Reformation part deux

[RyanBlack]

Is it? When you help someone who doesn’t want to be helped, how does that benefit either of you? I would say that such a person is already damned. What’s left is that we just finish the job and take them to their Satan; especially considering that they want it.
Besides, in today’s world, nothing really seems to be working.

-MontChevalier

It’s not for you to say who is damned. It’s not for you to decide to send anyone to Satan. With your condemning, judgmenal statements here, you’re making a stumbling block of yourself. Why would anyone outside of the faith, or anyone who has fallen away from the faith ever want to come to the faith after reading some of what you have to say in this thread? Finally, “someone who doesn’t want to be helped” (whom you would damn to hell), may at some point in the future, by the grace of God, change his mind and turn to the faith.

 

[Contarini]

God can speak through any medium. Scripture has instances of animals, dead bodies, Roman centurions (two that come to mind). If the faithful do not declare the word, Christ said the very stones will cry out.

Precisely.

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

God can speak through any medium. Scripture has instances of animals, dead bodies, Roman centurions (two that come to mind). If the faithful do not declare the word, Christ said the very stones will cry out.

God can use heretics (and all sinners) as examples. Even the reprobate will contribute to the glory of God. However God does not Teach through heretics. That is an authority He has ordained Holy Mother Church to possess. We cannot learn any doctrine or dogma from a heretic.

Regardless… why look to someone cut off from Holy Mother Church for nourishment? If you want intellectual edification turn to the great theologians of the Church like Saint Thomas and Saint Bonaventure. Spiritual nourishment? Saint John of the Cross and Saint Alphonsus.

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

When you help someone who doesn’t want to be helped, how does that benefit either of you?

Charity is is a cardinal virtue you know… we try to help those who do not want help because we love them. Because we do not want to see them lost to eternal perdition. Because we want to lead souls to God for God.

I would say that such a person is already damned.

A man is not damned until he takes his final breath and is judged by the Word made flesh, Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Until such a time as the reprobate is made known to the righteous (the general judgement) pray for their immortal souls.

 

[CopticChristian]

It’s not for you to say who is damned. It’s not for you to decide to send anyone to Satan. With your condemning, judgmenal statements here, you’re making a stumbling block of yourself. Why would anyone outside of the faith, or anyone who has fallen away from the faith ever want to come to the faith after reading some of what you have to say in this thread? Finally, “someone who doesn’t want to be helped” (whom you would damn to hell), may at some point in the future, by the grace of God, change his mind and turn to the faith.

I have agreement with this. Look at what Paul says. Conform your thoughts to this. How can we see what you say and what Paul says as consistent?

18This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; 19Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: 20Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

 

[Boulder257]

Yes but the point is that such a decision is GOD’s to make. Once you decide to start helping him out by selecting deserving targets for Him, you’ve crossed the line.

Rule #1: He’s God, we’re not. Repeat as necessary.

Exactly!

 

[Boulder257]

Is it? When you help someone who doesn’t want to be helped, how does that benefit either of you? I would say that such a person is already damned. What’s left is that we just finish the job and take them to their Satan; especially considering that they want it.
Besides, in today’s world, nothing really seems to be working.

-MontChevalier

Did St. Monica stop praying for St. Augustine despite the fact that he appeared as far away from God as he could be? Some of the greatest minds of the Church were thought be “lost” people at one time.

 

[Boulder257]

Charity is is a cardinal virtue you know… we try to help those who do not want help because we love them. Because we do not want to see them lost to eternal perdition. Because we want to lead souls to God for God.

A man is not damned until he takes his final breath and is judged by the Word made flesh, Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Until such a time as the reprobate is made known to the righteous (the general judgement) pray for their immortal souls.

Very well said my friend!!!

 

[karaleigh]

Are Christian congregations the place to argue the methods of faith?
Using the holidays(festivals) is a sure way to get the attention of many, but holidays are not the place to say “we are not organized”.

Do parishes need the final say to salvation?
The purpose for change is to improve. Salvation will never change, it’s static. You either are or are not a believer in the Convent of Adam…thereby marked by the hand of God. Male, female, homosexual, or conduit do not append salvation.

Has governments taken the front seat in church matters when clearly the church civilized government?
Debates of hierarchical delegation of who delivers the words of faith is not a matter of personal government. But, the Vatican’s as it is their organized business. We must remember, in faith, the Catholic Church’s business structured is for the attendees i.e. the faithful. Attendees come through the doors needing God, for God is Love. We should remember that is first!

 

[CopticChristian]

Are Christian congregations the place to argue the methods of faith?
Using the holidays(festivals) is a sure way to get the attention of many, but holidays are not the place to say “we are not organized”.

Do parishes need the final say to salvation?
*The purpose for change is to improve. **Salvation will never change, it’s static. ***You either are or are not a believer in the Convent of Adam…thereby marked by the hand of God. Male, female, homosexual, or conduit do not append salvation.

Has governments taken the front seat in church matters when clearly the church civilized government?
Debates of hierarchical delegation of who delivers the words of faith is not a matter of personal government. But, the Vatican’s as it is their organized business. We must remember, in faith, the Catholic Church’s business structured is for the attendees i.e. the faithful. Attendees come through the doors needing God, for God is Love. We should remember that is first!

While I agree with most of what you say and your sentiment…to suggest that “salvation is static” equates to a one time process…a done deal. Salvation history from Adam to the return of Christ is dynamic. Salvation is ongoing and not static. To be static in your Salvation is to be dead.

 

[RyanBlack]

I have agreement with this. Look at what Paul says. Conform your thoughts to this. How can we see what you say and what Paul says as consistent?

First of all, St. Paul was an Apostle, with the authority of binding and loosing, the poster to whom I was replying is not an Apostle and has no such authority. Secondly, St. Paul was dealing with them in a way that he hoped would bring about their salvation, while the poster to whom I was replying was not. It seems to me that he was saying, “Well, they’re damned already, so let’s finish the job, execute them, and send them to hell.”

 

[karaleigh]

While I agree with most of what you say and your sentiment…to suggest that “salvation is static” equates to a one time process…a done deal. Salvation history from Adam to the return of Christ is dynamic. Salvation is ongoing and not static. To be static in your Salvation is to be dead.

Yes, the same salvation was offered to Adam as it is offered to us today. No argument! The term static used here means there is only one salvation…that is of Jesus the Christ. There is no other salvation…it is a done deal! That is the best I can say to clarify my reference to the use of the term “salvation is static”.