Reformation Sunday

[Janet1983]

It’s very simple. raumzeitmc2 holds to a conspiracy that the Lutherans at Concordia Publishing House are “afraid of going public domain with Luther’s works.” Actually, they have 20 new volumes planned, and even the volumes published don’t cover up the “real” Luther.

Here’s one thing to keep in mind Janet, based on your point about translation: the heroes that raumzeitmc2 so admires that are said to expose and refute Luther (Denifle & Grisar) wrote their books in German. So if you want to suggest one can’t really know what Luther said without reading his words in Latin and German, let’s include Denifle & Grisar as well.

While we’re at it, let’s include most of the statements coming from the Vatican as well.

What I was trying to say is this: I can read Luther’s works in the original and due to me being capable to understand several languages I know that translations are always flawed. I also know however that language does undergo a certain change over the years which has to be taken into account as well… The only language that I am familiar with that does not have the problem of development in that intense way is Latin.
Whenever we are trying to p(name removed by moderator)oint something on words in a translation we have to take into account that there are other possible translations of the same word and changes throughout time. We also have to take into account the mindset at the time it was written.
We may have a different take on things. There are things that were normal in Luther’s time that we only have scorn for in our days. There were things that were revolutionary back then and filled people with scorn that are common and normal for us today.
Any translation, as I see it, is flawed. That is probably one of the first things you notice when you learn another language. There are several translations for the English word “well” into German. Each of the translations of the word “well” in German has different translations into English, one of each being “well” of course.

During my time at school I was taught my native German, then English, then Latin and then French. With every translation important nuances are being taken away.

 

[raumzeitmc2]

TertiumQuid said:

You can hold whatever you wish, but if what you hold has no support, then perhaps you should admit it is your feeling.

But surely you don’t deny that Luther said many things which are in fact an embarrassment to Protestants?

There’s more to the world than English. Most of the volumes from WA are now on-line and public domain, for anyone to look at. English speaking people don’t determine truth for the world.

Many of Luther’s German and Latin works are now in the public domain thanks solely to the passage of time, and they are now readily accessible to a world-wide audience thanks to technology such as Google books and the Internet Archive. Lutherans had absolutely nothing to do with it.

That being said, a new volume of Luther’s Works in English came out recently, and a new volume is planned to be released each year.

Yes, I know. And I thinks that’s great!

It’s very simple. raumzeitmc2 holds to a conspiracy that the Lutherans at Concordia Publishing House are “afraid of going public domain with Luther’s works.” Actually, they have 20 new volumes planned, and even the volumes published don’t cover up the “real” Luther.

I never said Lutherans are afraid to publish Luther’s works, only that they are afraid (or embarrassed) to release to the public domain certain of his more controversial and polemical, writings. To cite but one example.

JonNC said:

And the sin of the Reformation spreads equally on both sides of it.

I’m sure the African Donatists of Augustine’s day would have said something very similar. But think about it, Jon. Is there really ever any justification for heresy or schism, or for breaking from the unity of the Church? Or must we to have a great and terrible splitting of the Church every time we find some form of corruption? No! This is not how Christ set up his ONE Church. In the words of Pope Paul VI in his encyclical letter, Ecclesiam Suam, (August 6, 1964): “Jesus Christ founded his Church to be the loving mother of all men and the dispenser of salvation….” Thus there is only ONE Church, and this One Church dispenses salvation through the Word and Sacraments, via the bishops and priests. This can never change! Source.

Mikeoffaith said:

You mean as opposed to the holy example of the papacy of Leo X?

No, I mean as opposed to the holy example of the saints, Fathers and Doctors.

The only true standard by which the whole church must be judged is the Gospel. If Luther’s reforms are consistent with the Gospel, then his reforms are valid and should be given merit.

a. Where does it say such a thing in Scripture?

b. Who is to be the judge of these matters?

c. Are Luther’s reforms consistent with “the Gospel,” in your opinion?

 

[TertiumQuid]

TertiumQuid said: But surely you don’t deny that Luther said many things which are in fact an embarrassment to Protestants?

Luther is a historical figure, warts and all. Your argument could equally be applied to the actions of many people in the Bible, yet God saw fit to leave His people a record of sinners and their sins. I’m not embarrassed by the sins recorded in the Bible when a non-Christian brings them up. Rather, it’s an opportunity to explain sin and depravity, the need for repentance, and the holiness of God. I prefer that Luther’s warts and flaws be right out in the open. It’s just one more opportunity to point out humans are to follow no man, and none is perfect except Jesus Christ. LW makes available many of Luther’s warts and flaws. Like me, they don’t worship Luther, but view him as a historical figure with warts and flaws.

Many of Luther’s German and Latin works are now in the public domain thanks solely to the passage of time, and they are now readily accessible to a world-wide audience thanks to technology such as Google books and the Internet Archive. Lutherans had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Who do you think put these volumes together? LOL, Lutherans were the ones who painstakingly compiled these volumes! They haven’t tried to cover up anything- quite the opposite, they sifted through history and tried to publish every scrap they could find. These books have always been accessible to anyone with a good college library. I’ve had access to many of the WA volumes, even before Google books, by simply getting in my car, going to the library, parking in a visitor’s parking spot, walking through the library door, and going down the isle that contains WA, and then pulling a volume off a shelf.

One cannot demand that Concordia publishing give books away for free, if so, at least be consistent, and explain why Catholic Answers doesn’t give all their published books away for free. How do you think Concordia Publishing affords being able to translate and publish new scholarly volumes of Luther’s works? Why, it’s by selling books. Are you suggesting they simply throw anything together like some of your friends and publish via Lulu?

I never said Lutherans are afraid to publish Luther’s works, only that they are afraid (or embarrassed) to release to the public domain certain of his more controversial and polemical, writings. To cite but one example.

And do you have any proof? No, you don’t. They’ve translated far worse of Luther’s writings than the example you provide, and those translations have been available for many years now. To read these things twenty years ago, one needed to simply get in a car (or walk, ride a bicycle, etc.), go to the library, park in a visitor’s parking spot, walk through the library door, and go down the isle that contains LW, and then pull a volume off a shelf.

In a file, I have your previous list (posted here on CA) of why Lutherans “could do much to put away misunderstanding, if only they weren’t so afraid of going public domain with Luther’s works.” Each of the items you list could easily be demonstrated from contexts of volumes 1-54 of Luther’s Works in English.

You stated, “the Lutherans are afraid [this information] will do irreparable damage to the cause of the reformation were they to become widely known.” This is blatantly absurd. The information you think is being suppressed hasn’t been suppressed at all. Perhaps the real problem is people now live in a modern society in which they think they’re entitled to have every bit of information at their fingertips via the Internet. Quite frankly, I still enjoy buying and reading an actual book. I still go to libraries.

If you’re so interested in a crusade to have books and documents be “public domain”, perhaps you should find an organization that does suppress documents, say like a big establishment in Rome.

 

[TobyLue]

Quick addition to the post I just made: The UK really helped matters along A LOT when they accepted something about America: Regardless of disagreements in past generations, the horse is out of the barn and it’s not coming back in for anything. **So they accepted the situation, made the best of it, **and wound up thanking the Americans for their help in both World Wars.

Based on some of the responses to this thread**, there’s some Catholics that could help things along if they do something similar.**

Here is the thing. There are many Catholics that have accepted birth control, same sex marriages, abortion, no longer belief in the Holy Eucharist, think going to Mass on Sundays is no longer necessary, every Tom,Dick, and Harry, interpreting Holy Scripture to suit their feelings, etc, which are some of the things that have happened because of the deformation and , but those things are causing more division week by week. It’s not up to the individual. The CC is NOT a democracy. The CC does not go with the opinion of the world and will NEVER, accept those things that divided the Church. Doctrine, Dogmas, can never change and will NEVER change.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Is it really necessary to say things like “deformation?” It’s not very respectful to Protestants and is too polemical. Protestants could just as easily refuse to call priests “father” or use the cheesy term “Catholischism” or a whole host of disrespectful things in the other direction that would bug all of us, too.

Here is the thing. There are many Catholics that have accepted birth control, same sex marriages, abortion, no longer belief in the Holy Eucharist, think going to Mass on Sundays is no longer necessary, every Tom,Dick, and Harry, interpreting Holy Scripture to suit their feelings, etc, which are some of the things that have happened because of the deformation and , but those things are causing more division week by week. It’s not up to the individual. The CC is NOT a democracy. The CC does not go with the opinion of the world and will NEVER, accept those things that divided the Church. Doctrine, Dogmas, can never change and will NEVER change.

 

[raumzeitmc2]

Luther is a historical figure, warts and all. Your argument could equally be applied to the actions of many people in the Bible, yet God saw fit to leave His people a record of sinners and their sins.

Very true. So why do you go ballistic when someone actually points out Luther’s sins, especially when you yourself never cease your crusade against the sins of Catholic Popes and clergy?

Who do you think put these volumes together? LOL, Lutherans were the ones who painstakingly compiled these volumes! They haven’t tried to cover up anything

But most of this stuff is still very much unknown.

These books have always been accessible to anyone with a good college library.

But few are aware of them or their significance.

One cannot demand that Concordia publishing give books away for free.

Of course not! But given the enormous historical significance of the Reformation, shouldn’t the Lutheran church at least translate and place in the public domain and online the full text of Luther’s most controversial writings, many of which, as the Lutherans themselves now freely admit, have been historically “hidden with embarrassment.” See the introduction to Luther’s Table Talk (vol. 54). Full intro here. Source.

And more…

“How, then, can Protestants designate Luther as “more than a Saint, and the greatest of Germans, the strongest, deepest, richest spirit of the Christian Church”? … It is to be explained only by the fact that … the average reader learns only of the legendary Luther, whose carefully expurgated words and writings are alone quoted."Source.

“Some of the modern editions of Luther’s works have been greatly expurgated by his admirers.” Source.

The information you think is being suppressed hasn’t been suppressed at all.

“His [Luther’s] acknowledged weaknesses were represented as evidences of his robust strength, his faults as excellencies, and his vices as virtues. The coarseness and vulgarity, the passion and brutality and obscenity, which constantly come to view in his writings, were systematically suppressed, and detached sentences and paragraphs expressive of pious thought, were gathered and carefully put together, in order to furnish proofs of his virtuous and devout habit of life.

“Thus, the old traditionary falsehood respecting Luther was perpetuated in the public mind, and the truth suppressed. This was all the more easily done, because the vulgarity, the profanity and obscenity of Luther’s habitual utterances so thoroughly permeate most of his works, that, to publish a faithful translation of them in the English language is impossible, without subjecting both the translator and the publisher to condemnation by the law of the State, as well as by the law of common decency.” Source.

Perhaps the real problem is people now live in a modern society in which they think they’re entitled to have every bit of information at their fingertips via the Internet.

Would be nice!

Quite frankly, I still enjoy buying and reading an actual book. I still go to libraries.

Yep, same here!

If you’re so interested in a crusade to have books and documents be “public domain”, perhaps you should find an organization that does suppress documents, say like a big establishment in Rome.

Read for example, Ludwig Pastor’s works!

“… no author as yet has written the history of the Popes with such copious evidence, drawn, not only from the Vatican Archives since they were thrown open by Leo XIII., but from a multitude of other sources hitherto never examined…" Source.

And another book, especially what is said about Fr. Denifle (whom you seem to think is so one-sided) in the second paragraph on p. 131. Source.

But you know all this, as I’ve pointed much of it out to you before. So now you’ve got plenty of material for your next few blog posts!

 

[Mikeoffaith]

But the question Jon is this: on what authority do such men “reform”? And should not men reform themselves first before trying to reform others? That’s what I’ve always been told.

Then one can ask the question, shouldn’t the papacy have faith and morals before teaching infallibly on faith and morals?

 

[JonNC]

Is it really necessary to say things like “deformation?” It’s not very respectful to Protestants and is too polemical. Protestants could just as easily refuse to call priests “father” or use the cheesy term “Catholischism” or a whole host of disrespectful things in the other direction that would bug all of us, too.

You know, gurney, I used the term “deformation” first in this thread, and it is a deformation IF:

1. Lutherans ( I won’t speak for others) become comfortable in division and schism, and do not reach out in dialogue and prayer to heal the rift between us. There are Lutherans who take the same kind of stance as some Catholics here, using the history of the Reformation era like a club to beat Rome over the head with. Some are sadly in my LCMS.
2. The Catholic Church become comfortable in schism and division, and her members practice a triumphalist approach, which frankly didn’t work for 450 years. We have seen some Catholics here use the same club-over-the-head approach as some Lutherans.
3. we fail to recognize the Holy Spirit in each other, and realize the sin of our ancestors on both sides can either be overcome with the help of the Holy Spirit, or perpetuated in our own sin.

Lutherans and other Protestants committed great brutality in the name of Christ. Catholics committed great brutality in the name of Christ. Both are true. Neither modern Catholics nor modern Lutherans are responsible for these brutalities. Without great effort, both can end up being responsible for continuing the sin of separation of Christ’s Church, a truly great sin, indeed. And in this sense, both would be guilty of deformation.

Jon

 

[raumzeitmc2]

Then one can ask the question, shouldn’t the papacy have faith and morals before teaching infallibly on faith and morals?

What does Jesus say?

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. Matt. 23

Christ, though warning against bad churchmen, never permitted the breaking of the unity of the Church on their account; rather, he insisted on the necessity of obedience to lawful superiors, those who dispense eternal salvation: “be careful to do everything they tell you.”

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

True to 1, agree wholeheartedly on 2, and amen on 3! Awesome post as usual, Jon.

P.S. conference time in a couple weeks, crunch time in these parts…eesh!

You know, gurney, I used the term “deformation” first in this thread, and it is a deformation IF:

1. Lutherans ( I won’t speak for others) become comfortable in division and schism, and do not reach out in dialogue and prayer to heal the rift between us. There are Lutherans who take the same kind of stance as some Catholics here, using the history of the Reformation era like a club to beat Rome over the head with. Some are sadly in my LCMS.
2. The Catholic Church become comfortable in schism and division, and her members practice a triumphalist approach, which frankly didn’t work for 450 years. We have seen some Catholics here use the same club-over-the-head approach as some Lutherans.
3. we fail to recognize the Holy Spirit in each other, and realize the sin of our ancestors on both sides can either be overcome with the help of the Holy Spirit, or perpetuated in our own sin.

Lutherans and other Protestants committed great brutality in the name of Christ. Catholics committed great brutality in the name of Christ. Both are true. Neither modern Catholics nor modern Lutherans are responsible for these brutalities. Without great effort, both can end up being responsible for continuing the sin of separation of Christ’s Church, a truly great sin, indeed. And in this sense, both would be guilty of deformation.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Thanks, gurney.

BTW, congrats on last night. I’m surprised you haven’t changed your signature yet!!

Jon

True to 1, agree wholeheartedly on 2, and amen on 3! Awesome post as usual, Jon.

P.S. conference time in a couple weeks, crunch time in these parts…eesh!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’ve been in a euphoria. Kate and I woke up this morning and I almost thought I dreamed the last two weeks or so. I’m still on a funky natural baseball high. Haven’t been this happy in years about sports. One of the best moments of my life for sure. All the fans at work are so stoked it’s not funny. We all wore our gear to work. I did my crossing guard duty in full Giants jersey today. I got plenty of salutes! It takes guts to wear Giants gear at our school. Our school is primarily Dodger Country. My principal lives at Chavez Ravine in summers! She’s a die-hard Dodger-blue Tommy LaSorda crumb! But even the Dodger fans were pulling for the Giants as they were the California team there and nobody wants Texas!

Thanks for reminding me about the signature! You created a Frankenstein!

Thanks, gurney.

BTW, congrats on last night. I’m surprised you haven’t changed your signature yet!!

Jon