Reformation part deux

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… Dialogue is not an absolute good, it is a relative good depending on the aim it is subordinated to, dialogue with other faiths and branches of christianity is ultimately a dialogue with error. In that case the only legitimate aim can be to convert those who are in error back to the truth, to suggest that the church can learn something from error is blasphemous in as much as it suggests that the church is not 'The pillar and foundation of the truth’ *1 Timothy 3:15 *and 'the spotless bride of Christ’ Ephesians 5:27. It suggests that the church must look outside of itself for part of the truth or to improve itself both of which contradict the above truths of faith.
Well I’m not Edwin, but I bet I can see what his response would be. By CATHOLIC doctrine, we know that the Church is protected from formally teaching erroneous doctrines, but is NOT protecting from stupid, abusive and repulsive behavior on the part even of those holding the office of promulgating Church teaching. What you can learn from dialogue is where you might be unintentionally leaving a basket over your light, so to speak. A famous quote from Ghandi comes to mind where he admits that this Jesus fellow is greatly appealing, but his followers not so much. In other words, Ghandi might have been converted to Christ if christians had first been more converted to Him. If the attitude you project to unbelievers is one of “Poor you, you’re dumb and ignorant and on the way to hell. You should come convert to catholicism so you can be like me.” Well, don’t expect to bear much fruit. 😦

I’m all for clear teaching and I agree that in my lifetime the errors have been on the side of excessive ambiguity. But you can be clear without being smug.
 
Thank you, and if I may offer something, in charity: So Jesus only spent his time with other Jews? He never spoke to people of other faiths? He never spoke about faith? He never spoke about faith to people of other faiths? You really think that the only discussions he had were those that specific discussions accounted for in the gospel accounts? To suggest that he never had a discussion with a person about religion isn’t anachronism it’s blatently disregarding history! He may have come for the lost sheep of Israel, but his forgiveness, message, love, and Church were open to all.
I clearly did not mean that he never spoke to people of other faiths as I stated in my post giving the examples of the samaritan and the centurion. I cannot see where you drew the statement ‘he never had a discussion with a person about religion…’ from 🤷

We should rely on historical facts not our opinions, there is no tradition or gospel on Jesus’ speaking to those of others faiths for the sake of ecumenicism or dialogue. His message let us not forget was ‘repentence, love, mercy and justice’.

Dialogue with error is for the sake of conversion, that is what Christ did in the gospels and that is what the Church has always done.
Having said that you completely gloss over or ignore the point of my post which states that this is a public message board about religion. Whether you agree with his point or not, he definitely has a right to be here and say his peace. I know plenty of people who list their religion as Catholic on this board but spout incorrect teaching. They have more of a right to share their opinion than Edwin because he lists his religion as something not Catholic?
Thats because I didn’t want to address that issue, but your reasoning for justifying it thats all. Of course non-catholics can give their view, of course we should always measure that view by Catholic standards but apart from that theres nothing wrong with it.
 
Well I’m not Edwin, but I bet I can see what his response would be. By CATHOLIC doctrine, we know that the Church is protected from formally teaching erroneous doctrines, but is NOT protecting from stupid, abusive and repulsive behavior on the part even of those holding the office of promulgating Church teaching. What you can learn from dialogue is where you might be unintentionally leaving a basket over your light, so to speak. A famous quote from Ghandi comes to mind where he admits that this Jesus fellow is greatly appealing, but his followers not so much. In other words, Ghandi might have been converted to Christ if christians had first been more converted to Him. If the attitude you project to unbelievers is one of “Poor you, you’re dumb and ignorant and on the way to hell. You should come convert to catholicism so you can be like me.” Well, don’t expect to bear much fruit. 😦

I’m all for clear teaching and I agree that in my lifetime the errors have been on the side of excessive ambiguity. But you can be clear without being smug.
That is not all how I intended it to come across, apologies if it did. That is certainly not the way I or anyone would do things, we should note however that even St Francis de La Sales ‘The Doctor of Charity’ did not hesitate to castigate those who had turned away from the Catholic faith and managed to convert some 70,000 calvinists with his sermons. (The Catholic controversy, by St Francis de La Sales). '** Live the truth in charity**, we must be prudent of course, but we cannot simply never speak of the four last things to those we are witnessing to in order to not offend them.

As for what Edwin may or may not say, I will wait till he says something but suffice to say the above response would be flawed as one looks within the church itself for cures to any abuses not to those who are outside it and in error.
 
…suffice to say the above response would be flawed as one looks within the church itself for cures to any abuses not to those who are outside it and in error.
Perhaps I will agree that the CURE must be found within revelation or at least to be consistent with it, but I’d argue that somebody from the outside still is made in the image and likeness of God (however flawed by the fall) and is capable of making reasoned criticisms at times by virtue of possessing a (marred) reflection of God’s own reason and virtue.

I’m not suggesting that we allow Ghandi to weigh in on the Immaculate Conception. But in recent years it might have been nice if a few more bishops had been reminded of the fact that just because Fr. X has confessed his sin of sexual abuse doesn’t mean he isn’t likely to do it again… That sort of thing, see?

In short, its the content of the argument and the basis from which it is argued that should be measure of the validity of criticisms. Back to the OP, I reacted the way I did because I’ve my whole life seen people attempting to use political means to change spiritual teachings and implications and I’m tired of it. It has nothing to do with the canonical status of the person making the arguments.
 
Perhaps I will agree that the CURE must be found within revelation or at least to be consistent with it, but I’d argue that somebody from the outside still is made in the image and likeness of God (however flawed by the fall) and is capable of making reasoned criticisms at times by virtue of possessing a (marred) reflection of God’s own reason and virtue.

I’m not suggesting that we allow Ghandi to weigh in on the Immaculate Conception. But in recent years it might have been nice if a few more bishops had been reminded of the fact that just because Fr. X has confessed his sin of sexual abuse doesn’t mean he isn’t likely to do it again… That sort of thing, see?

In short, its the content of the argument and the basis from which it is argued that should be measure of the validity of criticisms. Back to the OP, I reacted the way I did because I’ve my whole life seen people attempting to use political means to change spiritual teachings and implications and I’m tired of it. It has nothing to do with the canonical status of the person making the arguments.
Then we must seperate doctrinal issues from ones of justice or common sense, the sexual abuse scandal has been enormously exagerrated to permeate into all areas of church life such as doctrine and morals to which it is entirely irrelevant.
 
These things have always been under attack. From the point Jesus said to eat his flesh it was under attack. Just because some laity have different ideas doesn’t mean they will overpower the Church. Remember, we already know she survives! Certainly we must protect it, but to suggest that “liberals” are going to overrun and destroy the Church just seems like an exaggeration since she has been under attack since the day she was formed…yet 2,000 years later here She stands with the same Dogma, Doctrine, and Tradition!
Oh, I don’t think the Church will be destroyed. I do think that, unless a lot of people have an epiphany, their children won’t be inside Her any more.

Like, how many Catholics actually know the real problems with the Church; the doctrinal and practical ones? Not the sex scandals or the women priest nonsense. They never hear about Mortal Sin and Hell or that a lot of what’s tolerated in modern life is spiritually harmful.

Or put it another way:

In what way is your average Catholic in a liberal diocese not Protestant in their beliefs, in 2011?
 
Much of the problem with many disenters can be summed up by this article by H.E. Bishop Samples:
catholicworldreport.com/Item/968/lost_generations.aspx

Many, not all, but many do not know what they do not know! Catechesis is the key. One cannot be misled if you know the truth. Those who dissent without proper knowledge of their faith are easily fooled into beleiving the “modernist” positions of those who wish to usurp control of the Church from The Holy Father and the Magesterium. Those who choose to disent with full knowledge of the Churches teachings are heretics. This is nothing new. The Church has fought these types throughout Her history. Holy Mother Church will prevail.
 
Oh, I don’t think the Church will be destroyed. I do think that, unless a lot of people have an epiphany, their children won’t be inside Her any more.

Like, how many Catholics actually know the real problems with the Church; the doctrinal and practical ones? Not the sex scandals or the women priest nonsense. They never hear about Mortal Sin and Hell or that a lot of what’s tolerated in modern life is spiritually harmful.

Or put it another way:

In what way is your average Catholic in a liberal diocese not Protestant in their beliefs, in 2011?
Sadly, I have to agree with your last question especially. I know many Catholics who hold onto protestant beliefes, or at least which our Church was more “like” a protestant one.
 
If I may make some points, in all charity.

We have no evidence that Jesus spent any time with people of other faiths discussing religion and religious differences, indeed this would contradict what Christ said where he said 'And he answering, said: I was not sent but to the sheep that are lost of the house of Israel’ Matthew Chapter 15:24

Yes Jesus did speak to those of other faiths, such as the Samaritan woman (though they were an offshoot from the jews and in that conversation he corrected her) and the centurion, but in these cases he corrects their error or praises their faith, which in the case of the centurion was praising the centurions faith in him.

Reading our current obsession with ‘ecumenicism’ and ‘dialogue’ back into history is anachronism plain and simple.

Jesus’ discussion with the jewish priests and keepers of the law was again driven by the need to proclaim the truth and correct errors, not dialogue for the sake of dialogue.

This obsession with the dialogue amongst many in the modern church is exactly what has helped foster situations like the one in belgium and austria at the moment and france and the netherlands during much of the 60’s-90’s. Dialogue is not an absolute good, it is a relative good depending on the aim it is subordinated to, dialogue with other faiths and branches of christianity is ultimately a dialogue with error. In that case the only legitimate aim can be to convert those who are in error back to the truth, to suggest that the church can learn something from error is blasphemous in as much as it suggests that the church is not 'The pillar and foundation of the truth’ *1 Timothy 3:15 *and 'the spotless bride of Christ’ Ephesians 5:27. It suggests that the church must look outside of itself for part of the truth or to improve itself both of which contradict the above truths of faith.

If those in error are obstinate, we must then condemn them in order to protect the Church from them and entrust them to Gods mercy. In terms of baptised christians, this can take the form of excommunication and other eclessiastical censures. Mere dialogue will never suffice, as some people as so deeply set in their errors that they will not change their minds and thus condemnation and punishment, in the interests of justice and mercy are required. Indeed the church continously hopes that those excommunicated or otherwise censured will retract their errors and come back to embrace their loving and faithful mother. This is in fact what the church has done since the beginning, every ecumenical council from nicea to Vatican I contained canons which declared anathemas or excommunications. The Church still practices this today catholicnewsagency.com/news/vatican_supports_excommunication_of_call_to_action_group/

St Thomas Aquinas speaking on the subject says this '**It seems that heretics ought to be tolerated…

On the contrary, The Apostle says (Titus 3:10-11): “A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid: knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted.”

I answer that, With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. …

On the part of the Church, however, there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but “after the first and second admonition,” as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death. For Jerome commenting on Galatians 5:9, “A little leaven,” says: “Cut off the decayed flesh, expel the mangy sheep from the fold, lest the whole house, the whole paste, the whole body, the whole flock, burn, perish, rot, die. Arius was but one spark in Alexandria, but as that spark was not at once put out, the whole earth was laid waste by its flame.”
**

and later he states '**According to Decret. (xxiv, qu. iii, can. Notandum), “to be excommunicated is not to be uprooted.” A man is excommunicated, as the Apostle says (1 Corinthians 5:5) that his “spirit may be saved in the day of Our Lord.” **

Both these quotes are from the Summa, second part of the second part, Question 11, Article 3.

The solution to this problem is to ‘to call back the mutinous and the wandering to the bosom of the ChurchPope Leo XIII ‘Christi Nomen’ and if after dialogue, that is showing them why their errors are wrong, they still refuse, eclessiastical censure whether it be excommunication or something less severe. The church has tolerated manifest heresies such as these for far too long in the interest of false charity and ecumenicism.
Well said.
 
Thanks, I can’t do justice to St Thomas Aquinas genius and his arguments with the quote but he supports the view.
You spoke the Truth. this ecumenism has brought so much damage to the Church and has confused so many Catholics.
 
Why would you urge them to go into schism?

Don’t Catholics typically say that Luther and the others should have stayed and worked for reform from within.
As usual, great food for thought.

Thanks!!
 
**Quote:
Originally Posted by Contarini
Why would you urge them to go into schism?

Don’t Catholics typically say that Luther and the others should have stayed and worked for reform from within.
**

What reform? martin luther was called to obey the Church and not to inject his own ideas. all he had to do was to obey the Church and live a holy life, instead he did worst than the sinners in the Church. He caused a revolt against the Church nad our Lord. He caused the death and sufferings of many good Catholics.

Jesus has commanded the Church to treat those who disobey the Church as tax collector and anathema. the Church has to return to her roots and obey our Lord and cut off from her midst the rebellious men.
 
I offer this article from NCReporter for your appraisal and comment. The resemblance to luther and his theses are frightening.

ncronline.org/news/global/belgian-catholics-issue-reform-manifesto

From some of the recent headlines out of the Church in Europe, it seems a schism may be on the horizon. I wonder if any of it will cross the Atlantic?
I read the article, read the responses and then asked…what is going on in Belgium? I then searched “Catholic Belgium”…wow…what I got was reports of Sex Scandal including a Bishop raping his nephew. This article is a response to something going on in Belgium and there must be more here than what this article states and what I found out in the search…It is an opportunity to see that there are interested people in the Church voicing their opinions…opinions do not equate to action and something will happen…what I do not know…🤷
 
Saint Michael, defend us in battle.
I would rather God send down fire and destroy them and bring suffering to their families as a hard-earned lesson. I see monsters, not humans, in Europe. And I’m growing disgusted. Eventually, if things continue like this, there won’t be anything left about Catholicism worth fighting for. It’ll just be another Protestant Church.

Thank God I have a back-up.
-MontChevalier
 
I would rather God send down fire and destroy them and bring suffering to their families as a hard-earned lesson. I see monsters, not humans, in Europe. And I’m growing disgusted. Eventually, if things continue like this, there won’t be anything left about Catholicism worth fighting for. It’ll just be another Protestant Church.

Thank God I have a back-up.
-MontChevalier
Augustine was in Hippo you know and Hippo was over run by Arians…and yet the OHCAC survived. It is East/West. Wherever the OHCAC suffers because of pride it prospers elsewhere. Europe is a sad situation.
 
Augustine was in Hippo you know and Hippo was over run by Arians…and yet the OHCAC survived. It is East/West. Wherever the OHCAC suffers because of pride it prospers elsewhere. Europe is a sad situation.
And it must be dealt with. I’ll always vote to put them all to the torch. But then, that’s just me being a little overzealous. If the Catholic Church agrees to these…things, then I’ll be leaving. I obviously can’t do with having everything that has been fought for suddenly be reversed. The Gregorian Reforms must stand. Next they’ll want to buy positions in the church. :rolleyes:

I truly hope the Pope will excommunicate these heretics. Some manner of strategy must be resolved in order to put Catholicism back on the European map, but it most certainly won’t be done on their terms.

-MontChevalier
 
I would rather God send down fire and destroy them and bring suffering to their families as a hard-earned lesson. I see monsters, not humans, in Europe.
Then you need to repent and learn some charity, and stop pointing fingers at other people’s sins.

They are monsters because they fail to agree with your religious and political views?

May God have mercy on you.

Edwin
 
Then you need to repent and learn some charity, and stop pointing fingers at other people’s sins.

They are monsters because they fail to agree with your religious and political views?

May God have mercy on you.

Edwin
:rolleyes: Oh please.

Its just exaggeration most likely.
 
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