Refusing to sit as "liturgical abuse"?

[m134e5]

You don’t have to “feel” reverent to be reverent- obedience can also be reverent. I don’t think going against the norm (whether or not we agree with it) and potentially distracting others during the *public *prayer of the Church (the liturgy- in this case, the Mass) is very reverent.

 

[iohanne]

Thank you everyone for both your criticisms and your encouragement. I will take all of your responses into account and I will examine myself for pride. While I am reflecting on all this, I will revert to what I did before and stand at the back as to not distract anyone. I am willing to sacrifice the up-close aesthetics of liturgy in order to uplift my prayer life, reinforce the idea of a sacrifice, cultivate an unceasing prayerful and contemplative state, all to hopefully bring myself closer to God.

I simply do not understand the sacredness and reverential character of sitting.

Please pray for me, a sinner.

 

[Peggy_in_Burien]

Haha, not quite. There has always been pretty widespread variation in practices the Church does not govern, such as when to sit or stand. Nowadays, somebody publishes a Little Red Book and people who don’t know better think all the marginalia were penned by the sainted hand of Pius V. Anyway, five hundred years ago they were just installing the pews; a thousand years ago, if the histories are to be believed, people were meandering about transacting business in the nave, wandering from altar to altar, occasionally bringing animals in, and generally behaving terribly.

I don’t know about pews five hundred years ago…my grandmother’s parish church in Spain had no pews even in the 1920s. The people knelt on the hard stone floors, the well-off had their own little kneelers. After my grandfather immigrated to America, he sent home money so his fiance could have a kneeler!

When I was stationed in Germany some 30 years ago, many of the churches had no pews or kneelers. Folding chairs had been brought in for modern people.

BTW I was at the TLM Low Mass last night, and that involves almost all kneeling, except sitting for the Epistle reading and the homily, and standing for the Credo. That was a loooong 45 minutes on these 55 year old knees.

 

[iohanne]

I don’t know about pews five hundred years ago…my grandmother’s parish church in Spain had no pews even in the 1920s. The people knelt on the hard stone floors, the well-off had their own little kneelers. After my grandfather immigrated to America, he sent home money so his fiance could have a kneeler!

When I was stationed in Germany some 30 years ago, many of the churches had no pews or kneelers. Folding chairs had been brought in for modern people.

If it wasn’t for the skyrocketing secularism, I’d move to Europe somewhere.

BTW I was at the TLM Low Mass last night, and that involves almost all kneeling, except sitting for the Epistle reading and the homily, and standing for the Credo. That was a loooong 45 minutes on these 55 year old knees.

Iaha! I rarely attend a missa lecta because I’m so busy on the weekdays to make it downtown where the TLMs are at so I only attend missa solemnis on Sundays. When I do attend, I did notice quite a bit of kneeling and even I, at 24, began to feel a little uncomfortable. Hopefully when I’m 55, my knees can work the miracles that yours can. I have no problem with kneeling whatsoever and I would prefer to kneel by the altar rails and receive the Eucharist on the tongue rather than receive standing. My post was mostly about the elimination of sitting.

 

[Fiasco]

I find the idea of removing the practice of sitting in mass a little odd as I think it can actually add to he reverence of those attending.

Good point.
While sitting, it`s possible, especially during a Solemn High Mass, to more or less forget our posture, and let the music, the singing, the chant wash over and through us. We passively receive and experience the beauty of it all, and the other physical sensations tend to fade away. For a short while, the spirit can forget the material side…

Crazy? Probably, but that`s my own experience.

 

[iohanne]

My answer would be Yes. It sounds as if youre setting yourself up as a judge, over and against the Church. Is there** PRIDE **there......a sense that you want to be more reverent, more Catholic, than the Church, Herself? :eek: In its own way, your idea is just as much an abuse as that carried out by some in the OF. The Church, with Her almost-2,000 years of Holy Spirit-guided wisdom, knows whats best for us better than any of us as individuals would.

Except that as far as I can tell the Church has never released a document or even explicitly ordered for pews to be introduced widescale. The old cathedrals and basilicas in Europe still don’t have pews. At most they have fold up chairs or moveable benches that they bring out. This indicates that they’re not in any sense a permanent furniture of the church building and this has implications for prayer and posture. Sitting crept into the Church as a concession to the infirm, weak and lazy, hence the expression, “The weak go to the walls” because the walls had pews for the elderly and the handicapped. As far as I know there weren’t any kind of official endorsements of the Church as part of her accumulated wisdom. Like what, there’s an accumulated wisdom on the “theology of sitting”? Yeah, okay.

I’m not attempting to set myself over and against the Church because there is no official Church position. Like I said in my original post, which I assumed you read, there are no standardised rubrics for body postures. I was asking about what people thought concerning my break from custom, not my break from some non-existent canon law.

Ouch!!!

What’s “ouch” about a personal devotion to rekindle the faith of our forefathers? Are you implying that what was once held sacred and taken for granted for thousands if not millions of people is now blasphemous or heretical for me to attempt to personally practice?

…

What does this mean, exactly? Are you disputing my claim that the missa lecta began to influence the missa solemnis?

Good point. While sitting, it`s possible, especially during a Solemn High Mass, to more or less forget our posture, and let the music, the singing, the chant wash over and through us. We passively receive and experience the beauty of it all, and the other physical sensations tend to fade away. For a short while, the spirit can forget the material side…

This is exactly the problem. We are an embodied race who worship an Incarnate Lord and who profess the general resurrection of the dead in glorified bodies. The body also has a role in redemption and is also what will be redeemed. The spirit should never forget the material side. Secondly, the way you’re describing liturgy makes it sound like a good concert or play or dance. Yes, the arts can create ecstatic experiences in human beings. But liturgy is not entertainment; it is prayer and it is sacrifice. Christ acts and he acts through His Mystical Body. One does not sit at the foot of the Cross to experience the beauty of it all and to let the physical sensations fade away.

So far you have not presented actual theological, anthropological, historical or any kind of intelligent case for why sitting can be reverent, prayerful and contemplative.

 

[Fiasco]

Except that as far as I can tell the Church has never released a document or even explicitly ordered for pews to be introduced widescale…
…Like what, there’s an accumulated wisdom on the “theology of sitting”? Yeah, okay.

I’m not attempting to set myself over and against the Church because there is no official Church position. Like I said in my original post, which I assumed you read, there are no standardised rubrics for body postures. I was asking about what people thought concerning my break from custom, not my break from some non-existent canon law.

And i told you what i thought.

What’s “ouch” about a personal devotion to rekindle the faith of our forefathers? Are you implying that what was once held sacred and taken for granted for thousands if not millions of people is now blasphemous or heretical for me to attempt to personally practice?

Ouch!!! again, this time in response to the above. “…to rekindle the faith of our forefathers…” Youre implying that because most of us are happy to sit, weve lost (at least in part) the faith of our forefathers? A bit judgemental?
There are a few aspects of the TLM that i wonder about; but i wouldnt have the hide to try to change them. im just grateful for being able to “be there”.

The original “Ouch!!! ” was a reaction to your words:

However, in the spirit of traditionalism, I wanted to personally rekindle the standing mode of worship of our forefathers…

…(Same as below)

What does this mean, exactly? Are you disputing my claim that the missa lecta began to influence the missa solemnis?

That row of dots? It`s…er…a dividing line separating a statement made by you from a statement made by Karl. Nothing more, nothing less. Nothing sinister about it.
My comment above your statement was actually referring to the fact that you were not talking about the OF. (PHEW!)

…(Same as above)

This is exactly the problem. We are an embodied race who worship an Incarnate Lord and who… [etc ]

In case you think im a gnostic/manichean, or even worse, if possible, a spiritual descendent of Oliver Cromwell :eek:, im not. As for the rest of that paragraph: what do you take me for???

So far you have not presented actual theological, anthropological, historical or any kind of intelligent case

You should know by my screen name that i`m not over-endowed in the intellectual realm. A con-artist told me that “Fiasco” is Italian for something pretty good.** Sucked right in!!! **

for why sitting can be reverent, prayerful and** contemplative**.

Speaking of "contemplative, the first “draft” of that responce to thewanderer included a few lines about contemplation during Low Mass…It was finally kicked out in the interest of brevity. i don`t feel like raking it back out.

You asked for comments, and you were given comments: pro and con.
This post of yours only reinforces the feelings that i epressed in my first post on this thread. It seems to radiate an air of angry superiority. For your sake, and for the sake of those around you, i hope you lose what seems, to me at least, uncomfortably like downright arrogance. Sorry, but i think it had to be said.

You disagree with my comments: so be it, but don`t expect me to deny my own feelings.
As Mr Pilate said in AD30 (or thereabouts): “What I have written, I have written.”

 

[iohanne]

Ouch!!! again, this time in response to the above. “…to rekindle the faith of our forefathers…” Youre implying that because most of us are happy to sit, weve lost (at least in part) the faith of our forefathers? A bit judgemental?

I wasn’t implying anything about the state of other people’s inner devotional life or their piety. I was making a very objective statement. Standing was a part of the faith of our forefathers. We’ve lost that. I realise that not everyone goes around learning about the obscure historical periods of our faith and how our liturgy looked a that time hence, in my original post, I said, “personally rekindle” as a devotional and pious practice for myself. Others can do what they want. Like I said, I’m more than happy to take the back bench and let the experts in Rome do what they must do in our liturgical renewal. It was a personal decision with personal implications. I don’t spend my time seeking to look at the speck of dust in other people’s eyes.

You asked for comments, and you were given comments: pro and con.
This post of yours only reinforces the feelings that i epressed in my first post on this thread. It seems to radiate an air of angry superiority. For your sake, and for the sake of those around you, i hope you lose what seems, to me at least, uncomfortably like downright arrogance. Sorry, but i think it had to be said.

To be frank with you, I’m not at all angry about the pew issue and I don’t at all feel superior to everyone. I wanted to provide the history and theology behind why I’ve decided to take up a personal pious and devotional practice and present eloquently the reasons behind it. There is no judgement on anyone else’s practices during liturgy. I think my original post did that well. If you’re finding angry superiority, I’m at a loss as to how.

To be even more frank with you, my previous post (my fourth post in this thread) was aimed specifically at you because of all the people who commented, you were the one who commented the most - 3 times - and each and every single time was accusatory and inflammatory. Everyone else said their piece and bowed out. Some people posted a second time to respond to something someone else said. You however posted two more times in order to somehow reinforce the idea that somehow something as simple as standing during liturgy is being ungrateful that we have a TLM, or disobedient to a Church decree that doesn’t exist, etc. You might see yourself as some kind of moral police where you can go around accusing people for their moral failings but I think you’re way out of line here. So I posted my sarcastic and angry post at you. I didn’t previously have any anger or any kind of feeling whatsoever towards pews or people who sat or the Church that allowed pews to enter. I was making unemotional, objective statements about history in my original post.

I don’t feel superior and have never felt superior in my life and in fact I suffer from a very low self-esteem and don’t have a very good image of myself. I’m gay whilst trying to be a good, celibate Catholic. I’ve failed at university. I don’t have many friends because mostly they either don’t like the fact that I’m Catholic or if they’re Catholic, most people think I’m disgusting to be around. I have a horrible relationship with my father. I’m not particularly pleasant-looking. I’m not particularly talented at anything. All I did was express the desire to rekindle the practice of my ancestors - for my own personal prayer life at liturgy - and I provided evidence that it has historical antecedents and the theology that can support that practice. In response, I get called disobedient, arrogant, angry, superior, etc. when I have, until my last post, behaved politely and in my second and third post in this thread, even thanked people for their responses whether or not they agreed with me. I had ignored your first two posts in the spirit of charity but when you decided to post a third time, I felt hurt and embarassed so I responded in anger.

 

[floresco]

And i told you what i thought.
Ouch!!! again, this time in response to the above. “…to rekindle the faith of our forefathers…” Youre implying that because most of us are happy to sit, weve lost (at least in part) the faith of our forefathers? A bit judgemental?

You omitted the phrase “personal devotion” and it is important. A person practicing a personal devotion is not implying a judgement on those who who do not practice it. It means it is something that he personally finds an aid to devotion. It is pretty much the opposite of judging others.

This post of yours only reinforces the feelings that i epressed in my first post on this thread. It seems to radiate an air of angry superiority. For your sake, and for the sake of those around you, i hope you lose what seems, to me at least, uncomfortably like downright arrogance. Sorry, but i think it had to be said.

This, on the other hand, really is judgmental. You are imagining angry superiority and arrogance. It did not have to be said. Really. Nobody was helped by your insults against the OP.

 

[Fiasco]

In my original post, I said, “personally rekindle” as a devotional and pious practice for myself.

OK. Point taken. Youve expressed your intention more clearly in the above sentence. Had the idea that you were hoping that others would follow. There was some ambiguity in your original sentence. Still dont like your idea, though.

I don’t feel superior and have never felt superior in my life and in fact I suffer from a very low self-esteem and don’t have a very good image of myself. I’m gay whilst trying to be a good, celibate Catholic. I’ve failed at university. I don’t have many friends [Ditto, and a few more as the list progresses]… I’m not particularly pleasant-looking. [same here ] …In response, I get called disobedient, arrogant, angry, superior, etc…** I felt hurt and embarassed** so I responded in anger.

Found out the hard way that a thick skin is an asset on these forums…

You went overboard! For a start, youre anonymous here. You should have PMed with the above info: i wouldnt have posted those (immediately) preceding comments. Thankfully i dont bear the SSA cross, but there are others, including CRUSHING DEPRESSION. My own lifes been ruined by all of those bl**dy " defects! :mad: (Do you stammer? :eek:) By the way, isnt “SSA” more respectful and respectable? That other word lumps you in with the wrong ones.

There was no intention of insulting, hurting etc. You have my sympathy re your numerous crosses, and i`m sorry to have misinterpreted your angry response.

You omitted the phrase “personal devotion” and it is important. A person practicing a personal devotion is not implying a judgement on those who who do not practice it. It means it is something that he personally finds an aid to devotion. It is pretty much the opposite of judging others.

See above…

This, on the other hand, really is judgmental. You are imagining angry superiority and arrogance. It did not have to be said. Really. Nobody was helped by your insults against the OP.

Strong words?
See above.
There was a liberal supply of question marks and vague wording.
Pity a lot of em were directed towards a non-existent target! My screen names apt. Like to swap? The spelling`s almost the same.

Peace to all three of us. Two of us certainly need it!

 

[floresco]

My screen names apt. :D Like to swap? The spellings almost the same.

I have noticed the similarity in our screen names. I can imagine it causing some confusion for others. I was thinking it would help if we had markedly different personalities. Could I be the one with the sense of humour?

By the way, floresco is Latin for “I begin to blossom”. I was feeling very positive about my life when I chose that screen name. I still am, come to think of it.

 

[theyoungmonk]

Well for a Solemn Mass the sitting is in a respect linked to rubrics as the people imitate that which is done by Priests in Choir, so just like thos ein choir would sit we sit, it is of course diffrent in a Low Mass. At least this is what Fortescue says.

 

[iohanne]

Well for a Solemn Mass the sitting is in a respect linked to rubrics as the people imitate that which is done by Priests in Choir, so just like thos ein choir would sit we sit, it is of course diffrent in a Low Mass. At least this is what Fortescue says.

I believe I mentioned in my original post and it was further confirmed by a response in this thread and by a private messaged that I received that postures of the laity during any kind of Mass were never formally rubricised. I’m not too sure that sitting during the Gloria and the Creed are rubrics for the priests and the choir. Which chapter of The Ceremonies of the Roman Rite mentions the postural rubrics for the priests and the choir?