Refusing vaccinations that come from aborted fetal tissue

[SMGS127]

This is an excellent case in point where attacking and even moderately threatening someone is apparently easier online, than face to face. You don’t know me. You don’t knows family, history or anything about me.

I appreciate the reminder. I hope you have a wonderful Lent.

I’m not attacking you. You asked the morality of refusing vaccinations that come from aborted fetal tissue. Since the Church says that they are okay to use if there are no alternative vaccinations, I said that I personally consider it highly immoral to not vaccinate your children with them if there is no other option. I also said that I believed it should be illegal not to vaccinate your children. But nowhere did I say you had malicious intent as a person, nor did I advocate you personally be locked up. But I do advocate that you be required to administer certain vaccines to your children.

I also wish you a blessed Lent.

 

[Momofmyangels]

As a child I received all the recommended vaccines. When I traveled to India to work in an orphanage, I received the recommended vaccines for those traveling abroad. As an RN, I have administered numerous vaccines.

As a mom, I had my first three kids receive all recommended vaccines. Then, I brought my fourth baby in for her 6-week well child visit and the first round of immunizations. Within four hours, my healthy, alert baby was unresponsive to all stimuli and she was completely white. She remained unresponsive for twelve hours. I held her in my arms all night long, praying fervently that she would be ok.

My husband and I then began researching and asking questions of many medical professionals. My daughter’s reaction was not rare. I read horror stories of parents holding their child who had the same reaction as mine, as they took their last breath. Vaccines are not without risk.

I am NOT advocating the elimination of vaccines.
I am suggesting/urging that instead of judging a family who chooses not to vaccinate, and condemning them to jail, you might act with some charity and say a prayer for them. You have no idea what their experiences, history, or what their reasoning is.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

…As an RN, I have administered numerous vaccines…I brought my fourth baby in for her 6-week well child visit and the first round of immunizations. Within four hours, my healthy, alert baby was unresponsive to all stimuli and she was completely white. She remained unresponsive for twelve hours. I held her in my arms all night long, praying fervently that she would be ok.

My husband and I then began researching and asking questions of many medical professionals. My daughter’s reaction was not rare.

Your daughter’s reaction was VERY rare. You infer so yourself by stating you are an RN who has administered numerous vaccines. It is SO rare that there are SO few kids who have these reactions that it is VERY difficult to determine if this was caused by the vaccination, or by some other unknown etiology. You associate your daughter getting sick with her getting vaccinated, but that doesn’t mean the vaccination caused it.

When I have patients tell me about the times they “got sick” after the flu shot, I tell them that if they get into a car wreck leaving my clinic, they cannot say that coming to the Doctor made them get into a car wreck. Association does not equal causation.

Every adverse event that occurs AROUND THE TIME of a vaccination is reported by your Doc to the VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System). Most of these events are simply redness or irritation at the injection site. Also common are mild fever’s, fussiness, and fatigue for a few days after immunizations. This makes sense biologically since the vaccine is activating your immune system’s response.

A few vaccines do have some relatively serious side effects, but again these are incredibly minor. The rotavirus vaccine has an estimated 1 in 30,000 chance of causing an intusussception (a kind of distortion of the bowel) that can be serious, but is easily treatable by your Doc.

The more serious side effects, like death, paralysis/guillain-barre syndrome, etc, are so incredibly rare that despite decades of reports to the VAERS, we simply cannot even measure the risks because they are sooooooo low.

For some correct information on the medical risks of vaccinating your children, see these web-sites below:

cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/6mishome.htm#Vaccinescause

cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm

Bottom line: There IS a risk to getting your children vaccinated, but that risk PALES in comparison to the risk of them getting a serious (and entirely preventable) childhood disease.

 

[Momofmyangels]

Your daughter’s reaction was VERY rare. You infer so yourself by stating you are an RN who has administered numerous vaccines. It is SO rare that there are SO few kids who have these reactions that it is VERY difficult to determine if this was caused by the vaccination, or by some other unknown etiology. You associate your daughter getting sick with her getting vaccinated, but that doesn’t mean the vaccination caused it.

My pediatrician stated the reaction was due to the pertussis vaccine, so no, my daughter was not unresponsive for 12 hours due to “some other unknown etiology.”

I’ll not argue the risks of vaccines. My point in responding to this thread was to advise people to have a little charity and hopefully stop saying parents who don’t vaccinate should be jailed.

 

[UbiCaritas15]

My pediatrician stated the reaction was due to the pertussis vaccine, so no, my daughter was not unresponsive for 12 hours due to “some other unknown etiology.”

I’ll not argue the risks of vaccines. My point in responding to this thread was to advise people to have a little charity and hopefully stop saying parents who don’t vaccinate should be jailed.

Thank you. That people even think that they should have the right to make decisions for my family, the children that GOD gave us or to jail me and take my children is appalling.

And no, the reactions aren’t rare. Not nearly as rare a people think. Given the under the table releases of information under the freedom of information act by the CDC, it is shocking that people continue to not question their own health options.

I hope your daughter is happy and healthy today.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

And no, the reactions aren’t rare. Not nearly as rare a people think. Given the under the table releases of information under the freedom of information act by the CDC, it is shocking that people continue to not question their own health options.

You are woefully misinformed and, worse yet, you continue to spread medical misinformation that may be dangerous for others.

The “shocking” information people get from FOIA releases is just the number of reports to the VAERS. To the uninformed, this makes it look like there are a lot of reactions to vaccines. However that is not the case, as any “event” that occurs “around the time of a vaccine” is reported and investigated.

In the end, after the investigations, other than local site reactions and the occasional feeling under the weather for a few days, our vaccines are incredibly safe.

Momofmyangels - If the pertussis vaccine caused that in your precious daughter, then she is the proverbial “one in a million”…but when we give millions of shots a year, then a few people will have those reactions. I hope she is all better.

 

[Momofmyangels]

Thank you. That people even think that they should have the right to make decisions for my family, the children that GOD gave us or to jail me and take my children is appalling.

And no, the reactions aren’t rare. Not nearly as rare a people think. Given the under the table releases of information under the freedom of information act by the CDC, it is shocking that people continue to not question their own health options.

I hope your daughter is happy and healthy today.

Thanks, UbiCaritas 15. She is now a very happy, healthy eight-year-old gymnast!

 

[thistle]

My pediatrician stated the reaction was due to the pertussis vaccine, so no, my daughter was not unresponsive for 12 hours due to “some other unknown etiology.”

I’ll not argue the risks of vaccines. My point in responding to this thread was to advise people to have a little charity and hopefully stop saying parents who don’t vaccinate should be jailed.

If you are going to quote me then please don’t misquote me!!!

I NEVER said parents who don’t vaccinate should be jailed.
I said if they don’t vaccinate and their children die because of that they should, in my opinion, be prosecuted and jailed because their refusal to prevent the disease by vaccination is a deliberate act which results in a death.

 

[12kidslater]

Out of my twelve children, I had the first nine vaccinated during infancy and the last three I have not vaccinated at all. I stopped vaccinating for the very reason you mentioned (how they are made). I go back and forth with it because I am not fully educated on the matter, but I am learning more all the time. The arguments against vaccinating are growing and are worth more research and thought. I am learning there is more than just one reason not to vaccinate. Keep doing your research…you’re on to something, I do believe.

 

[SMGS127]

If you are going to quote me then please don’t misquote me!!!

I NEVER said parents who don’t vaccinate should be jailed.
I said if they don’t vaccinate and their children die because of that they should, in my opinion, be prosecuted and jailed because their refusal to prevent the disease by vaccination is a deliberate act which results in a death.

Just like with any other needlessly risky behavior, you have to accept responsibility if your risk-taking ends with someone harmed. If you drive with your child in your lap because you “think it’s safer,” contrary to all medical evidence to the contrary, and you get home safely, nothing will happen to you. If you get into an accident and your child dies due to the negligence your denial of car safety regulations caused, you would then be prosecuted. Similarly, if your needlessly risky behavior of not vaccinating your children results in the death of your child or a neighbor’s child, you should be prosecuted. If nothing happens, then you dodged a bullet. But you shouldn’t be taking a risk by avoiding vaccines over pseudoscience and a false understanding of what it means to “trust God.”

 

[LeafByNiggle]

The arguments against vaccinating are growing and are worth more research and thought. I am learning there is more than just one reason not to vaccinate. Keep doing your research…you’re on to something, I do believe.

If one considers research to be doing a google search for websites that warn of the dangers of vaccinations and provide anecdotes of horror stories, and giving such websites equal standing with serious peer-reviewed scientific studies, then they aren’t really doing research. That kind of “research” would also lead a person to believe that the moon landings were quite possibly a fake, 911 was an inside job by the US government, and Elvis is still alive.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

If one considers research to be …

Since it is too late to edit my post #70, I would like to apologize for this insensitive and light-hearted treatment of an issue that failed to acknowledge the genuine anguish that parents feel concerning the welfare of their children. Please consider it withdrawn.

 

[Momofmyangels]

Just like with any other needlessly risky behavior, you have to accept responsibility if your risk-taking ends with someone harmed. If you drive with your child in your lap because you “think it’s safer,” contrary to all medical evidence to the contrary, and you get home safely, nothing will happen to you. If you get into an accident and your child dies due to the negligence your denial of car safety regulations caused, you would then be prosecuted. Similarly, if your needlessly risky behavior of not vaccinating your children results in the death of your child or a neighbor’s child, you should be prosecuted. If nothing happens, then you dodged a bullet. But you shouldn’t be taking a risk by avoiding vaccines over pseudoscience and a false understanding of what it means to “trust God.”

I hope you never have to experience the absolute terror in witnessing your infant/child suffer an adverse vaccine reaction. I also hope you are never faced with the agonizing decision of what to do next; vaccinate or no, all, some or none. I further hope that if you are ever faced with any of this, you are not judged as heartlessly as you are judging here. Remember, you know nothing of other families’ circumstances.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

There are some parallels between children suffering from adverse effects of vaccinations and soldiers going to war. In both cases there is someone taking on some risk so that the vast majority of the population can live in peace. We hate to think of our children as soldiers, and we would gladly take their place if we could. But in the battle against the germs, the children are necessarily on the front lines. Maybe we should honor those children who are harmed like we honor soldiers hurt in war - with special recognition to the families. Of course we try to do everything we can to minimize the risk, just like we provide body armor for soldiers. And we always try to find less risky ways to do things. But if there is no less risky way, and the consequences of giving up the fight are too great, then the risk becomes necessary. Statistics are fine and all, but when it is your child that has suffered, it is hard to consider the statistics. That is also true in war. When a few soldiers are lost in battle, the families of those soldiers are bound to feel like “why did it have to happen to us?” That is why, along with the statistics, we might consider special recognition to those who suffer, like we do for soldiers, instead of just telling the parents “Come on, suck it up! These things just happen sometimes.”

 

[SMGS127]

I hope you never have to experience the absolute terror in witnessing your infant/child suffer an adverse vaccine reaction. I also hope you are never faced with the agonizing decision of what to do next; vaccinate or no, all, some or none. I further hope that if you are ever faced with any of this, you are not judged as heartlessly as you are judging here. Remember, you know nothing of other families’ circumstances.

Sure I do. Compulsory laws always have exemptions if a child is allergic to an ingredient in a vaccine. There is absolutely no reason not to have your children vaccinated, and it is in fact an extraordinary public safety risk not to do so. You are putting other people’s children in harm’s way, period. It doesn’t matter what your reason is; unless you have a valid reason that your child can not have the vaccine (such as an allergy), you are needlessly putting your entire community’s children at risk of fatal diseases by refusing certain vaccinations.

I am not judging anyone. But if you run a stop sign and hurt someone, you have to face judgment. And if you refuse (for a non-allergic reason) to give your child a preventable vaccine for a disease that is fatal to newborns, and a newborn dies as a result of that negligence, you should have to face judgment as well. I don’t see why the behavior of endangering the welfare of one’s community can’t be judged. We judge all sorts of immoral behaviors all the time, such as same-sex relationships or gossip. I’m not judging the person; I’m judging their behavior.

 

[IBombAtomically]

Momofmyangels- I am sorry for your ordeal, if that’s what actually happened. We have no way of verifying your story, but I will take your word for it. That said, it is wrong of you to spread false information by saying your daughter’s reaction was not rare. In fact, it is SO rare, it is almost unheard of. I am interested in what sort of investigation led your pediatrician to say it was 100% caused by the vaccine. Another previous poster already poked holes in that claim, so I won’t drag it out further. Please understand that people will read your comment, be influenced by the unverified anecdote you present, and choose to not vaccinate their child, thus leaving them susceptible to some horrific diseases and putting others in danger as well. While you have my sympathy, we cannot take your claims lightly.

 

[IBombAtomically]

And specifically to UbiCaritas: I’m sorry if my previous post came across as uncharitable. I think it might be more helpful if we took a step back and tried to come to an understanding. Do you agree? At any rate, I think it would be very helpful if you would be willing to explain where you are coming from a little bit more, and we can work from there. I do think your heart is in the right place and you are genuinely wanting to do the right thing. I’m not interested in cutting you down or trying to prove you wrong, but I really want to understand how you formed your stance on this topic. Here are my questions for you:

1. You believe vaccines are dangerous and not worth the risk. Is does this accurately represent how you feel? Where do you get most of your information on this topic? If you could provide specific websites that helped you come to that conclusion, that would be really helpful.
2. Do you feel there are certain sources that offer more reliable information than others? If so, in your research, how have you been able to make the distinction of which websites are reliable for the topic of vaccines?
3. What, if anything, would change your mind about the safety and effectiveness of vaccines? What sort of data or research would cause you to reconsider your stance?

Thank you in advance for considering my questions, and I really hope you’re willing to engage in the discussion, although I understand if you are not because I was rather rude earlier. I’m sorry about that.

 

[Momofmyangels]

Momofmyangels- I am sorry for your ordeal, if that’s what actually happened. We have no way of verifying your story, but I will take your word for it. That said, it is wrong of you to spread false information by saying your daughter’s reaction was not rare. In fact, it is SO rare, it is almost unheard of. I am interested in what sort of investigation led your pediatrician to say it was 100% caused by the vaccine. Another previous poster already poked holes in that claim, so I won’t drag it out further. Please understand that people will read your comment, be influenced by the unverified anecdote you present, and choose to not vaccinate their child, thus leaving them susceptible to some horrific diseases and putting others in danger as well. While you have my sympathy, we cannot take your claims lightly.

And with that, I say goodbye CAF.

 

[IBombAtomically]

And with that, I say goodbye CAF.

I’m very sorry for hurting your feelings, and I hope you don’t leave CAF on account of me.

 

[UbiCaritas15]

And specifically to UbiCaritas: I’m sorry if my previous post came across as uncharitable. I think it might be more helpful if we took a step back and tried to come to an understanding. Do you agree? At any rate, I think it would be very helpful if you would be willing to explain where you are coming from a little bit more, and we can work from there. I do think your heart is in the right place and you are genuinely wanting to do the right thing. I’m not interested in cutting you down or trying to prove you wrong, but I really want to understand how you formed your stance on this topic. Here are my questions for you:

1. You believe vaccines are dangerous and not worth the risk. Is does this accurately represent how you feel? Where do you get most of your information on this topic? If you could provide specific websites that helped you come to that conclusion, that would be really helpful.
2. Do you feel there are certain sources that offer more reliable information than others? If so, in your research, how have you been able to make the distinction of which websites are reliable for the topic of vaccines?
3. What, if anything, would change your mind about the safety and effectiveness of vaccines? What sort of data or research would cause you to reconsider your stance?

Thank you in advance for considering my questions, and I really hope you’re willing to engage in the discussion, although I understand if you are not because I was rather rude earlier. I’m sorry about that.

Well, I had answered almost every question and then my kid hopped on my ipad erased it. Fewer details this time

1. Yes, it is accurate to say that I think one on one the risks outweigh the benefits. From an overall standpoint, the data overwhelmingly shows that most major diseases people bring up in vaccine debates had dramatically dropped before vaccines began to be administered. I read Viera Schreibner’s 100 years of Orthodox research out of boredom about ten years ago. My mother is an anti vax chiro, my father is a middle of the road chemist. I recently read Dr Sears The Vaccine Book, which I think most people consider an even assessment. I don’t really follow any websites, but the recent case in Italy, finding at least a correlation between vaccines and autism was interesting (this is now under appeal.). The info from Japan’s delayed vaccine schedule (which only delays but significant drops the infant mortality) is also interesting. The recent study out of Germany showing that overall health is far better among the unvaccinated is also interesting, but there are a number of different takes on this study.
2. I inherently doubt any study by big medicine, as they only have to prove twice out of ten times that their product “works.” They don’t have to release any studies not in their favor and well, that they agree with themselves should be self evident. I inherently doubt anyone who tries to convince me of something who, by major legislation, is completely faultless if there is an adverse reaction.
3. I think, especially since I don’t believe vaccines caused drops in illness and I don’t accept the germ theory of disease, it would be pointless to worry about the safety of vaccines, but first proving their efficacy would be important. It is useless to say: but what about all the people who haven’t died of disease because of vaccination? It is as easy to prove how many Afghanis would have died had we not intervened.

I think, because of the sheer volume of people who have been vaccinated, it would be very difficult to do a real study, as well as have a control group that wasn’t also affected by other external factors.

Suffice it to say that, unlike the dispensationalists who somehow think Paul outwitted God and instituted the church which finally surfaced in its theological perfection in 1600, God has all of human history in His will. I do not think man outwitted God with a magical shot that can keep people alive when they might have otherwise perished. I think we die when we die, that is His decision and the only thing we can do is improve the quality of our lives. He created man with an amazing creation in his body and He is well aware of how disease works and how the immune system should correspond per His design and I believe He saw all of human history when He did this.

I believe that a properly established and fed immune system is the best option for overall quality of life. I don’t birth in a hospital, because I don’t want my infant exposed to a bacteria breeding ground. I breast feed. We eat fermented foods to bolster the immune system. I make most food from scratch and I am trying to learn gardening to get even closer to our food. We pay more for better food and get by with less in other areas, because my family’s health is very important to me.

I don’t oppose others choice to vaccinate. I don’t believe someone has the right to tell me that I must chance my child, because he thinks it is right. That is fundamentally unChristian. People have brought up the “better for the common good” idea. I was never taught that Jesus died for the common good, but for each individual person. I do not believe in a common good that sacrifices an unwilling victim (I have prayed since I was a child to be a martyr, however I often wonder if this is hubris.). There is no common good that does not recognize the individual. There is no common good argument against poverty, each person has an inherent God given dignity that means I should care for him; this has nothing do with a common good and everything to do with an individual dignity of person. There is no common good argument for almost anything I can think of, but it is late and I don’t think clearly late.

Hopefully you find this at least interesting. . Thanks.