Refused Baptism

[jmcrae]

The reason I became lax in my attendance to church was because I witnessed a lot of hypocrisy and cruelty in the Catholic schools I attended, I came to see that in my local church it was more about who you were and how much money you put in the collection plate. It sickened me.

So, you’re going to risk going to Hell week after week because of something other people did? That’s crazy, if you ask me.

If he wants to banish me from the flock, that’s fine, I’ll answer to St.Peter when my time comes but what shocked and upset me was that he flatly refused to administer the sacrament to my one month old baby because of this.

Because he has no reasonable hope that the child will be raised according to the promises made at his Baptism.

Time is not something you can repay. You can’t take an hour from the future and transplant it into an hour that was wasted a week ago or a year ago.

But we owe to God one hour of our time each Sunday, to go to Mass and be present to give thanksgiving to God for giving us life, for dying on the Cross for our sins, and rising again from the dead to give us the chance to go to Heaven. This isn’t something you can do “later” - the debt is owed each Sunday, and once it’s been missed, it can’t be replaced.

That’s why missing Mass is a mortal sin. It’s not about missing the bad music, or the lacklustre preaching, or the strange people that you have to sit with - it’s about that hour of time that we owe to God in thanksgiving each Sunday.

And just who is this God person, that He would require us to owe Him anything? Why isn’t being a nice person good enough for Him?

The answer is that He is our Creator, and it is His love for us that sustains us in existence. If He were to stop loving you even for an instant, you would cease ever to have existed at all. So, an hour each Sunday really isn’t that much to give in return, to say “Thank you” for His love for you. Even if it involves inconveniences.

I read once about a girl in Africa who had her legs blown off by an IED. She walks fifty miles to Mass, and fifty miles home again, on her hands, every Sunday, to say “thank you” to God for her life.

There are people in China and other communist countries who have to sneak to Mass every Sunday, and they would receive severe penalties from their government if they were caught, but their Catholic faith is so important to them that they sneak out to Mass every Sunday, anyway.

“Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What God desires is in your heart and by what you decide to do every day, you will be a good man. Or not”

This includes going to Mass every Sunday, and following all of the laws of the Church. You cannot be holy, if you aren’t doing the basic things. It is impossible to be a good Catholic while at the same time being disobedient - it is just impossible.

 

[Blessedwithfive]

Sorry, i used the terminology of mortal sin , it is indeed a grave matter, i wasnt accusing, just stated it wrong.

I didn’t see the problem with the term mortal sin, she said she attended catholic school, so I would have thought they would have covered at least that attending Mass isn’t optional…

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Georgia’s,
To be honest, I probably wouldn’t take my son to church there anyway, it was the hypocrisy of that congregation that influenced me to stop going in the first place. I guess I could try a church in another town, but considering I was baptised, took my first holy communion and was confirmed there, I wanted my son to start his faith in the same place.

Cider,
I see no mention of attending services in the passages you mention. I said to him ‘father, I consider myself a good Christian’ his reply was and I quote ‘not if you don’t attend church you’re not’
Is it not possible to raise a child in the faith if you don’t attend church very regularly? I confess myself confused. Up to now, I did think I was living as a good catholic, lessons learnt in my childhood have stayed with me & I live by them, I do take my faith seriously, but I saw mixing with people who use the name of Jesus to achieve their own ends as destructive and wicked & I didn’t want to be around it. Faith to me is something personal, I couldn’t stay all night & recite the rosary with a dying patient if my faith was in question, what I find in question is my willingness to celebrate said faith with unchristian people.
I am reminded of a quote,

“Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What God desires is in your heart and by what you decide to do every day, you will be a good man. Or not”

If The priest main concern is that I do not attend Mass, I would say "What if I put more effort into attending Mass? I know myself that it is rough when you work odd hours. Do you live in a densely populated area? If so, there are very little excuses to miss Mass if you have a car and internet access to do a little research as to what parish has Mass at what times. Just being too tired to go to Mass does not count as a good excuse. Not that I am accusing you of that. I use to work graveyard and would go to church in the late morning when I should have been asleep. And that was when I was a protestant. Then when I worked swing shift, I would get up early to go to church then go to a bible study for a hour and go home, take about a 20 minuet nap already in my work clothes, wake up, then go to work for normally a 10 hour shift. Now, going to church every Sunday was not required when I was a protestant but it was that important to me that I made sure I went. But as a Catholic, we are required to go every Sunday unless there is a serious reason to miss Mass. A lot of people consider themselves good, and I am sure you do take your faith seriously. Obedience to The Church is obedience to God. Asking for one hour a week is not unreasonable. The Church has the authority to require it.

How is a person to know if you are living a good Christian life just because you say so? That would raise a red flag in my eyes too. People see your actions. Go to Mass Go to a different parish if you have to. No offence, but even I get a sense that you feel Mass attendance is not that important. The “You mean I cant raise my Child in The Faith if I don’t go to Mass?” Makes it seem like you think you know better than The Church. I am more than sure that you do not think that, but that is the way it comes across. Maybe be priest sensed that. Don’t deny yourself The Eucharist because you don’t want to eat with other sinners Jesus said whoever does not eat his flesh and drink his blood has no life in them. Forget the fake Christians. Let God deal with them. God bless and ask again to get your child baptized. Maybe at a different parish. The parent of my godson don’t go to Mass and the father has no interest in going to mass (The mother recently has taken a interest about 4 years later) I go to Mass about 3 times a week. I love it. The early Christians risked their lives to go to Mass. Some still do. I think you will do the right thing. God bless

 

[SighGuy]

Cider-- I wasn’t saying that you, or dee, were accusing OP of being in a state of mortal sin. Sorry if you thought that. The language used, however, seemed to at least imply this (“it’s a mortal sin to miss Mass without a valid reason.” [ignorance of this precept not being a valid reason]) When we say “missing Mass is a mortal sin,” the party who reads it could interpret it to mean that they are being accused of being in mortal sin, and we’re also stating something false.

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

Missing Mass is not necessarily (or probably not even usually) a mortal sin. It is grave matter. Missing Mass while having full knowledge and deliberate consent to do so is mortal sin.

1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.

Mortal sin is very serious. I wasn’t trying to start an argument about this. I am simply saying, even if we don’t want to avoid saying mortal sin for the sake of not sounding like we’re stating that someone has destroyed charity in their heart, we should at least avoid saying it because it’s not really correct to say that missing Mass is mortal sin.

Obviously you and I understand that missing Mass can be mortal sin, and so between us, we get it when it is said “missing is mortal,” but for someone who doesn’t really understand that missing Mass is a sin in the first place, or at least a grave one, a statement like this can become really misleading.

 

[sttcatherinefan]

Hi everyone,
I need some advice cause I’m honestly really distressed. Just been to see my parish priest to inquire how I get my newborn baby baptised! I was shocked and really hurt at how I was treated. He said he’d never seen me at mass so it was doubtful. I explained that I am a nurse and I work nights so getting to mass is a struggle, besides I consider myself a good Christian, (in the ways that matter) I am good to people around me, I volunteer to help out less fortunate. I went to live in a catholic orphanage in Africa for 6 months to help tend to the children who’d lost their parents due to HIV.
The reason I became lax in my attendance to church was because I witnessed a lot of hypocrisy and cruelty in the Catholic schools I attended, I came to see that in my local church it was more about who you were and how much money you put in the collection plate. It sickened me.
If he wants to banish me from the flock, that’s fine, I’ll answer to St.Peter when my time comes but what shocked and upset me was that he flatly refused to administer the sacrament to my one month old baby because of this.
Am I being stupid? I sort of thought it was like the Hippocratic oath with doctors, I thought it would be his duty to protect my baby’s soul, I fully intend to raise my boy Catholic, but was he right to smack me down like that because my church attendance is lacking?
I’m literally in floods of disillusioned tears, any advice would be welcome
Regards
Zara

Hey Zara. I’m sorry for your situation. As someone who was also extensively bullied in Catholic schools, I can empathize with what you are going through. I attend Mass but am not registered with a parish because I don’t want to deal with the politics. I’d be in the same situation as you if I wanted to marry or baptize a baby. However, this is a very conservative site so you are going to get lots of lectures and not lots of sympathy.

I think that practically your best bet is to write an email to the priest in question. I’d be professional but firm. I’d mention your work schedule as well as your experiences with the Catholic school and mention that the priest’s demeanor and words opened up old wounds. I’d mention that his attitude seems against “New Evangelization” and Pope Francis’ desires for a more merciful Church. You can even use examples - Pope Francis’ baptizing the civilly married couple’s child in the Sistine Chapel or his call to the single pregnant woman offering to baptize her baby. Back in Buenos Aires, he used to baptize the babies of parents’ who weren’t the best Catholics all the time. I’d say that you’d consider registering with the parish and attending Mass there if your schedule permits but first you’d like your child baptized with no preconditions as a gesture of goodwill. I’d state that if the priest continues to refuse that you’d bring this serious matter up with the Archdioceses.

Perhaps the priest was just cranky that day and will apologize. If not, then I’d call up the Archdioceses and ask if there is any recourse about a parish refusing to baptize a child. There probably is because denying someone especially an innocent child the Sacraments is a serious matter. I’m not sure where you live; it depends on the bishop. There are some ultra conservative types who would side with the priest, but I don’t think that many would. I’d write an email to the appropriate office and attach the email that you wrote to the priest and his response. I’d reiterate what you wrote in your email to the priest and mention that the interactions with the priest didn’t make you want to become a more active practicing Catholic. It reinforced your issues with the Catholic Church. Helping lapsed Catholics return to the Church is very important for most bishops so actions by priests that drive lapsed Catholics away from the Church are of concern to them. I’d also use the Pope Francis examples; this is why he does these symbolic gestures, so that they can be used in cases like yours.

Again, I’m sorry and I completely empathize with your plight.

 

[InThePew]

Reading this thread reminds me of an “exit-survey” of non-churchgoing Catholics in the Diocese of Trenton conducted on behalf of Bishop David O’Connell and, in particular, one reply described by the survey’s authors as one which could serve as a guideline for the Bishop’s response. That reply was as follows: "ask a question of any priest and you get a rule; you don’t get a ‘let’s-sit-down-and-talk-about-it’ response.

Regardless of whether the priest’s decision was right or wrong (and I note that it is largely up to his personal judgment) the way in which he dealt with your request was, at least from how it made you feel, unhelpful (to use a charitable term) and, judging by your reaction, clearly not likely to lead you back to regular mass attendance. So, I’d like to say that I’m sorry you were treated in a way that made you feel upset and excluded (along with your child). From all that you have said about yourself, it sounds like you’re someone who’s clearly committed to living out your faith in a way which reflects the values of Christ. I hope and pray that you, together with your child, will find even greater joy in living out that faith as an active member of a Catholic community.It well may be that having your baby baptised will take longer than you may prefer in order to allow you time to become a part of that community but bear in mind that it is about the journey as much as the destination and, God-willing, you will be accompanied and supported on that journey.

In the meantime, provided of course you feel that it would be helpful for you, you might want to e-mail the priest in question, as sttcatherinefan suggested, saying more or less, what you wrote in your original post - basically, telling him how you feel.

 

[TigerKitty]

…
Regardless of whether the priest’s decision was right or wrong (and I note that it is largely up to his personal judgment) …

I thought that priest’s actions/decisions must be based on cannon law and the guidelines of the local diocese?

It is unfortunate that the OP’s interaction with her priest left her feeling frustrated and upset. Hopefully this situation provides an opportunity for her to return to the church - if not the parish she spoke of in her post, perhaps a different local parish. Her work in healthcare is definitely indicative of someone who is trying to live a selfless life of ministering to others.

 

[Sunbreak]

The priest did nothing wrong. It is common for a pastor not to baptize, marry or even do a funeral for someone who has not been a parishioner. Just because someone was a parishioner as a child doesn’t make them a lifelong member of a parish.
Under Canon Law, for an infant to be baptized licitly one of the conditions is that
“2/ there must be a founded hope that the infant will be brought up in the Catholic religion; if such hope is altogether lacking, the baptism is to be delayed according to the prescripts of particular law after the parents have been advised about the reason.”

 

[sttcatherinefan]

That is definitely not true. Both my dads’ parents were given funerals at a parish they didn’t attend. I believe it was the parish where they were married.

 

[jilly4ski]

That is definitely not true. Both my dads’ parents were given funerals at a parish they didn’t attend. I believe it was the parish where they were married.

It is also common to get permission to have a funeral, wedding, or baptism done somewhere else, but note the permission. You can’t just fly down to some sunny state and ask the local priest to marry you. But you could approach your own pastor and the pastor of another parish and ask permission for a wedding, funeral, or baptism to occur in the alternate location. This requires some sort of relationship at the parish you are attending and usually some sort of connection to the parish you wish to use.

 

[clem456]

Hi everyone,
I need some advice cause I’m honestly really distressed. Just been to see my parish priest to inquire how I get my newborn baby baptised! I was shocked and really hurt at how I was treated. He said he’d never seen me at mass so it was doubtful. I explained that I am a nurse and I work nights so getting to mass is a struggle, besides I consider myself a good Christian, (in the ways that matter) I am good to people around me, I volunteer to help out less fortunate. I went to live in a catholic orphanage in Africa for 6 months to help tend to the children who’d lost their parents due to HIV.
The reason I became lax in my attendance to church was because I witnessed a lot of hypocrisy and cruelty in the Catholic schools I attended, I came to see that in my local church it was more about who you were and how much money you put in the collection plate. It sickened me.
If he wants to banish me from the flock, that’s fine, I’ll answer to St.Peter when my time comes but what shocked and upset me was that he flatly refused to administer the sacrament to my one month old baby because of this.
Am I being stupid? I sort of thought it was like the Hippocratic oath with doctors, I thought it would be his duty to protect my baby’s soul, I fully intend to raise my boy Catholic, but was he right to smack me down like that because my church attendance is lacking?
I’m literally in floods of disillusioned tears, any advice would be welcome
Regards
Zara

I thought it would be his duty to protect my baby’s soul,

It’s his duty to care for souls and to do that he must proclaim the Gospel truthfully. It’s also your duty as mother.

Baptism is a rebirth, not an innoculation. It’s not simply a moment that makes it all “ok”. Baptism is a sacrament of initiation, not a destination in itself. It sets your child on a journey of conversion, he is born into the life of the Church. You are taking this journey of conversion and rebirth as well.

You are the head of a family. The family is the domestic Church, the most basic unit of the faith he is born into.
In your family, what is your child reborn to? Since your child is born into a family of faith, and you are the head of the most basic unit of that faith, your own participation in that faith is important. You are the first and primary community of faith for him.

The priest is doing the right thing by presenting this reality to you. We’ve all experienced hypocrisy, there’s no escape from it. Choosing not to participate yourself, will not remove hypocrisy from your child’s world.

 

[dee_burk]

There is nothing any of us on this forum can really do with this situation, we really dont know since we were not there with you.

I will offer a bit of advice. Look into your heart and at your infant and decide “is this my chance to come home to the Catholic Church?” “Is this my chance to put aside my feelings and approach our Lord as a humble mother just as Mary did?”
If you think Yes, make an appointment with your priest and like the prodigal son…come home. All of us here on CAF i am sure, welcome you home.

God Bless and Peace.

 

[SecretGarden]

A priest has the right to refuse to baptize a child but how he did it, on a pastoral level, I am uncertain how ethical it is.

Considering the way he treated you, I would consider going to another parish but I wouldn’t say anything about wanting to baptize your son. I would visit the parish, go to mass and try attending some type of regular event they have such as a bible study or something that meets regularly. I would also try to get involved in it by volunteering somehow. It has been my experience when you do this, you learn a great deal about that parish in terms of who the people are, what they are like etc. Seeing how the priest interacts with his parishioners is also important to watch. Once you do that, you will see how the parish works and you can determine if this parish is the place you want to raise your children. If it is, then you can make arrangements to have your child baptised.

I realize that you are busy as a nurse so it makes it difficult to attend mass but if you were able to attend something on a regular basis at this other parish, at least people will get to know you and they will be able to vouch for you and your son.

 

[clem456]

but was he right to smack me down like that because my church attendance is lacking?

It might also be good to assume the priest’s possible motivations are positive, not negative.
While none of us were there to hear and see his expressions etc…his intention almost surely is not to “smack you down”. You are not the one asking to be baptized. The Baptism is for the good of your child, as you realize. That “good” is ongoing.

Baptism is a sacrament of initiation and as such “it lays the foundations of every Christian life. The sharing in the divine nature given to men through the grace of Christ bears a certain likeness to the origin, development, and nourishing of natural life” (CCC). Baptism is a good thing that initiates a life of grace. Your participation is needed as the head of your domestic Church (family), to help his initiation endure and “develop and flourish”.

Again, we sometimes think of the sacraments as a one-time “grace shot” like a measles vaccination. Not so. There is a beautiful ongoing life of grace he can be initiated into.

 

[jmcrae]

Missing Mass is not necessarily (or probably not even usually) a mortal sin.

“Invincible ignorance” is actually not as common as all that.

Remember, in order to be excused on the basis of invincible ignorance, our ignorance must in fact be “invincible” - that is, we must be absolutely unteachable.

 

[InThePew]

I thought that priest’s actions/decisions must be based on cannon law and the guidelines of the local diocese?

They do but the law and guidelines cannot cover every possible situation so some degree of individual judgment is necessarily required.

 

[bauerice]

smh.com.au/world/pope-says-baptism-for-all–even-martians-20140512-zraqo.html#ixzz31X6KkNKa

My granddaughter was attending a Catholic school. She wished to be baptized. The priest refused because her mother (my daughter was a single parent non-church goer). I was more than willing to be responsible to take he to Mass with me. He still refused. Now my granddaughter is a teenager, non-religious and somewhat bitter. Wish PaPa Francis was around then.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

smh.com.au/world/pope-says-baptism-for-all–even-martians-20140512-zraqo.html#ixzz31X6KkNKa

My granddaughter was attending a Catholic school. She wished to be baptized. The priest refused because her mother (my daughter was a single parent non-church goer). I was more than willing to be responsible to take he to Mass with me. He still refused. Now my granddaughter is a teenager, non-religious and somewhat bitter. Wish PaPa Francis was around then.

So wait, you did not take her to mass with you, and you did not see that she was raised Catholic, and you think the original judgement of the priest was to blame?

That is absolutely delusional.

Pope Francis would not have effected the original decision… Putting this on a pope or even on the priest is completely ignoring your own role in this.

 

[bauerice]

Wrong, I did take her to Mass at my Parish. She wanted to be baptized at the parish, where she went to school. I promised to always take her to Mass. My daughter lives quite a distance from me I
also made sure she was being schooled in a RC school.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Wrong, I did take her to Mass at my Parish. She wanted to be baptized at the parish, where she went to school. I promised to always take her to Mass. My daughter lives quite a distance from me I
also made sure she was being schooled in a RC school.

You have been taking her to Mass for her whole life and she is refused baptism?