Refusing to sit as "liturgical abuse"?

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iohanne

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Sitting during specific parts of the liturgy always feels as if I’m being “released” from something or being “relieved from duty.” At the very least, sitting expresses that the reason for which you were standing has ceased to exist. Seeing as I attend the Extraordinary Form almost exclusively, I personally find it awkward to sit during the Gloria or the Creed in the middle of which the sacred ministers as well as most of the congregation sit. This is apparently a mediaeval accretion whereby the unsung low mass began to influence the sung high mass: the priest would recite sotto voce the parts of the Mass normally chanted by the choir/congregation and would thus finish ahead of the choir/congregation and therefore would sit down.

While I am of the belief that many liturgical developments throughout the history of the Latin Church are organic and legitimate, I question this specific mediaeval accretion because it seems to undermine the idea of liturgy as “the work of the people” as if to imply that the priest’s recitation is all that is required while the work of the laity is simply embellishment over on top. Assuming that plainchant rather than polyphony is the musical setting of the Mass, the priest should be chanting along with everyone else. The altar is supposed to be a place of unceasing prayer, praise and glorifications. Nowhere else in Christendom is it the case that the sacred ministers “rest” during the liturgy except in the Latin Church.

After the Reformation, under the influence of Protestant worship services pews began to be introduced more and more into many Catholic parishes when there had been until then only an open space for a nave and some discrete pews only on the side walls and/or in the back. Here is an example of a painting of the inside of St. Mark’s Basilica in Venice. By the 1700s, pews were being introduced on a much more wide scale into the Roman Church. However, even in the 1840s, John Coke Fowler, an Anglican denounced the practice of the rich paying money to permanently reserve the front pews, while speaking of Roman Catholics who “stand and kneel upon the floor which is still common to all of them.” In Canon J.B. O’Connell’s book, Church Furnishings and Buildings (1958), he calls pews “a necessary evil.” The new forest of pews made it awkward to hold a Stations of the Cross, to have a procession around the Church, to refrain from communion when one had not confessed and was not spiritually prepared, to go to the nave because of a disruptive child, to go to the bathroom, etc. It also affected the acoustics of the Church and the echoing effect of the chant was dampened. However, the most relevant change that pews introduced was when the congregation began to imitate the sacred ministers and sit whenever they were sitting - during the Gloria and the Creed - although my research has been unable to p(name removed by moderator)oint why and when this began.

At any rate, I am nothing but an overly educated layman so I’m content to let the sensus fidelium and the proper authorities in Rome lead the way in terms of our liturgical renewal.

However, in the spirit of traditionalism, I wanted to personally rekindle the standing mode of worship of our forefathers and personally abstain from sitting during the Mass. At first, I wondered if this was even allowed but the little pamphlet that came with my Baronius Press missal entitled A Guide To When To Sit, Stand and Kneel says,

"Bodily postures were never comprehensively codified by the rubrics, and these are only offered as a guide to help those attending the extraordinary form of the Roman rite. Depending on local customs different postures from these may be followed, particularly at Low Mass.

So I thought it wasn’t really that big of a deal. I didn’t want to draw too much attention to myself or look too pious or look like a rebel, so at first I simply stood at the very back of the Church and knelt on the bare floor at the appropriate times. I hated being so separated from the action in the sanctuary so I thought I would be daring and go up to the middle of the naive where there’s kind of a vertical “aisle” without pews and I positioned myself all the way to the side hoping to go unnoticed. This didn’t work either because I felt very uncomfortable sticking out like a sore thumb.

Now it’s starting to make me think that maybe I was feeling uncomfortable because maybe I had accidentally fallen into some kind of “liturgical abuse” in that I was separating myself from the Body of Christ in our communal worship. This makes me a little disappointed because I had begun standing during Lent and I really enjoyed the ascetic aspect of it. Additionally, remaining standing has improved my ability to stay concentrated on the liturgy and to maintain an unceasing prayerful and contemplative state. I really think that it’s one way of “increasing active participation” which are words often thrown about in this climate of liturgical controversy. Finally, I really enjoy the fact that the Greek word for “resurrection” is anastasis and can also mean “standing” and I like the idea of the congregation being the Mystical Body of Christ and therefore being iconic of His resurrection. Everything we do in Church is iconic of the heavenly worship and participates in it. Anyways, what’re your opinions on the matter? Am I being disobedient or am I abusing the liturgy?
 
I belong to a TLM parish, where the Mass is according to the 1962 missle.

At the high Mass, the people chant with the choir the Gloria and the Creed. We do sit when the priests sits. I was always told this was an accommodation because the chants of these prayers can become quite long. We are in no way “left” out of this prayer.

During the low Mass, with no choir chanting, the congregation says these two prayers along with the priest, and there is no sitting. We are kneeling though most of the Mass.

Hope this helps.
 
My answer would be Yes.

It sounds as if you`re setting yourself up as a judge, over and against the Church. Is there** PRIDE **there…a sense that you want to be more reverent, more Catholic, than the Church, Herself? :eek:
In its own way, your idea is just as much an abuse as that carried out by some in the OF.

The Church, with Her almost-2,000 years of Holy Spirit-guided wisdom, knows what`s best for us better than any of us as individuals would.** Especially regarding the reverence, dignity, depth and beauty of the TLM in all of its forms.**

Be thankful that you can attend the TLM almost exclusively.
Having said that, im not denying the **TOTAL** validity of the OF! Of course, its just a matter of preference.

i agree with Peggy.
 
We do sit when the priests sits. I was always told this was an accommodation because the chants of these prayers can become quite long. We are in no way “left” out of this prayer.
 
I just do what the book says.

While you might have valid historical/theological points (I don’t know, since I have not investigated those particular things), that kind of thinking sometimes had led to a lot of destruction and disunity (I won’t get into more specifics).

I just follow what the book says to do and say. That way it’s obedient, submissive, harmonious, and… easy.
 
It sounds as if you`re setting yourself up as a judge, over and against the Church. Is there** PRIDE **there…a sense that you want to be more reverent, more Catholic, than the Church, Herself? :eek:
In its own way, your idea is just as much an abuse as that carried out by some in the OF.
I don’t think that’s an entirely accurate assessment…remember, this was in the OP.
At any rate, I am nothing but an overly educated layman so I’m content to let the sensus fidelium and the proper authorities in Rome lead the way in terms of our liturgical renewal.
Iohanne, Martin Mosebach brings up some of these same points in his Heresy of Formlessness. Have you had a chance to read it yet?

And keep in mind that the TLM doesn’t contain rubrics for the laity. Theoretically, although not ideally, you could sit/stand when you want and not be violating any rubric - that explains all the different postures you can see in the painting you linked to. I would still argue for postural uniformity though…at least as long as we still have pews in our churches.
 
I personally don’t feel we should sit during the Credo. Is it really that long that one needs to sit? And of course I’m not speaking of those who need to sit for health reasons or frailty.

I have seen a couple of priests appear to deliberately stay at the altar for the whole Credo. Then all you hear is people fidgeting in disappointment. 😛
 
Now it’s starting to make me think that maybe I was feeling uncomfortable because maybe I had accidentally fallen into some kind of “liturgical abuse” in that I was separating myself from the Body of Christ in our communal worship. This makes me a little disappointed because I had begun standing during Lent and I really enjoyed the ascetic aspect of it. Additionally, remaining standing has improved my ability to stay concentrated on the liturgy and to maintain an unceasing prayerful and contemplative state. I really think that it’s one way of “increasing active participation” which are words often thrown about in this climate of liturgical controversy. Finally, I really enjoy the fact that the Greek word for “resurrection” is anastasis and can also mean “standing” and I like the idea of the congregation being the Mystical Body of Christ and therefore being iconic of His resurrection. Everything we do in Church is iconic of the heavenly worship and participates in it. Anyways, what’re your opinions on the matter? Am I being disobedient or am I abusing the liturgy?
I don’t see that it can be considered disobedient, since you are going against custom rather than against rules. But setting yourself as different from everyone else seems problematic. If nothing else, I would expect you are acting as a distraction to some people. If I noticed someone adopting different postures from the rest of the congregation I would probably start thinking about that rather than the Mass.
 
I don’t see that it can be considered disobedient, since you are going against custom rather than against rules. But setting yourself as different from everyone else seems problematic. If nothing else, I would expect you are acting as a distraction to some people. If I noticed someone adopting different postures from the rest of the congregation I would probably start thinking about that rather than the Mass.
In keeping with this post I suppose the best idea might be to do as you did at first and stand in the back.
 
I just do what the book says.

While you might have valid historical/theological points (I don’t know, since I have not investigated those particular things), that kind of thinking sometimes had led to a lot of destruction and disunity (I won’t get into more specifics).

I just follow what the book says to do and say. That way it’s obedient, submissive, harmonious, and… easy.
It’s also denying the existence of the past.

-Karl
 
Sitting during specific parts of the liturgy always feels as if I’m being “released” from something or being “relieved from duty.” At the very least, sitting expresses that the reason for which you were standing has ceased to exist. Seeing as I attend the Extraordinary Form almost exclusively, I personally find it awkward to sit during the Gloria or the Creed in the middle of which the sacred ministers as well as most of the congregation sit. This is apparently a mediaeval accretion whereby the unsung low mass began to influence the sung high mass: the priest would recite sotto voce the parts of the Mass normally chanted by the choir/congregation and would thus finish ahead of the choir/congregation and therefore would sit down.

While I am of the belief that many liturgical developments throughout the history of the Latin Church are organic and legitimate, I question this specific mediaeval accretion because it seems to undermine the idea of liturgy as “the work of the people” as if to imply that the priest’s recitation is all that is required while the work of the laity is simply embellishment over on top. Assuming that plainchant rather than polyphony is the musical setting of the Mass, the priest should be chanting along with everyone else. The altar is supposed to be a place of unceasing prayer, praise and glorifications. Nowhere else in Christendom is it the case that the sacred ministers “rest” during the liturgy except in the Latin Church.

After the Reformation, under the influence of Protestant worship services pews began to be introduced more and more into many Catholic parishes when there had been until then only an open space for a nave and some discrete pews only on the side walls and/or in the back. Here is an example of a painting of the inside of St. Mark’s Basilica in Venice. By the 1700s, pews were being introduced on a much more wide scale into the Roman Church. However, even in the 1840s, John Coke Fowler, an Anglican denounced the practice of the rich paying money to permanently reserve the front pews, while speaking of Roman Catholics who “stand and kneel upon the floor which is still common to all of them.” In Canon J.B. O’Connell’s book, Church Furnishings and Buildings (1958), he calls pews “a necessary evil.” The new forest of pews made it awkward to hold a Stations of the Cross, to have a procession around the Church, to refrain from communion when one had not confessed and was not spiritually prepared, to go to the nave because of a disruptive child, to go to the bathroom, etc. It also affected the acoustics of the Church and the echoing effect of the chant was dampened. However, the most relevant change that pews introduced was when the congregation began to imitate the sacred ministers and sit whenever they were sitting - during the Gloria and the Creed - although my research has been unable to p(name removed by moderator)oint why and when this began.

At any rate, I am nothing but an overly educated layman so I’m content to let the sensus fidelium and the proper authorities in Rome lead the way in terms of our liturgical renewal.

However, in the spirit of traditionalism, I wanted to personally rekindle the standing mode of worship of our forefathers and personally abstain from sitting during the Mass. At first, I wondered if this was even allowed but the little pamphlet that came with my Baronius Press missal entitled A Guide To When To Sit, Stand and Kneel says,

"Bodily postures were never comprehensively codified by the rubrics, and these are only offered as a guide to help those attending the extraordinary form of the Roman rite. Depending on local customs different postures from these may be followed, particularly at Low Mass.

So I thought it wasn’t really that big of a deal. I didn’t want to draw too much attention to myself or look too pious or look like a rebel, so at first I simply stood at the very back of the Church and knelt on the bare floor at the appropriate times. … Anyways, what’re your opinions on the matter? Am I being disobedient or am I abusing the liturgy?
An excellent post!

No, this is not an abuse. There is no sacramental character to an event where bench meets bottom. You have tapped into the patrimony of your church, getting a glimpse of what temple worship for early (and middle ages) Christians all over was really like. It is still necessary to worship this way in many places, it is totally natural, it is proper form.

[IMG ]http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR5jlVQEU5Xhbl0x6w45Jk33OmQ6mU5wLaDWS07bXSVI6QEqxQB[/IMG]

I can remember a touching scene in one of the old motion pictures about Saint Francis where there is a shot of the congregation of mostly poor common people at Mass and there they were, standing and kneeling (as was common then) on the floor in deepest reverence. The rich sat in font on their little benches in their rich brocades. That scene made a big impact on me.

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/italy/assisi-san-damiano-pictures/slides/IMG_6216.JPG

Keep doing what you are doing, it is a valuable charism. You can help rebuild the church.
 
No, this is not an abuse. There is no sacramental character to an event where bench meets bottom. You have tapped into the patrimony of your church, getting a glimpse of what temple worship for early (and middle ages) Christians all over was really like. It is still necessary to worship this way in many places, it is totally natural, it is proper form.
I recall that resurrection in Greek is anastasis, which also means standing up. One can find parishoners standing up in the Eastern Christian Churches. I’m mainly familiar with Byzantine Christianity (UGCC), but I think standing up is widely practiced in the East.
 
My answer would be Yes.

It sounds as if you`re setting yourself up as a judge, over and against the Church. Is there** PRIDE **there…a sense that you want to be more reverent, more Catholic, than the Church, Herself? :eek:.
I will admit that this thought entered my mind, too, since the OP took great pains to mention his being “overly educated,” etc.
I personally don’t feel we should sit during the Credo. Is it really that long that one needs to sit?
Polyphonic settings tend to be lengthy; some, like Vivaldi, Palestrina and Victoria, tend to be quite lengthy. For these I can understand sitting.

Chanted settings, OTOH, I would say do not really require this, with some exceptions, such as the Dies Irae and Lauda Sion, long sequences that follow graduals and tracts. But the bottom line is, if the priest sits down, then the people sit, too. If he remains standing at the altar, then the people do, as well.
 
I don’t think that’s an entirely accurate assessment…remember, this was in the OP.

Iohanne, Martin Mosebach brings up some of these same points in his Heresy of Formlessness. Have you had a chance to read it yet?

And keep in mind that the TLM doesn’t contain rubrics for the laity. Theoretically, although not ideally, you could sit/stand when you want and not be violating any rubric - that explains all the different postures you can see in the painting you linked to. I would still argue for postural uniformity though…at least as long as we still have pews in our churches.
In the TLM missles used by the FSSP priests, there are rubrics and instructions as well as explanations of some of the rubrics. Prehaps in Pre-Vatican II days, there was no need for this, since everyone had been doing the same thing for a thousand years.
 
In the TLM missles used by the FSSP priests, there are rubrics and instructions as well as explanations of some of the rubrics. Prehaps in Pre-Vatican II days, there was no need for this, since everyone had been doing the same thing for a thousand years.
Haha, not quite. There has always been pretty widespread variation in practices the Church does not govern, such as when to sit or stand. Nowadays, somebody publishes a Little Red Book and people who don’t know better think all the marginalia were penned by the sainted hand of Pius V. Anyway, five hundred years ago they were just installing the pews; a thousand years ago, if the histories are to be believed, people were meandering about transacting business in the nave, wandering from altar to altar, occasionally bringing animals in, and generally behaving terribly. 🙂
 
I just do what the book says.

While you might have valid historical/theological points (I don’t know, since I have not investigated those particular things), that kind of thinking sometimes had led to a lot of destruction and disunity (I won’t get into more specifics).
It`s setting a dangerous precedent, albeit a “retro” one: seemingly innocent, and even NOBLE; but…
However, in the spirit of traditionalism, I wanted to personally rekindle the standing mode of worship of our forefathers and personally abstain from sitting during the Mass.
Ouch!!! :eek:
I just follow what the book says to do and say. That way it’s obedient, submissive, harmonious, and… easy.
Yep: “Say the black: do the red.”
I`m just thankful to be able to get to a TLM Solemn High Mass almost every Sunday. Certainly not worried about any small real or imagined “problem areas”! 🤷
I don’t think that’s an entirely accurate assessment…remember, this was in the OP.
No: he was referring to the TLM…i think. Apology if i`ve misunderstood your post. (“OP” should read “OF”?)
…This is apparently a mediaeval accretion whereby the unsung low mass began to influence the sung high mass…

It’s also denying the existence of the past.

-Karl
Overall, the TLM doesn`t do that ,though, thanks be to God.
 
No: he was referring to the TLM…i think. Apology if i`ve misunderstood your post. (“OP” should read “OF”?)
just passing by

I think it’s supposed to be OP. It was followed by a quote from the “Original Post”. 🙂
 
Whenever this gets raised in the past priests - all priests say that we do whatever we feel comfortable. That is the closest answer we get to anything.

Therefore it can’t be litugical abuse as you put it because you do whatever you feel comfortable.

That is as much as anyone gets from priests when they’ve asked direct.
 
Haha, not quite. There has always been pretty widespread variation in practices the Church does not govern, such as when to sit or stand. Nowadays, somebody publishes a Little Red Book and people who don’t know better think all the marginalia were penned by the sainted hand of Pius V. Anyway, five hundred years ago they were just installing the pews; a thousand years ago, if the histories are to be believed, people were meandering about transacting business in the nave, wandering from altar to altar, occasionally bringing animals in, and generally behaving terribly. 🙂
LOL! 😃 Yes, I suppose that was true sometimes 🙂

It was also true that in many places all over Europe the church was the personal property of the local lord, and he would have been responsible for the upkeep of the place and providing the ‘living’ for the curate.

One of the things I don’t like about pews is that they function as a sort of corral to keep people penned in. One becomes (in attitude) somewhat more like part of an audience and a bit less like a participant in worship after the introduction of pews.

Pews also make good drums, something little children eventually pick up on. 🙂

Although there may not be any actual liturgical theological nor canonical requirement to take a seat, one would never know it, usually the ushers are there to tell people to sit down. The practice is so pervasive and has been going on so long now that it is small wonder why people might come to think they are doing something wrong, or even sinning if they refuse to sit.
 
I find the idea of removing the practice of sitting in mass a little odd as I think it can actually add to he reverence of those attending. I understand where the OP is comin from in saying that it can seem like you’re being released… But there is another way to look qt it too. People can participate in all sorts of things while sitting down, so just because one sits doesn’t mean they stop participating, they just participate in a different way. Also, seeing as both standing and kneeling signify differed levels of respect, ( eg one stands for the gospel out of respect forthe word of God, and kneels for the consecration) I think the fact that people sit at certain times emphasizes the honor implied when one stands or kneels.
 
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