Reformed debate (long! please help!)

[Christian_Unity]

Christian Unity;10397616:

Right…as I said before…it boils down to a question of authority…and one’s interpretation of scripture…which interpretation one adheres too…and which authority one adheres to.

Reformed interpretation is based from Calvin…which is based on his own authority.

calledtocommunion.com/2009/07/ecclesial-deism/

He adopts a pick-and-choose approach. This approach attempts to avoid the dilemma raised above by methodologically, though not explicitly, counting as ‘traditional’ [as in “traditional Christian orthodoxy”] only whatever the Church said and did that agrees with or is at least compatible with one’s own interpretation of Scripture. ‘Tradition’ becomes whatever one agrees with in the history of the Church, such as the Nicene Creed or Chalcedonian Christology.

This pick-and-choose approach to the tradition shows that it is not the fact that an Ecumenical Council declared something definitively that makes it ‘authoritative’ for Mohler. What makes it ‘authoritative’ for Mohler is that it agrees with his interpretation of Scripture. If he encounters something in the tradition that seems extra-biblical or opposed to Scripture he rejects it. For that reason, tradition does not authoritatively guide his interpretation. His interpretation picks out what counts as tradition, and then this tradition informs his interpretation.

It is my understanding that there are only 15 Bible verses that are dogmatically interpreted for you as Catholics.

 

[paperclip]

I’m reading everything you guys are posting and it’s all incredibly useful. Thanks a million! It’s interesting seeing the debate develop here as it’s helping me understand possible future turns our conversation could take. God bless the great work!

 

[rfournier103]

pablope;10397653:

It is my understanding that there are only 15 Bible verses that are dogmatically interpreted for you as Catholics.

Gonna reply to post # 51 or what? Maybe you’d care to join us on the **Bible being the Sole Authority?? ** thread in “Non-Catholic Religions”?

I’m reading everything you guys are posting and it’s all incredibly useful. Thanks a million! It’s interesting seeing the debate develop here as it’s helping me understand possible future turns our conversation could take. God bless the great work!

You’re welcome! Contrary to what some will tell you, there is more than enough to support you in your debate in the Bible. Please look at the link I sent you via private message. You will find it invaluable.

 

[Christian_Unity]

I’m reading everything you guys are posting and it’s all incredibly useful. Thanks a million! It’s interesting seeing the debate develop here as it’s helping me understand possible future turns our conversation could take. God bless the great work!

If you want to understand the Reformed Faith to anticipate the debates ahead of time, I would study reformed.org and monergism.com. There’s a 500 year history of what divides us; therefore, the issues are not as simple in how some try to make it on this thread. The summary of the Reformed view can be found in the 5 solas of the Protestant reformation.

 

[De_Maria]

1. Grace by the Sacraments

I think I perfectly understand “ex opere operato”. The Roman doctrine is that God ALWAYS works grace in the sacraments such that every recipient receives grace by them. Yet, the disposition of the recipient can resist this grace (or the fruit of it). This is why they claim that every baby baptised is regenerated, since they can’t conceive of a baby resisting the sacramental grace in that case.

I don’t see anything wrong with that understanding.

This is exactly the same view as many who claim to be “Reformed” who teach a conditional covenant according to a theology they call the “Federal Vision”. Many of these, for the sake of consistency have already crossed the Tiber back to Rome.

If you say so.

But the Reformed faith utterly rejects the idea of "resistible grace”.

Then the Reformed faith utterly rejects the Word of God in Scripture. Because Scripture is clear that men can resist the grace of God. As it is written:

1 Corinthians 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

2 Corinthians 6:1
We then, as workers together with him,** beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.**

Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

We agree that people try to resist the power of God, but they cannot do so effectually/successfully. If God wills to confer grace to a person, such that they bear gracious fruit, it will be done.

God wills to confer grace upon every person:
Matthew 5:45
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

And God has no pleasure and therefore does not will anyone to come to a wicked end:
Ezekiel 18:23-25
King James Version (KJV)
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

Therefore, Scripture is clear that men can resist the grace of God.

We believe, according to our earliest creed, that God is Almighty. “But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased” (Psalm 115:3).

We also believe that God is Almighty. And we believe that God has pleased to give man a free will so that they might choose their own destiny:
Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before youlife and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

So we believe that God is gracious only ever to the elect.

We believe that God is gracious to all. And that some reject the grace of God:
Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

If a reprobate hears the preaching or receives a sacrament, God does not give or offer him any grace thereby. Instead God works through that preaching or sacrament a curse, hardening of heart, and condemnation.

You are confused.

1. If a sinner hears the preaching of the Gospel, he has a choice. He may repent or he may remain in his sins:

Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

1. But if a sinner receives a sacrament without first repenting, then that sinner will be condemned. As it is written:
   Mark 16:16
   King James Version (KJV)
   16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

And also:

1 Corinthians 11:28-30
King James Version (KJV)
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

At that point, they become reprobate. By their actions they have condemned themselves.
Hebrews 6:4-6
King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Whether they can be saved is difficult to answer. But for God all things are possible.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

But with the elect, God uses the preaching to work faith in our hearts, and He strengthens that faith by means of the sacraments. This is why I said, only those who have faith can benefit from the sacraments.

This is true.

But this is the faith which God supplies by His irresistible grace.

This is false. God does not force anyone to love Him. God draws men to Himself. God does not force us to come to Him.

2 Thessalonians 2:15-17
King James Version (KJV)
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

We believe that we need irresistible grace because we know that by nature there is no good thing in us since the Fall of Adam.

That is your first and worst error. There is much good in man. If there wasn’t, there would be no hope of salvation. Because God hates the wicked.

Psalm 72:7
In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.

That is why we say that Rome’s teaching of resistible grace and her teaching on “free-will” is a denial of the Fall.

Say what you will, but you are merely demonstrating your right to choose right from wrong. God gave you the choice to accept His Church or reject it. You have exercised your will in doing so.

The Church of God teaches His Wisdom:
Ephesians 3:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

And in its stead, you are replacing your own understanding.

So, we are back to the key point of difference, the hinge on which all turns.

Very good. I stand with the Church which Scripture calls the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15).

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

2a. Sin and Justice

Rome denies God’s infinite holiness and justice when it claims that God’s mercy can allow Him to neglect these. The same claim is made by all religions which deny Christ’s atoning sacrifice as the only basis for the forgiveness of sins (e.g. Islam). God’s mercy, like all of His attributes (e.g. love, grace, goodness), is one with all His other attributes. His perfect mercy is also perfectly just and holy. He is not more merciful than He is just, or more loving than He is holy. He is perfectly and completely, in simplicity, all His divine attributes. So, He cannot and will not, according to His justice because He cannot deny Himself, punish any sin with anything less than eternal torment in hell.

That doesn’t make sense for many reasons. For one thing, every sin is a sin against God. Therefore, if a child steals a penny, that child has sinned against God. According to your theology, that child must now spend eternity in hell.

However, true justice says that this child will be punished “according to his works”. The evil which was committed was minimal. Therefore a slight punishment is all which is due.

Human justice works in this way and human justice is not more just than God. God punishes and rewards according to one’s works:
Revelation 22:12
King James Version (KJV)
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

And this is why, when the eternal state of the wicked in hell is described, it says (Revelation 21:8; cf. 21:27; 22:15), "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

That is true. But that is a reference to impenitent and unrepentant sinners. That is not a reference to men who have repented from their sins.

But it is also not true that anyone will be condemned for simply a lie.

Now you are contradicting yourself.

Our whole nature has become totally depraved since the Fall, so that even if we do not do every concievable sin (on account of external restraints such as fear of punishment, societal pressure, self-righteous pride, seeking the praise of men), we are still inclined to all wickedness, and given the right circumstances actually do it too (Romans 3:10-20).

Romans 3:10-20 is about men who deny God. If every person had turned away from God, there would be no Scriptures. There would be no prophets and there would be no one in heaven.

But it is fools who have denied God which have become completely reprobate:
Psalm 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

These are they who do no good and eat up the people of God. Read the entire Psalm. These are they to which St. Paul refers.

All are guilty before God, and liable to the punishment of eternal torment in hell (“the second death”).

All who have sinned. But not those who have not sinned. As you said, infants place no resistance before the grace of God. They have not sinned. And many more are righteous and workers of good deeds before God. They shall be found just in the eyes of God:

Romans 2:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Matthew 25 also describes the judgement of Christ on the Last Day and makes perfectly clear that the punishment will be “everlasting” (v. 46).

For those who do not choose to do good during their life. Read the entire parable from Matt 25:31-46.

He also makes clear that Christ first divides the entire human race into sheep and goats, and mentions their works not as the legal basis for their eternal destination, but as public evidence (since God causes His sinful sheep to begin to bear godly fruit in this life).

You are reading all that into the Scripture. But the Scripture makes none of the hair splitting distinctions which you make.

It is clear and evident in that Parable that the Sheep are saved BECAUSE of what they do. And the Goats are punished eternally BECAUSE of what they failed to do.

Let us read the details:
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Jesus first turns to the Sheep and says, “Come and receive your reward.”

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

“because when I was hungry, you gave me food and when I was thirsty, you gave me drink, etc. etc.”

It is obvious then that they are saved BECAUSE of their good deeds.

and when the Sheep ask, “when did we see you?” Jesus confirms what He just said:
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Inasmuch is a term meaning “in the degree”, “as far as”. The reward is in the same rate as the work performed. The reward is here tied to the work.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

Now, lets turn to the Goats:

**41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.**

We see exactly the same thing in reverse. Jesus condemns them BECAUSE when they saw Him hungered, thirsty, a stranger, naked, sick and imprisoned, they did nothing to help.

And they are surprised because they don’t remember seeing him. And He repeats again.

45*Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, INASMUCH as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

INASMUCH, to the degree that you did not help your neighbors, you denied me.

And Jesus again ties it to their works. In this case, to their neglect of doing good works.

And the sheep, so conscious of their sins and unworthiness, think that they have not done such godly works, whereas the wicked goats think they have not neglected them. So, Rome not only denies God’s justice here, but it also denies the corruption of man, and the sinfulness of sin.

Nope. All that is evident is that you twist the Scriptures to your own destruction:
eter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Because the lesson of Matt 25 is clear and evident and it takes a LOT OF TWISTING to change the conclusion. And that lesson is taught throughout Scripture, from one end to the other. As it is written:

Revelation 22:12-15
King James Version (KJV)
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Yes sir, it takes a lot of twisting to do what you just did.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Porknpie]

Thanks so much for your help so far! I really appreciate it. Currently we’re discussing the magisterium and free will… here is his last comment.

And the question of authority is more fundamental (and really determinative) to ascertaining the truth about the will of fallen mankind.

Because, at least according to the official stance, Rome claims that Scripture is authoritative, that means I can argue from that basis (which you also hold to be authoritative) in order to demonstrate that Rome’s Tradition and Magisterium is inconsistent with Scripture. I can also argue on the basis of the ancient creeds which the Reformed churches hold as authoritative as they correctly systematise and summarise the teaching of Scripture, as well as from wherever the early church fathers and Christian teachers speak according to Scripture, yet contrary to Rome’s Tradition.

Your task then, apart from showing how Rome’s Tradition and Magisterium do not contradict Scripture, would be to demonstrate from the authority which we hold to (Scripture) either why the Reformed interpretation is wrong, or why holding it alone as authoritative is inconsistent with itself, or how it in itself proves the validity of Rome’s Tradition and Magisterium. The first would be enough to disprove to me our position, the second would only disprove to me the basis of our authority (but not establish an alternative), and the third would prove to me Rome’s authority.

I posit that you cannot prove from Scripture itself that it teaches any other authority besides itself available to us today by which we can prove what is true and what is not concerning the Christian faith. Scripture describes itself as the very breathed out words of God and written by holy prophets who were carried along by the Holy Spirit as a ship is carried by the wind. It describes nothing else in anywhere even close to those terms. Further, it says that the apostles and prophets are in the foundation of the church, by which we know that all prophecy, direct authoritative revelation, has ceased. Furthermore (and this is the clincher, and was so in the Reformation), Scripture itself speaks of its sufficiency:

II Timothy 3:15-17
“And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”

It is this sufficiency of Scripture (not merely its authority) which determines that questions regarding our faith and salvation can be resolved by its authority alone. So, you may claim that Rome’s Tradition and Magisterium are also authoritative, and I may deny that, but regardless, Scripture itself teaches that it is sufficient for this purposes of this discussion.

Scripture on its own is able to make us “wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus”, and it “is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be PERFECT, THOROUGHLY furnished unto ALL good works.”

It has this power or attribute of sufficiency precisely because it is the word of God Himself, and as Christ said, “My words are spirit and life.”

Considering this, we will not be speaking at cross purposes, past each other, or at an impasse, but we can really deal with the issue.

I think you need to…have him send you his church’s profession of faith. Then…post it here.

There needs to be balance here. He’s covering way too much…a sea of objections…which on its own is a trickery…while there are answers for all his questions, don’t let him do this.

Need to play fair. Just like in grade school.

Take turns.

One question deserves another

After you answer his one question one…you then get to ask him a question. :extrahappy:

What you think? Get his profession of faith from his church as a starter…post it here an you’ll be guided on what to ask him…

 

[Christian_Unity]

I think you need to…have him send you his church’s profession of faith. Then…post it here.

There is a 90 percent chance that his church’s statement of faith is the WCF:

westminster-confession-of-faith.com/

 

[De_Maria]

2b. The Forgiveness of Sins and Merit

Considering the immutability of God’s justice therefore, man cannot make any satisfaction for his sins,

God’s justice is immutable. But in His justice, which is perfect mercy by the way, God accepts the repentant sinner’s sacrifices:
Psalm 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

God is perfectly merciful and perfectly just.

for at least two reasons.

Your reasoning has already proven faulty.

First of all, God demands a perfect life of obedience.

True. But God also forgives the repentant sinner:

1 John 2:1
King James Version (KJV)
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

But we have all sinned.

Not all:

Romans 5:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

And even our best works are still corrupted by our sin (Isa. 64:6).

Not true. You are taking Isaiah out of context. Isaiah is talking about sinners and reprobates who have turned away from God. Their works are dirty rags.

Isaiah 64:5-7
King James Version (KJV)
5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved. 6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. 7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

God is angry at those who do not remember His goodness. But He meets those who rejoice and work righteousness and remember the goodness of God.

This means that we are in debt to the legal demands of God’s justice.

True. We owe a debt of love:
Romans 13:8
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Romans 8:11-13
King James Version (KJV)
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, **we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.**

It matters not on this account that God is merciful, for He cannot and will not corrupt His justice for the sake of His mercy, just as He will not compromise His mercy for the sake of His justice.

Correct.

Yet how can we earn with God?

According to God’s instructions.

Rome teaches that we can merit to our account not only to pay for our active disobedience, but also to pay for the obedience which we did not render to God. The claim is made that this merit is not something which God has to give by right, but that He just graciously chooses to do so, by counting our unworthy gifts as worthy of greater value, such that He can even consider certain sinful works as works of supererogation.

Yes. That is true. Works of supererogation, that is, more works than are necessary for our personal salvation, will be used to supply for those lacking in the Body of Christ. As Scripture says:

Colossians 1:24
King James Version (KJV)
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

The Reformed faith rejects this as, again, totally contrary to the justice of God. God cannot, and will not count anything as more worthy than it actually is. He is just. So, it is not like asking your father for money to buy him a present. If we use God’s money to buy Him a present, that earns us nothing. The analogy is totally flawed to begin with, because a father only counts such a present as valuable because it comes from his son.

We are His children:
Romans 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Hebrews 12:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Yet since the Fall, we are no longer children of God by nature, we are by nature children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3) and children of the devil (John 8:44-47), and this is why our salvation necessarily includes adoption (Ephesians 1:5; Romans 8:15).

That argues against all that you just said. Yes, we are children of God, because we are the Body of Christ.

If we were children of God already, we would not need to be adopted.

You are confusing yourself. We are adopted after we repent and turn to God and are Baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. That is Catholic Teaching.

But you were saying that God’s justice is immutable and therefore every little sin leads to hell.

As creatures, “in God we live and move and have our being” (Acts 17:28),

That’s Catholic Doctrine.

and as Christians it is God “who worketh in us to will and to do of His good pleasure” (Philippians 2:13),

That is also Catholic Doctrine and the main reason why our works are so important. Because when we do the works of God, it is God working through us.

so we cannot give anything to God which He has not first given to us (Romans 11:35-36; Psalm 16:2).

Still Catholic Doctrine.

Therefore we can never be anything more than debtors to God (Luke 17:10).

Still Catholic Doctrine.

And if we were to earn with God through the merit of our works,

God says that we can:
Romans 2:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

then our salvation would not at all be of grace, because whatever is of works cannot be at all of grace (Romans 11:6; Romans 4:4-5).

You are confused again. That terminology doesn’t mean that works are being compared to grace. That terminology means that the dispensation of Moses is being compared to the dispensation of Christ.

The dispensation of Moses is of works. The dispensation of Christ is of grace.

In order for a man to be saved in the dispensation of Moses, one must await the Day of Judgment where his works will be judged by God and rewarded or punished.

In the dispensation of Christ, a man is saved when he repents from his sins and is baptized calling on the name of Jesus Christ. At that moment, he walks on Mount Sion with the Saints and Angels (Heb 12:21-24).

Therefore, the dispensation of Christ is by grace. The dispensation of Moses is by works. If it is by works it is not by grace because it means that one has awaited his justification until the last day.

Psalm 50 speaks about how our sacrifices can not possibly increase God’s richness, since anything we can offer comes from Him, and belongs to Him already, “If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof.” Isaiah also speaks of the insufficiency of anything we could bring to God in payment “And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering. All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity” (Isaiah 40:15-18).

You are arguing against yourself. That doesn’t argue against merit, it simply explains the magnificent nature of God’s mercy towards us.

In other words, God rewards our works, even though He doesn’t need to.

The multitude of continual sacrifices in the Old Testament was ordained specifically to teach God’s people that there is no sacrifice which we can bring which could ever make satisfaction for or expiate our sins,

I don’t think that is true. Perhaps you can provide the Scripture to support your claim.

We believe the sacrifices of the Old Testament were ordained in order to remind the people of God that everything which they own is God’s and that they must be thankful for all He has given them. There may be other reasons for those sacrifices however.

so that instead we look the the one sacrifice of the promised Messiah (Hebrews 10:1-18).

Yes, the one Sacrifice in which we participate when we consume the Eucharist.

This passage teaches that in contrast to the continual sacrifices of the Old Testament, telling us of our need for a better sacrifice, the absence of daily sacrifices in the New Testament tells us of our remission of sins,

You are mistaken. We have a daily sacrifice in the New Testament. One which you reject but which we have none the less:
Mal 1:
11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.
This is the daily sacrifice. It is the Eucharist.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

that our sins are forgiven on account of Christ’s sacrifice, since after He offered Himself, He sat down in heaven, telling us that His sacrificial work as Priest is finished, so that now He need only intercede for us by pointing to that one sacrifice. And this is why Rome’s Mass denies the value and sufficiency of this sacrifice (notwithstanding their contrived explanations),

It is your explanations which are contrived. That comes from the fact that you follow man’s traditions and not God’s Word.

1st. Jesus is our Passover:
1 Corinthians 5:7
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

2nd. The Passover must be consumed:
Exodus 12:4
And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.

3rd. Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of God and drink His blood, you have no life in you:
Hebrews 10:25-31
King James Version (KJV)
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

This is why missing the Mass is a mortal sin. Because it is in the Mass that the Eucharist is offered. Anyone who misses the Mass intentionally, treads underfoot the Body of Christ and despises the Blood of the Covenant in the Eucharist.

because the daily sacrifice of the Mass testifies that our sins have still has not been forgiven, since it is offered again and again and it is still not enough.

Have you stopped sinning?
1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

It denies the efficacy of Christ’s atonement because it makes His sacrifice dependent on the participation of the people, and their disposition in receiving it, instead of on the work of Christ alone.

That’s not even logical. It is by the Sacraments that Christ applies to us His grace.

And yes, it is dependent on our participation:
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

We believe Christ’s sacrifice has paid for all our sins, past, present, and future,

Only for those who have not rejected the grace of God. Those who reject His grace will die in their sins.

and that we receive the forgiveness of our sins, by faith in His sacrifice, that is, we know we are forgiven by believing in Christ’s sacrifice for us, not that our faith adds to it, or makes it effective.

On the contrary, without faith we can not please God.
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Without faith, we do not receive the grace of God and His sacrifice for us is in vain:
Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

2c. The Authority to Forgive Sins

If I do something wrong towards Person X, only that person has the authority to forgive me for it. If Person Y said to me that they forgive me on the behalf of Person X, then I would not know whether Person X had really forgiven me, and Person X would understandably be very offended, especially if they did not in fact forgive me. Because our sins are against God, we must receive forgiveness from God Himself.

It is written:
2 Corinthians 5:19-20
King James Version (KJV)
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Everything which you said is contradicted in that verse. God has appointed men to forgive sins in His name.

And it is written elsewhere:
John 20:23
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

It is impossible to forgive someone on behalf of someone else, even if they do forgive you. It is only possible to declare that another person forgives you, that is, to carry the message of forgiveness from that person. Only God Himself has the sovereign right to choose to either forgive or “retain” (not forgive) sins.

This has been disproved above. With Scripture.

This is why the Pharisees accused Christ of blaspheming when He forgave a cripple his sins against God (Mark 2:5-10). Christ demonstrated that He does have this divine authority on earth to forgive sins, by demonstrating His miraculous healing of the man, signifying His divine power. By claiming to have authority to forgive sins, Christ was claiming to be God Himself.

Christ passed on His authority to miraculously heal to men. There is no indication that in doing so, He turned them into deities:
Matthew 10:1
And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

By the same logic, He also gave them the power to remit and retain sins. There is no indication that He thereby gave turned them into gods:
John 20:23
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Rome makes claims of deity therefore for the Roman bishops when she claims that they have authority to forgive sins.

Not true. The Catholic Church simply does not resist the grace of God given to Her.

When the risen Christ gave the Spirit to the apostles,

He also gave it to the Church. Because the Apostles are the first and highest ranking members of Christ’s Church.

He gave them the authority to declare the forgiveness of sins as part of "the Great Commission”,

A Commission which continues to this day. We have not stopped Teaching and Baptizing:
Matthew 28:19-20
King James Version (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

in sending them as His ministers to teach and baptise all nations and preach the Gospel of the remission of sins. The Gospel declares the forgiveness of sins. The forgiveness of sins must be preached authoritatively. And the apostles were not given authority to forgive whoever they wanted, but to make an authoritative declaration of forgiveness to those whom God has forgiveness, that is, those who believe the Gospel are forgiven by God. This is demonstrated in Paul’s authoritative preaching in Acts 13: “Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.” So the ministers of Christ may not declare forgiveness to whomever they please, but only those who believe are justified (declared righteous/forgiven).

You mixed truth and error there so well that it is hard to untangle.

1. It is true that the Church forgives all who repent.
2. Nor do they choose who repents and whom to forgive.
3. But no one ever claimed that the Church chose whom to forgive.
4. Nor is it true that one must first be justified in order to be forgiven. For justification occurs when one is forgiven. Therefore, unless one is forgiven, one is not justified. And in order to be forgiven, one must first repent and ask God, either through Baptism or through one of the other Sacraments. One who claims to repent but rejects the Sacraments, can not be assured of forgiveness until the Last Day.

And one of your own has recognised that whenever a minister declares contrary to the doctrine of God, his false declaration has no authority.

Huh? That is Catholic Doctrine. What do you mean, “one?” of your own. We all recognize that fact.

“Preachers act in the name of the Church so long as they teach the doctrines of Christ and the Church; but if they teach, guided by their own minds and arbitrariness of will, things of which they are ignorant, they cannot pass as representatives of the Church; it need not be wondered at that they go astray.” - Cardinal Cajetan (Tommaso de Vio, 1469-1534).

Amen! The great Cardinal was correct. He also was correct in all his arguments against Calvinists and all other forms of Protestants and Reformers. Including yours. You ought to read more of his teachings.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

So if any minister, no matter what office they hold in the church declares that the sins are forgiven of someone who does not believe the Gospel of Christ’s all-sufficient sacrifice for sin, then they have no authority to do so.

1. I have no idea what you mean by “all-sufficient”. Scripture says:
   Colossians 1:24
   King James Version (KJV)
   24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:

That is the KJV. Here’s another Reformed interpretation:’
Colossians 1:24
New International Version (NIV)
Paul’s Labor for the Church

24 Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

That doesn’t sound like “all-sufficient” to me. Nor can I find that term in Scripture.

1. All that is necessary is faith in Christ. And proof of that faith by continuance in good works.
2. Every Priest who has been authorized by the Church to hear confessions has the authority of God to remit sins. But no one’s sins are remitted who has not repented of his sins.

They are teaching falsely,

You are teaching falsely.

and Christ is against them.

You are against Christ.

But when a preacher declares to believers that their sins are forgiven, their declaration has the authority of God. The Holy Spirit speaks of this authority given to the teaching offices in the church when Paul writes, "And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

That is the explaining the Sacrament of Reconciliation. In common parlance, Confession.

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." The ministry of “reconciliation” literally is the “atonement” accomplished by Christ spoken of in Romans 5:11.

No. It is literally the Sacrament of Confession.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

Paul lays down the only authority by which forgiveness of sins can be declared to anyone in Romans 4:4-8, and shows that it is God alone who must forgive sin, "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.”

Wrong.

Remember that David confessed to a Prophet. It is by Nathan that he received word that he was forgiven. Therefore, St. Paul is making reference to the Sacrament of Confession, wherein we confess to a Priest and are informed of the forgiveness of our sins by him.

Notice also, that although David was forgiven, he still had to pay for the consequence of his sins. That is why his baby died and why many years later, Absalom, his son, raped his concubines in front of all of Israel and attempted to take over David’s Kingdom. Read the entire account. Here’s an excerpt of the punishment which David would receive:
2 Sam 12:
9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.
11 Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

II Corinthians 2:10 shows how the teaching offices must authoritatively declare forgiven those who are readmitted into the church after showing the genuineness of their faith by repentance and confession of their sin.

That’s Catholic Doctrine. The process is called the Sacrament of Confession.

Ephesians 1:7 and Colossians 1:14 teach that all believing church members have the forgiveness of sins

It is assumed that they know they must repent and ask for forgiveness in the Sacraments.

(unbelieving hypocrites in the visible church are not truly spiritual members of the church).

Says who? Unbelieving hypocrites are simply unbelieving hypocritical members of Christ’s Church. They will be dealt with accordingly at the end of time. Being a member of Christ’s Church does not grant automatic salvation.

Ephesians 4:32 again teaches that it is God Himself who has forgiven us for Christ’s sake.

Catholic Teaching.

I John 1:9 assures us that as we confess our sins to God Himself, it is God Himself who “is faithful and just to forgives us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness”.

He is just to forgiving us, as we have seen, on account of Christ’s propitiation for us (I John 2:1-2). So, God’s justice is our comfort, no longer a terrible fear.

It should remain a terrible fear for you, because you tread underfoot the Body of Christ and reject the Blood of the Covenant which saved you, every time you blaspheme the Mass and intentionally refrain from attending (Heb 10:25-31).

Hebrews 10:31
King James Version (KJV)
31*It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[rfournier103]

It is my understanding that there are only 15 Bible verses that are dogmatically interpreted for you as Catholics.

Again, what about 1 Timothy 3:15… "the Chuch of the Living God, the pillar and ground of truth."

Gonna reply to post # 51 or what? Maybe you’d care to join us on the **Bible being the Sole Authority?? ** thread in “Non-Catholic Religions”?

You keep dodging this, buddy. Also, where in Scripture does it say that Scripture ALONE is the SOLE authority of Christians???

If you want to understand the Reformed Faith to anticipate the debates ahead of time, I would study reformed.org and monergism.com. There’s a 500 year history of what divides us; therefore, the issues are not as simple in how some try to make it on this thread. The summary of the Reformed view can be found in the 5 solas of the Protestant reformation.

Of course, there are many other sites that could explain over two millenia of Catholic theology like www.salvationhistory.com, or www.scripturecatholic.com. Catholicism holds it’s own with 2,000 years of theology, compared to a paltry 500 years. Do the math

I completely agree considering the thread topic. That is the central issue of the Protestant Reformation: Sola Scriptura verses Apostolic Succession. As a Christian who holds to Reformed theology, I believe if Apostolic Succession is true, then the Catholic Faith is true. If sola scriptura is true, then the Catholic Faith cannot stand an examination test through the means of Sola Scriptura.

Paperclip… Christian Unity won’t engage me in this debate because Sola Scriptura IS NOT IN THE BIBLE. I keep asking for an answer to 1 Timothy 3:15, but he won’t give us one.

Ask your inlaws where in the Bible Sola Scriptura can be found. The Church IS the pillar and ground of truth. Always has been, always will be. It says so IN THE BIBLE. There was ONE Christian faith back in ye olde Bible dayes. If that was 2,000 years ago, and the Catholic Church is 2,000 years old… Hmm…

 

[Steveabrous]

Ask your inlaws where in the Bible Sola Scriptura can be found. The Church IS the pillar and ground of truth. Always has been, always will be. It says so IN THE BIBLE. There was ONE Christian faith back in ye olde Bible dayes. If that was 2,000 years ago, and the Catholic Church is 2,000 years old… Hmm…

I agree that should be your next focus. Present it like this. Sola scriptura (the bible alone) is a doctrine that says all christian doctrines are in the bible. If that is the case then Sola Scriptura itself(since it is a doctrine) must be in the bible. In otherwords in order for sola scriptura to be true the bible has to say " All christian doctrines are founds in scripture" or sola scriptura must be thrown out as a false doctrine. Of course we know the bible doesn’t say all christian doctrines are in the bible it says the exact opposite:

“So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.” 2nd thes. 2:15

Ask you in laws, If this passage is not a complete refutation of sola scriptura, then what does this passage means? I have never gotten an answer to that question from a protestant. It usually turns to “Satan knows the scriptures and has posioned your mind.”

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Paperclip… Christian Unity won’t engage me in this debate because Sola Scriptura IS NOT IN THE BIBLE. I keep asking for an answer to 1 Timothy 3:15, but he won’t give us one.

fournier,

CU won’t answer any questions that don’t help his personal agenda and those he can twist to promote it.

 

[rfournier103]

fournier,

CU won’t answer any questions that don’t help his personal agenda and those he can twist to promote it.

I guess that means I win the debate? :dancing: His silence screams volumes. I hope everyone who is following this thread takes note.