Reformation

[JOL]

Matthew 24:23-25 (New American Standard Bible)
23"(A)Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.
24"For false Christs and (B)false prophets will arise and will show great (C)signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even (D)the elect.
25"Behold, I have told you in advance.

I was watching EWTN last week and there was a show concerning Heresies hosted by a priest from the Diocese of Scranton, PA. I cannot remember his name. Anyway, he was talking about “false Christs coming to sway the elect” and it made me think of the entire Reformation. In my lapsed Catholic days I thought of the Catholic church as fitting into this category, being the “false prophet” with great signs and wonders, etc. When I was listening to this priest however and realizing that the Catholic church is the only church/religion that goes all the way back to Christ they couldn’t be the “false Christ” that arose. Do you think the Reformation fits this verse though. I am not saying the people in the Protestant denominations aren’t true Christ seeking Christians, they have however been swayed away (broke away) from the Catholic church in the Reformation (right?). If that is accurate wouldn’t it be safe to say that the 40,000 odd protestant denominations is a fulfillment of this Scripture?

I sure hope this isn’t offensive to anyone, it is seriously my question and what I have been thinking about lately. If anyone finds this offensive I apologize in advance.

[SIGN]God bless[/SIGN]
JOL

 

[wisdomseeker]

Matthew 24:23-25 (New American Standard Bible)
23"(A)Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.
24"For false Christs and (B)false prophets will arise and will show great (C)signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even (D)the elect.
25"Behold, I have told you in advance.

I was watching EWTN last week and there was a show concerning Heresies hosted by a priest from the Diocese of Scranton, PA. I cannot remember his name. Anyway, he was talking about “false Christs coming to sway the elect” and it made me think of the entire Reformation. In my lapsed Catholic days I thought of the Catholic church as fitting into this category, being the “false prophet” with great signs and wonders, etc. When I was listening to this priest however and realizing that the Catholic church is the only church/religion that goes all the way back to Christ they couldn’t be the “false Christ” that arose. Do you think the Reformation fits this verse though. I am not saying the people in the Protestant denominations aren’t true Christ seeking Christians, they have however been swayed away (broke away) from the Catholic church in the Reformation (right?). If that is accurate wouldn’t it be safe to say that the 40,000 odd protestant denominations is a fulfillment of this Scripture?

I sure hope this isn’t offensive to anyone, it is seriously my question and what I have been thinking about lately. If anyone finds this offensive I apologize in advance.

[SIGN]God bless[/SIGN]
JOL

If they believe on their enterpretation of the Bible which pretty much is the opposite of the CC, i wouldnt be surprised.

2***".When, therefore, our Lord Jesus Christ shall come and, as the apostle Paul says, bring to light things hidden in darkness and make plain the secrets of the heart, so that everyone may receive his commendation from God, then lamps will no longer be needed. When that day is at hand, the prophet will not be read to us, the book of the Apostle will not be opened, we shall not require the testimony of John, we shall have no need of the Gospel itself. Therefore all Scriptures will be taken away from us, those Scriptures which in the night of this world burned like lamps so that we might not remain in darkness."[32] St. Augustine***

 

[JonNC]

Matthew 24:23-25 (New American Standard Bible)
23"(A)Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.
24"For false Christs and (B)false prophets will arise and will show great (C)signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even (D)the elect.
25"Behold, I have told you in advance.

I was watching EWTN last week and there was a show concerning Heresies hosted by a priest from the Diocese of Scranton, PA. I cannot remember his name. Anyway, he was talking about “false Christs coming to sway the elect” and it made me think of the entire Reformation. In my lapsed Catholic days I thought of the Catholic church as fitting into this category, being the “false prophet” with great signs and wonders, etc. When I was listening to this priest however and realizing that the Catholic church is the only church/religion that goes all the way back to Christ they couldn’t be the “false Christ” that arose. Do you think the Reformation fits this verse though. I am not saying the people in the Protestant denominations aren’t true Christ seeking Christians, they have however been swayed away (broke away) from the Catholic church in the Reformation (right?). If that is accurate wouldn’t it be safe to say that the 40,000 odd protestant denominations is a fulfillment of this Scripture?

I sure hope this isn’t offensive to anyone, it is seriously my question and what I have been thinking about lately. If anyone finds this offensive I apologize in advance.

[SIGN]God bless[/SIGN]
JOL

Hi JOL,
No offense taken. just a question; what “great signs and wonders” have you seen either in the reformation era churches, or those that have followed? If there haven’t been any, then the question you pose is mute.

Jon

 

[rpp]

I think the series you are referring to is The Great Heresies hosted by Father Thomas(?) Conner. I have been watching it and find it very informative.

One way to learn about what is authentic Catholic teaching is to understand what is not correct teaching.

I believe you may have a point about “false teachers arising”. Clearly not all the reformers could be correct. Even they themselves knew that.

However, I believe that this “false teachers” and “false Christs” reference can be applied not just to one particular period, but rather a general caution and a warning that we must always be alert.

 

[JOL]

Hi JOL,
No offense taken. just a question; what “great signs and wonders” have you seen either in the reformation era churches, or those that have followed? If there haven’t been any, then the question you pose is mute.

Jon

Maybe one “wonder/sign” would be the Benny Hinn type croud of miraculous healers (for a nominal fee) or the holiness movement with their speaking in tongues, etc.

 

[JOL]

I think the series you are referring to is The Great Heresies hosted by Father Thomas(?) Conner. I have been watching it and find it very informative.

One way to learn about what is authentic Catholic teaching is to understand what is not correct teaching.

I believe you may have a point about “false teachers arising”. Clearly not all the reformers could be correct. Even they themselves knew that.

However, I believe that this “false teachers” and “false Christs” reference can be applied not just to one particular period, but rather a general caution and a warning that we must always be alert.

I definitely agree, “we must always be alert”, but I don’t think what I have said applies to just the reformers in one period in time. After all, at the reformation it was only the start of new denomination after new denomination. Even today new churches with different beliefs are springing up. All claiming to read the same bible, yet they cannot agree. Even within the protestant circles there are those (i.e. Fundamentalist) who even believe they are the only ones who interpret Scripture accurately and that all others (protestant or Catholic) are wrong.

This is one of the things I really appreciate about the Catholic church, it is truly one body of believers. I can walk into any Catholic church and experiance the same thing as I do in my home church. I will even hear the same Gospel message I would in either church. Yet in the protestant churches you will never hear the same message or read the same Scriptures on any given Sunday in different churches. You may visit another church and end up finding their belief is completely different than the one in your own church; you cannot walk into any Baptist church and experiance the same thing, every different protestant church’s message or style is slanted to -their own way-…I am glad that isn’t the case with the Catholic church.

Now, this isn’t a grip against protestant churches, I do believe they are believers, Christ loving believers just as I am…this is just my observation and what I have been thinking in regards to “false teachers swaying even the elect”.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Matthew 24:23-25 (New American Standard Bible)
23"(A)Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.
24"For false Christs and (B)false prophets will arise and will show great (C)signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even (D)the elect.
25"Behold, I have told you in advance.

I was watching EWTN last week and there was a show concerning Heresies hosted by a priest from the Diocese of Scranton, PA. I cannot remember his name. Anyway, he was talking about “false Christs coming to sway the elect” and it made me think of the entire Reformation. In my lapsed Catholic days I thought of the Catholic church as fitting into this category, being the “false prophet” with great signs and wonders, etc. When I was listening to this priest however and realizing that the Catholic church is the only church/religion that goes all the way back to Christ they couldn’t be the “false Christ” that arose. Do you think the Reformation fits this verse though. I am not saying the people in the Protestant denominations aren’t true Christ seeking Christians, they have however been swayed away (broke away) from the Catholic church in the Reformation (right?). If that is accurate wouldn’t it be safe to say that the 40,000 odd protestant denominations is a fulfillment of this Scripture?

I sure hope this isn’t offensive to anyone, it is seriously my question and what I have been thinking about lately. If anyone finds this offensive I apologize in advance.

[sign]God bless[/sign]
JOL

No, because the identification is based on a logical fallacy, of the following form:.​

Your logic goes:

• Christ prophecied a falling away
• The Reformation is a falling away
• therefore Christ prophecied the Reformation
  There are problems with this:

There have been many fallings away in the first 1400 hundred years of the Church - so why choose that particular one ?

Your argument depends on reasoning backwards from something you’re aware of (the Reformation) to something else you’re aware of (the prophecy by Christ). That type of reasoning establishes only that one is of aware of two things: what it does not & cannot establish, is that Christ meant to refer to the later of those things.

So: English football is a sport - US football is a sport. It does not follow that they are the same sport, or that they share anything beyond the name. Jonah is the name of a character in a “Spiderman” comic - & Jonah is the name of an OT prophet. the identity in name does not prove identity of the persons named. The reasoning in your argument identifies the Reformation with what Christ prophecied - & is vulnerable on account of the thinking just described.

That’s one of the problems with reading Biblical texts as predictions of the present: the fact that something is able to be read as a description of a particular time, is no reason to suppose that that particular time “must have” been intended. It does not follow that because an OT prophet speaks in words that can be read as a description of motor-cars or electicity that he is prophecying of either. People confuse compatibility with intention. That’s how some people “prove” that the USA is mentioned in the Bible - it’s important & powerful, so it must be. As though there were no nations known to Israel that were important & powerful in their day !

Related to this is a further objection: X looks like Antichrist - therefore, X is the Antichrist. This has been said of Napoleon, Hitler, Ronald Reagan, & a host of others - & always by people living at the same time as the person identified. Never before: no one said in 1850, “The great Antichrist RR will arise in the 1980s…” There were no mediaeval predictions of Napoleon. The fallacy is that people look no further than when they live: the AC is never hundreds of years in the future; it is always the present that is the worst of times, the time of tribulation, the time very shortly indeed before Jesus returns. And these prophecies are always wrong; which brings the Bible into great dishonour As the prophecies depend on the identifications, the problem is with the latter: they may not like Luther or the Pope: but they have no way of knowing whether God agrees. He might not agree at all.

Such interpretations fail to allow for two possibilities:

• things may greatly improve
• fulfilment may come only in the distant future
  IOW - people don’t allow for “unknown unknowns”. That the Pope, or the Reformation, or Islam or whatever it may be, can be seen as Something Jesus Warned Against, tells us more about human ideas & psychology than about what Jesus is speaking of

As to the meaning of the texts - there is no sound reason to imagine that Jesus was talking about the squabbles between Christians at all. The idea reads our concerns into the text, when it should be applying the text to our concerns.

Hope that helps

 

[rien]

Matthew 24:23-25 (New American Standard Bible)
23"(A)Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.
24"For false Christs and (B)false prophets will arise and will show great (C)signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even (D)the elect.
25"Behold, I have told you in advance.

I was watching EWTN last week and there was a show concerning Heresies hosted by a priest from the Diocese of Scranton, PA. I cannot remember his name. Anyway, he was talking about “false Christs coming to sway the elect” and it made me think of the entire Reformation. In my lapsed Catholic days I thought of the Catholic church as fitting into this category, being the “false prophet” with great signs and wonders, etc. When I was listening to this priest however and realizing that the Catholic church is the only church/religion that goes all the way back to Christ they couldn’t be the “false Christ” that arose. Do you think the Reformation fits this verse though. I am not saying the people in the Protestant denominations aren’t true Christ seeking Christians, they have however been swayed away (broke away) from the Catholic church in the Reformation (right?). If that is accurate wouldn’t it be safe to say that the 40,000 odd protestant denominations is a fulfillment of this Scripture?

I sure hope this isn’t offensive to anyone, it is seriously my question and what I have been thinking about lately. If anyone finds this offensive I apologize in advance.

[SIGN]God bless[/SIGN]
JOL

My thoughts?

I think the Reformation was influenced by satan. Luther had valid points. The church haad fallen into corruption. As ancient Israel did many times.

But did the faithful Jews break away from Israel/the Covenant and start their own religion? No. They remained in the Old Covenant as Martin Luther should have remained in the New.

He could have been a great reformer within the church like many Catholics who rose up shortly after him and brought renewal to the church while remaining in it.

You need to look at the fruits of the Reformation. I think 40,000 is too high a figure. But there are certainly now 25,000 Chritian denominations. many of them basically new religions - like the LDS, JW, Christian Scientists.

Sadly, as posted on another thread, the German Lutheran church - this is the official body and direct heir to Luther - may be about to recognize practicing homosexuals as consistent with the Chritian faith and eligible for the bishopric.

The corruption of the Catholic church came and went, and has come and gone again several times. But today it preaches a faith that Luther himself would be more at home with than the faith his breakaway Lutheranism is moving towards.

As I said, the fruit of the Reformation will be there for all to see if German Lutherans embrace practicing gay bishops. Gay marriage recognition will inevitably follow IMO.

 

[JonNC]

The corruption of the Catholic church came and went, and has come and gone again several times. But today it preaches a faith that Luther himself would be more at home with than the faith his breakaway Lutheranism is moving towards.

As I said, the fruit of the Reformation will be there for all to see if German Lutherans embrace practicing gay bishops. Gay marriage recognition will inevitably follow IMO.

I"m afraid you may be right.
Jon

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

My thoughts?

I think the Reformation was influenced by satan. Luther had valid points. The church haad fallen into corruption. As ancient Israel did many times.

But did the faithful Jews break away from Israel/the Covenant and start their own religion? No. They remained in the Old Covenant as Martin Luther should have remained in the New.

He could have been a great reformer within the church like many Catholics who rose up shortly after him and brought renewal to the church while remaining in it.

You need to look at the fruits of the Reformation. I think 40,000 is too high a figure. But there are certainly now 25,000 Chritian denominations. many of them basically new religions - like the LDS, JW, Christian Scientists.

This assumes things that need to be established first - including these:​

• that the CC was a tabula rasa before the Reformation
• that “fruits” must be understood as bad fruits
  Otherwise, the CC can perfectly well have things in it from what is present in Lutheranism, & be, not better, or worse, but only different.

Leaving the Reformation aside for the moment, it is not clear that (say) an authoritarian Christianity is “better than” one that is established. Some Christianities are both, some are neither; merely to have a quality that may be bad from some POVs does not mean that a Christianity free of or lacking that quality is better,or worse; it is different. The value judgements are added by the person with the POV; they are not inherent in the Christianity being described.

So the making of judgements about Christianities or other faiths than one’s own is anything but a simple matter.

As for the “fruits” argument - it depends on what fruits one sees; & on what weight one allows them in one’s argument. It is a very uncertain argument, because it depends on the biases of the arguer, who can see only part of the picture, & only that part which is manifested. This is why 1 Samuel 16.7 is so important.

Sadly, as posted on another thread, the German Lutheran church - this is the official body and direct heir to Luther - may be about to recognize practicing homosexuals as consistent with the Chritian faith and eligible for the bishopric.

The corruption of the Catholic church came and went, and has come and gone again several times. But today it preaches a faith that Luther himself would be more at home with than the faith his breakaway Lutheranism is moving towards.

As I said, the fruit of the Reformation will be there for all to see if German Lutherans embrace practicing gay bishops. Gay marriage recognition will inevitably follow IMO.