformed”, unless you mean “twisted”.

Here in Germany, I dare call it mother country of the so-called “Reformation”, only that word is used, even by Catholics. There is no other word, though the other two “Rebellion” and “Revolte” exist, but would spark outrage if employed.

What do you call it, and why?
 
Well the movement WAS originally started as a means of achieving “reform” in some practices that had been twisted or at the very least misused by some of the “clergy” of the time.
It was and is one of constant need for if we truly are followers of Christ’s teaching and by extension His Church’s WE ARE in need to reform ourselves constantly to mold and comform ourselves.
Many Saints have achieved “reformation” in the ages.
How many of them broke up with the Church?
NONE :rolleyes:

It is NOT the Church that needs reformation, BUT US

So I would surmise that yeah it started as a “reformation” movement however it morphed into “rebellion” precisely because as a result they separated themselves from the vine.

Also I would point out the prophetic words “By their fruits you will recognize them”

What has been the result of the experiment?
Are they one as Jesus prayed?
How many “churches” or denominations are there?
Are they in accordance with what our forefathers taught?
Peter, Paul, John and all the Church fathers? I don’t think so.
Each denomination has it’s own interpretation of what Jesus taught and one man churches spring up every day.

For all this I concurr with you, Rebellion indeed.
“By their fruits you will recognize them”

Peace 👍
 
JerryZ said:
Well the movement WAS originally started as a means of achieving “reform” in some practices that had been twisted or at the very least misused by some of the “clergy” of the time.
It was and is one of constant need for if we truly are followers of Christ’s teaching and by extension His Church’s WE ARE in need to reform ourselves constantly to mold and comform ourselves.
Many Saints have achieved “reformation” in the ages.
How many of them broke up with the Church?
NONE :rolleyes:

It is NOT the Church that needs reformation, BUT US

So I would surmise that yeah it started as a “reformation” movement however it morphed into “rebellion” precisely because as a result they separated themselves from the vine.

Also I would point out the prophetic words “By their fruits you will recognize them”

What has been the result of the experiment?
Are they one as Jesus prayed?
How many “churches” or denominations are there?
Are they in accordance with what our forefathers taught?
Peter, Paul, John and all the Church fathers? I don’t think so.
Each denomination has it’s own interpretation of what Jesus taught and one man churches spring up every day.

For all this I concurr with you, Rebellion indeed.
“By their fruits you will recognize them”

Peace 👍
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Great post!
 
For a Catholic, it cannot be called a “Reformation”, since the Protestant Reformers left the Church, so what indeed were they reforming? Of course, from the Protestant perspective, since the Church is larger than that Catholic Church per se (they might even consider the Catholic Church outside the Church), they would insist it is reforming Christianity and not a rebellion at all.
 
CutlerB said:
Sometimes, mostly on Catholic sites, you’ll see what is commonly called the “Protestant Reformation” referred to as either the “Protestant rebellion” or “revolt”.

Is this a common name? I’m more drawn to the “rebellion/revolt” thingy, since I don’t believe anything was “reformed”, unless you mean “twisted”.

Here in Germany, I dare call it mother country of the so-called “Reformation”, only that word is used, even by Catholics. There is no other word, though the other two “Rebellion” and “Revolte” exist, but would spark outrage if employed.

What do you call it, and why?
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The events of that time have come down to us, through various writings, as the “Reformation” or the “Protestant Reformation”. Of course as others have pointed out…from the Catholic perspective…it was indeed a rebellion - or more accurately a schism.

That said, in choosing what terms to use, one must decide what is trying to be accomplished and use the best term available. The term “Protestant Reformation” is generally more fruitful since everyone knows what is meant and, when talking to protestants, it will not be taken as an insult. For these reasons, I generally do not like to refer to the time/events as the Protestant Revolution" or “Rebellion”.

Just my :twocents:

Peace
James
 
What started out as a reform quickly turned into a revolt and the revolution still rages today. Through the multiplicity and perpetuation of innumerable errors, we now find tiny chards of the one true church all over the globe. However, in looking at the big picture, one can quickly see through the marvel of the internet and satellite TV that the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic church of Jesus Christ is indeed spread throughout the world and bringing the good news of salvation through Baptism, penance, Holy Eucharist, confirmation, Vocational vows in the Sacraments of Matrimony and Holy Orders, and finally through the sacrament of Annointing of the sick. The church which provides the framework of love and truth to last a lifetime here and on into eternal salvation is still with us as Jesus promised when he instituted the Church, appointing the Apostles with Peter as the leader, and through apostolic succession, our Pope Francis today. I am of the opinion that we should call it what it is, and point out the obvious. No one is helped by coddling and sidestepping the real issues. Heresy and schism have brought society to its present state. Be strong, be faithful, be Catholic.
 
Rebellion. The Word is Truth and the Word twisted is Truth lost. The Word conquered the world and changed the heart of man. The Church defends the purity of the Word. The Word was handed down from Our Lord to Peter. Twist the Word and you imply that Our Lord is a poor communicator, or that Peter was an idiot.
 
The more I learned Church history, the more I became convinced that Reformation is the worst possible name for what happened. It completely covers up the true nature of the event and hides the historical consequences it has imposed upon Western civilization.

The Church has gone through periods of reformation constantly since the time of the Apostles. Indeed, there already was a reformation happening when the Protestants revolted. There have been periods of reformation since, such as right now.

I am not sure revolt is necessarily the best word either, but it fits better than reformation. Revolt seems wrong to me since the Reformation was largely a process of secular rulers seizing the Church. The trend of increasing secular power is pretty clear in history. So rather than revolt, perhaps secular conquest or plunder fits best.

Protestantism, to me, is better represented as a turning point in many nations whereby secular power exceeded the authority of the Church in traditionally religious aspects of society, even to the point of subsuming the Church, seizing her assets, and compelling the clergy to serve the interests of the state first.

Granted, it’s true that some Protestants eventually set themselves against state power after the fact. But by that time, they had already abrogated almost the entirety of the religious domain. That is why in America we have a government which now demands that we believe the boundary of religion is inside our own minds and no further. That it is a private affair, and everything else is the domain of state and economic powers.
 
Used2beSherryG said:
What started out as a reform quickly turned into a revolt and the revolution still rages today. Through the multiplicity and perpetuation of innumerable errors, we now find tiny chards of the one true church all over the globe. However, in looking at the big picture, one can quickly see through the marvel of the internet and satellite TV that the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic church of Jesus Christ is indeed spread throughout the world and bringing the good news of salvation through Baptism, penance, Holy Eucharist, confirmation, Vocational vows in the Sacraments of Matrimony and Holy Orders, and finally through the sacrament of Annointing of the sick. The church which provides the framework of love and truth to last a lifetime here and on into eternal salvation is still with us as Jesus promised when he instituted the Church, appointing the Apostles with Peter as the leader, and through apostolic succession, our Pope Francis today. I am of the opinion that we should call it what it is, and point out the obvious. No one is helped by coddling and sidestepping the real issues. Heresy and schism have brought society to its present state. Be strong, be faithful, be Catholic.
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While I am in general agreement on this - I feel that, in regards to the bolded, it is important to recognize what is and is not important in trying to get to the “real issues”.

If, in conversation with protestants we were to constantly refer to that period of time as “rebellion” or “revolt” etc…I could easily see the person we are speaking with becoming very defensive and even offended. Of course this might depend on the specific context of the conversation. If the conversation is a historical one about the events of that time, then certainly rebellion or revolt could be seen as accurate.
If the conversation is more geared to discussing specific differences in teachings and understandings as they exist today, the terms rebellion or revolt could easily be a distraction and thus be counterproductive.

As you say above - there needs to be a focus on the real issues and goals in a conversation. If the goal is to draw someone closer to communion with the Catholic Church, a soft voice and soft terms might be the better course.

just my opinion

Peace
James
 
Rete said:
The more I learned Church history, the more I became convinced that Reformation is the worst possible name for what happened. It completely covers up the true nature of the event and hides the historical consequences it has imposed upon Western civilization.

The Church has gone through periods of reformation constantly since the time of the Apostles. Indeed, there already was a reformation happening when the Protestants revolted. There have been periods of reformation since, such as right now.

I am not sure revolt is necessarily the best word either, but it fits better than reformation. Revolt seems wrong to me since the Reformation was largely a process of secular rulers seizing the Church. The trend of increasing secular power is pretty clear in history. So rather than revolt, perhaps secular conquest or plunder fits best.

Protestantism, to me, is better represented as a turning point in many nations whereby secular power exceeded the authority of the Church in traditionally religious aspects of society, even to the point of subsuming the Church, seizing her assets, and compelling the clergy to serve the interests of the state first.

Granted, it’s true that some Protestants eventually set themselves against state power after the fact. But by that time, they had already abrogated almost the entirety of the religious domain.
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Rete,
Great points above. Very few people seem to realize how much secular politics played in these matters. Of course in fairness the Church herself was not immune or separated from these issues. After all, the Church herself was a civil power and the Pope exercised much political power in addition to religious authority. I’m afraid that all too often these two things tended to come into conflict.
In some ways I think the set-up that developed in the East had certain advantages here…the Emperor remained in power as civil ruler and the Patriarch served as more exclusively a spiritual leader. Of course, this arrangement had/has some of the same problems as the protestant “state” churches that you allude to above.

I often wonder - would the Church still be in Schism if the issues of the reformation had remained spiritual instead of becoming political. 🤷

Peace
James
 
Many good points. Then they came to America, far from the reach of the King of England and the Pope. Seems to me the bias Christian thinking was never resolved here. My opinion of course no harm meant.

Personally I believe everyone needs to come home to a real Christian “state of mind”, bigger issues at the moment. We can have a family grip session after confronting the very real evils very present at the moment.

But first we need to stop persecuting each other, protestants are famous for this. 😉 I think we all need to focus on the forgiving aspect of Christianity. Seems we can’t move forward without doing so.
 
CutlerB said:
Sometimes, mostly on Catholic sites, you’ll see what is commonly called the “Protestant Reformation” referred to as either the “Protestant rebellion” or “revolt”.

Is this a common name? I’m more drawn to the “rebellion/revolt” thingy, since I don’t believe anything was “reformed”, unless you mean “twisted”.

Here in Germany, I dare call it mother country of the so-called “Reformation”, only that word is used, even by Catholics. There is no other word, though the other two “Rebellion” and “Revolte” exist, but would spark outrage if employed.

What do you call it, and why?
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It caused a splitting of the Altar…so it is a rebellion or maybe, more as a schism.

But do get a hold of the book reviewed in this article…catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0097.html

Why Only Catholicism Can Make Protestantism Work: Louis Bouyer on the Reformation
MARK BRUMLEY
Louis Bouyer contends that the only way to safeguard the positive principles of the Reformation is through the Catholic Church. For only in the Catholic Church are the positive principles the Reformation affirmed found without the negative elements the Reformers mistakenly affixed to them.
 
Reformation sounds more polite, so I use that. But sometimes I wish we were all one Church again! 🙂
 
martin luther wanted to reform the church and never wished to leave it but they kicked him out of it any way but for good reasons.most non-catholic people i know belive the refermation was a fight for freedom and it was gods will but i have a hard time beliving that simply because they split all of christinity up and now we have a lot of christians churches:)
 
bill99 said:
martin luther wanted to reform the church and never wished to leave it but they kicked him out of it any way but for good reasons.most non-catholic people i know belive the refermation was a fight for freedom and it was gods will but i have a hard time beliving that simply because they split all of christinity up and now we have a lot of christians churches:)
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There is always hope, we need to pray that all be one.
 
Catholics have historically also called it the “Reformation” while at the same time not accepting it as a good reform (and also not implying that true reform is bad.).
Bl. John Henry Newman:
Protestants speak of the “Blessed Reformation;” Catholics too talk of “the Reformation,” though they do not call it blessed. Yet every “reformation” ought, from the very meaning of the word, to be good, not bad; so that Catholics seem to be implying a eulogy on an event which, at the same time, they consider a surpassing evil. Here then they are taking the word and using it in the popular sense of it, not in the Catholic. They would say, if they expressed their full meaning, “the so-called reformation.” In like manner, if the Pope condemned “the Reformation,” it would be utterly sophistical to say in consequence that he had declared himself against all reforms
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The 'Reformation" of the Church occurred at Trent. What Luther and the other protestants did was to revolt against the authority of the church. Luther was excommunicated as was Valentinus, Sabellius, Nestorius, Arius and Henry VIII of England to name a few. Like Luther each of these started their own religion or belief system despising the authority of the church. Each of these belief systems continues in some form today.
 
Ain’t a Catholic yet but personal I refer to the event as the Protestant Reformation or Revolution interchangeably. I use Reformation more because that is what I am used to saying.
 
God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor 14:33), so Protestantism with its many conflicting groups could not have been the work of God.

We can call it the Protestant Reformation or Reformation since that is what everyone calls it, kind of like we call Constantinople Istanbul today.
 
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