Reformes and Catholic Doctrine

[t68ware]

I have heard that some of the Reformers, as well as other Protestant leaders such as Wesley while they did not hold to the RCC as the One Church still believed in the doctrines of the Real Presence and the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. Can anyone help shed some light on this? Thanks!!

 

[06convert]

Well, are you wondering why? Despite having conflicts about some some of the methods that the Catholic church used back in those days, some of the practices and disciplines of the Church. There were certain facts that Martin Luther, and John Wesley simply could not dispute, no matter how many other things they disagreed about.

Martin Luther on Mary

 

[Drilling4Truth]

John Wesley was seen by some as a sort of undercover Catholic for his belief in the True Presence. But, his own writings reveal deep suspicions of the Catholic Church. As an Englishman born after the Reformation, Wesley was raised with a healthy distrust of the supposed foreign influences of the Papacy.

Like many reformers, Wesley never intended to separate from the Church of England. After he died, the Church of England began to view Methodism more as a group outside the Communion. From there the Methodists followed the path that many other protestant denominations did. There was the great schism in the denomination just prior to the American Civil War, then re-unification, a sharp decline followed by the merger with the Evangelical United Brethren. Hence the name United Methodist Church.

From there the denomination became much more active in social justice programs while distancing itself from orthodox theology. It was one of the original denominations to ordain women, it had jumped on the Pro-Choice bandwagon for many years, although that attitude has tempered in recent years. Still, when Planned Parenthood decided it needed an official chaplain to “articulate the spiritual dimensions of sexuality and reproduction”, they found Rev. Ignacio Castuera, a Methodist minister who is often seen wearing the Roman collar, oddly enough.

 

[Steadfast]

Yes, Luther believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary and the Real Presence.

Only the latter is considered dogma by Lutherans though “many” accept the former (I’m one of them).

It is sad that so many American Lutherans don’t know their own history, and prefer to get in bed with the nonsense of either American “Evangelicalism” or the “broadmindedness” of American Liberal Protestantism.

FWIW, there is something of a tertium quid among Lutherans who are more liturgically and traditionally sensitive than their “low church” brethren and yet far more doctrinally and practically conservative than their “broad church” siblings. They can be found across all synodical lines.

That being said, using essentially Anglican terms to describe Lutheran phenomena feels ookie.

 

[Argent]

It seems like many of the Reformers are “shockingly Catholic” for modern-day Protestants who encounter their writings and beliefs for the first time. Maybe the closer one gets to the Historic Church (both chronologically and doctrinally), the more Catholic it looks! And this certainly holds true for Luther, Calvin, and Wesley (in varying degrees of course), compared to many of their modern followers.

 

[Drilling4Truth]

It seems like many of the Reformers are “shockingly Catholic” for modern-day Protestants who encounter their writings and beliefs for the first time. Maybe the closer one gets to the Historic Church (both chronologically and doctrinally), the more Catholic it looks! And this certainly holds true for Luther, Calvin, and Wesley (in varying degrees of course), compared to many of their modern followers.

I think you’re right, but these reformers opened Pandora’s Box in terms of doctrine and theology. The modern equivalent of their denominations are a far cry from where they used to be. And most protestants don’t know or don’t care to know the history of their own faith tradition. And why should they? They average person fears change and will go to great lengths to continue the status quo.

 

[t68ware]

I think you’re right, but these reformers opened Pandora’s Box in terms of doctrine and theology. The modern equivalent of their denominations are a far cry from where they used to be. And most protestants don’t know or don’t care to know the history of their own faith tradition. And why should they? They average person fears change and will go to great lengths to continue the status quo.

You are right on this point. After I have read the writings of Wesley and Luther and brought out to my pastor or other Protestants about their Catholic beliefs, the response I get is “Well, we don’t follow Wesley but the Bible, and the Bible does not mention those doctrines.” It seems my Protestant brothers are very afraid of their Catholic heritage!

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Remember…all the “Reformers” were Catholic before they went and screwed things all up.

 

[t68ware]

Remember…all the “Reformers” were Catholic before they went and screwed things all up.

It is very strange how the various churches of the Refomers turned out even though they believed a lot of what the RCC teaches. On a more personal note, I have struggled with becoming Catholic, and when I try to move more and more in the Protestant direction, I always find myself being drawn back to the Catholic theology.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

It is very strange how the various churches of the Refomers turned out even though they believed a lot of what the RCC teaches. On a more personal note, I have struggled with becoming Catholic, and when I try to move more and more in the Protestant direction, I always find myself being drawn back to the Catholic theology.

**Then that is it my friend. Jesus is trying to tell you something, no? How can anyone not be Catholic after the history and teachings of Christ and the Catholic church? When I was in Rome last year, the Catacomb walls said it all… **