Refusing vaccinations that come from aborted fetal tissue

[EIF5A]

I’m a bit confused…how do you not believe the germ theory but worry about bacteria in hospitals…?

I’m also confused that you think people perceive vaccinations to be “magic shots” to outwit God…

Luke was a doctor…I don’t think medical advancement is an affront to God…

I believe that a properly established and fed immune system…

How do you properly establish and feed the immune system?

Polio? Smallpox? Did the (near) eradication of these diseases make God angry?

I’m sorry…I’m trying to be as understanding as possible…but there is no medical or theological basis for vaccine rejection * on the principles stated above*. (I make no claim about allergic reactions to the vaccine or constituents in the vaccines.)

 

[UbiCaritas15]

I’m a bit confused…how do you not believe the germ theory but worry about bacteria in hospitals…?

I’m also confused that you think people perceive vaccinations to be “magic shots” to outwit God…

Luke was a doctor…I don’t think medical advancement is an affront to God…

How do you properly establish and feed the immune system?

Polio? Smallpox? Did the (near) eradication of these diseases make God angry?

I’m sorry…I’m trying to be as understanding as possible…but there is no medical or theological basis for vaccine rejection * on the principles stated above*. (I make no claim about allergic reactions to the vaccine or constituents in the vaccines.)

The germ theory more or less states that the body is sterile and germs from the air cause disease. This completely ignores the fact that an immune system is involved at all and if left uncaveated would necessarily mean that any sterile body that ran into a germ would be killed by it. The main method of dealing with this idea, by modern medicine, is to kill off a disease by a pill or vaccine, because the body doesn’t have a method of protecting itself. The medical industry however prescribes drugs that suppress the body’s natural reactions which are part of the immune defense mechanism. I’m sure there is good will in the idea of a pill to cure all ills, however decimating the immune system does not cure disease. The immune system however is designed to learn to fight disease. The germ is meant to come in contact with the body and the body is meant to fight it, through this actual immunity is gained and then passed down. The immune system isn’t suppressed and superbugs aren’t created. Distilled: germs don’t cause disease, they cause an immune reaction. An immune system either has immunity already, fights it (symptoms) or a disease results from a weakened immune system. Infants do, as others have pointed out, have a weakened immune system. This is why most diseases we vaccinate for have a large drop off in mortality rates after two. So, naturally the germ theory or immune theory are both applicable for not wanting to have an infant around bacteria.

I don’t know that people actually think vaccines are magic shots that outwit God. I’m sure most people think that God inspired so and so to come up with the shot or the “cure.” The way however, that people refer to medicine and it’s abilities often comes across bordering on idolatry.

I think in the area of emergency necessities allopathic medicine is brilliant. The body, human history, all of it is a whole mystery (as in everything is connected in a way we can’t possibly imagine, not “they just don’t get it” mysterious.). I think day to day medicine tends to miss the forest for the trees.

Establishing and feeding, much of that has to do with eating food that isn’t frankenfood. Unfortunately, that is becoming more and more rare. Fermented foods, which one finds in nearly every culture, have a long history of being associated with a stronger immune reaction.

As I said earlier, the near eradication of most diseases came long before the introduction on the vaccines, so no I am sure God is quite happy that His creation (when not left up to human frailty) worked out the way He intended.

As far as medical reasons to oppose vaccines for myself: I think the risk outweighs the benefit, as I don’t believe a benefit has been established.

As far as theological reasons: For the same reason I don’t smoke (it is harmful to my body) I don’t willingly take medication that I don’t believe is effective or necessary.

I just try to do things as naturally as possible, when possible. I don’t take Advil for a headache, or ibuprofen for a fever or an epidural for labor pains. I just think God knows better than us messing with things. Thanks for asking

Again, this is my understanding. I don’t ask anyone to agree with it.

 

[thistle]

The germ theory more or less states that the body is sterile and germs from the air cause disease. This completely ignores the fact that an immune system is involved at all and if left uncaveated would necessarily mean that any sterile body that ran into a germ would be killed by it. The main method of dealing with this idea, by modern medicine, is to kill off a disease by a pill or vaccine, because the body doesn’t have a method of protecting itself. The medical industry however prescribes drugs that suppress the body’s natural reactions which are part of the immune defense mechanism. I’m sure there is good will in the idea of a pill to cure all ills, however decimating the immune system does not cure disease. The immune system however is designed to learn to fight disease. The germ is meant to come in contact with the body and the body is meant to fight it, through this actual immunity is gained and then passed down. The immune system isn’t suppressed and superbugs aren’t created. Distilled: germs don’t cause disease, they cause an immune reaction. An immune system either has immunity already, fights it (symptoms) or a disease results from a weakened immune system. Infants do, as others have pointed out, have a weakened immune system. This is why most diseases we vaccinate for have a large drop off in mortality rates after two. So, naturally the germ theory or immune theory are both applicable for not wanting to have an infant around bacteria.

I don’t know that people actually think vaccines are magic shots that outwit God. I’m sure most people think that God inspired so and so to come up with the shot or the “cure.” The way however, that people refer to medicine and it’s abilities often comes across bordering on idolatry.

I think in the area of emergency necessities allopathic medicine is brilliant. The body, human history, all of it is a whole mystery (as in everything is connected in a way we can’t possibly imagine, not “they just don’t get it” mysterious.). I think day to day medicine tends to miss the forest for the trees.

Establishing and feeding, much of that has to do with eating food that isn’t frankenfood. Unfortunately, that is becoming more and more rare. Fermented foods, which one finds in nearly every culture, have a long history of being associated with a stronger immune reaction.

As I said earlier, the near eradication of most diseases came long before the introduction on the vaccines, so no I am sure God is quite happy that His creation (when not left up to human frailty) worked out the way He intended.

As far as medical reasons to oppose vaccines for myself: ** I think the risk outweighs the benefit, as I don’t believe a benefit has been established.**

As far as theological reasons: For the same reason I don’t smoke (it is harmful to my body) I don’t willingly take medication that I don’t believe is effective or necessary.

I just try to do things as naturally as possible, when possible. I don’t take Advil for a headache, or ibuprofen for a fever or an epidural for labor pains. I just think God knows better than us messing with things. Thanks for asking

Again, this is my understanding. I don’t ask anyone to agree with it.

I assume you are not being serious. Hundreds of millions of children throughout the world have been saved through vaccinations. That cannot be denied.
You keep throwing God into the equation to justify not vaccinating. Frankly that is ridiculous. God gave us the doctors and medical scientists who have made vaccinations to prevent disease. I, for one, thank God for that.

World Health Organisation states that the number of vaccine-preventable diseases has substantially risen because parents are not getting their children vaccinated, and that the result of that is that the number of children who have suffered illness, will have a life-long disability, and have died has also substantially risen.

The parents of children who suffered or died because of vaccination have gone through a terrible tragedy and they are in our prayers but they are a relatively small number.
The benefits of vaccinations FAR OUTWEIGH the risks.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

The germ theory more or less states that the body is sterile and germs from the air cause disease.

This is a gross misunderstanding and misstatement of the germ theory.

The medical industry however prescribes drugs that suppress the body’s natural reactions which are part of the immune defense mechanism.

Another gross error.

The way however, that people refer to medicine and it’s abilities often comes across bordering on idolatry.

On the contrary, most doctors I know are always describing the shortcomings and limitations of medicine. That is certainly not idolatry.

Establishing and feeding, much of that has to do with eating food that isn’t frankenfood. Unfortunately, that is becoming more and more rare. Fermented foods, which one finds in nearly every culture, have a long history of being associated with a stronger immune reaction.

The discussion of ways in which a better diet can lead to better health is not relevant to the question of the need for vaccinations. People did not get polio because of a lack of fermented foods.

As I said earlier, the near eradication of most diseases came long before the introduction on the vaccines, so no I am sure God is quite happy that His creation (when not left up to human frailty) worked out the way He intended.

This is so wrong on so many levels. First of all, you can’t lump all diseases together. It is true that many of the worst diseases of ancient times have been vastly reduced because of improved sanitation and clean water in developed countries. And any contagious disease can be partly fought using only quarantining, based on the understanding of how contagious diseases spread. But theses measures are vastly helped out by vaccinations in those diseases for which effective vaccines have been developed. You can’t seriously argue that the total eradication of smallpox would have happened on its own without vaccines. And now we are on the verge or eradicating polio. There are only a few pockets of outbreaks left in the whole world. Unfortunately some of those pockets of polio are in countries where fundamentalist Islamic militants, suspicious of western medicine, just like you, are going around killing medical aid workers that are offering polio vaccinations, thus preventing the total eradication of this terrible disease. Of course you are not killing medical aid workers, but the untruths you are spreading can have a similar depressive effects on the public compliance with vaccination programs, which is why it is so important that the untruths you spread be refuted whenever possible.

Elsewhere you said mandatory vaccinations were unchristian. This is also wrong on theological grounds. Even if you were right on the scientific facts (which you are not), the decision to require vaccinations would only be a mistake in prudential judgement, not a moral failing. Christ does not fault us for making a mistake in arithmetic, if we tried our best. Those that think vaccinations are necessary to protect the public safety would not be morally culpable for that decision, even if it were wrong (which it is not).

It is nice that you strive to rely on natural remedies whenever possible. You have the right to do that as long as you are the only one that bears the consequences of that decision. No one should tell you how to take care of your own body. But the consequences of not accepting a vaccine are felt by your entire community, through the spread of infectious diseases that you may contract. You do not have the right to decide for all of them that they don’t need that protection. It must be a communal decision since it affects the community generally, not just the individual taking the vaccine. If you truly believe that vaccines are scientifically unnecessary and dangerous, your only moral avenue of protest is to join the communal scientific discussion and offer your evidence of what you believe to the community, understanding that the community may still decide against your position, and they have every right to do so, since to them you represent a danger to the community.

 

[UbiCaritas15]

While I understand that most people agree with you, that doesn’t make majority opinion a fact. I also do not believe in “the community.” Community is a lie we tell people to get them to agree with majority mentality. The only reality is the individual. A community, while an idea, is not a person, place or thing and can not, as an idea, be subject to any danger. Individuals, would make a better argument, but I do not believe that the efficacy of vaccine has been proven.

 

[UbiCaritas15]

This is a gross misunderstanding and misstatement of the germ theory.

Another gross error.

On the contrary, most doctors I know are always describing the shortcomings and limitations of medicine. That is certainly not idolatry.

The discussion of ways in which a better diet can lead to better health is not relevant to the question of the need for vaccinations. People did not get polio because of a lack of fermented foods.

This is so wrong on so many levels. First of all, you can’t lump all diseases together. It is true that many of the worst diseases of ancient times have been vastly reduced because of improved sanitation and clean water in developed countries. And any contagious disease can be partly fought using only quarantining, based on the understanding of how contagious diseases spread. But theses measures are vastly helped out by vaccinations in those diseases for which effective vaccines have been developed. You can’t seriously argue that the total eradication of smallpox would have happened on its own without vaccines. And now we are on the verge or eradicating polio. There are only a few pockets of outbreaks left in the whole world. Unfortunately some of those pockets of polio are in countries where fundamentalist Islamic militants, suspicious of western medicine, just like you, are going around killing medical aid workers that are offering polio vaccinations, thus preventing the total eradication of this terrible disease. Of course you are not killing medical aid workers, but the untruths you are spreading can have a similar depressive effects on the public compliance with vaccination programs, which is why it is so important that the untruths you spread be refuted whenever possible.

Elsewhere you said mandatory vaccinations were unchristian. This is also wrong on theological grounds. Even if you were right on the scientific facts (which you are not), the decision to require vaccinations would only be a mistake in prudential judgement, not a moral failing. Christ does not fault us for making a mistake in arithmetic, if we tried our best. Those that think vaccinations are necessary to protect the public safety would not be morally culpable for that decision, even if it were wrong (which it is not).

It is nice that you strive to rely on natural remedies whenever possible. You have the right to do that as long as you are the only one that bears the consequences of that decision. No one should tell you how to take care of your own body. But the consequences of not accepting a vaccine are felt by your entire community, through the spread of infectious diseases that you may contract. You do not have the right to decide for all of them that they don’t need that protection. It must be a communal decision since it affects the community generally, not just the individual taking the vaccine. If you truly believe that vaccines are scientifically unnecessary and dangerous, your only moral avenue of protest is to join the communal scientific discussion and offer your evidence of what you believe to the community, understanding that the community may still decide against your position, and they have every right to do so, since to them you represent a danger to the community.

And as far as force being a Christian attribute for the common good, surely Paul would have simply murdered the adulterous man from first Corinthians to force an end to his behavior, Jesus would have overcome Pilate with might and God would have made Lucifer to bow. This is not the case. There is no baptism, marriage, contrition or hint of salvation without the free will given man by God. Force is violence and as we learn in Christ, the only thing that triumphs violence, is active peace.

 

[EIF5A]

I will not comment on the theological basis, since the Church has already issues statements.

But it’s a bit troubling to ignore the benefit of modern medicine because of misinformation.

There’s mistrust (and taken to extreme, unreasonable paranoia) due to not being fully aware of the scientific basis of medicine (including vaccines and drugs).

Since you don’t trust in medicine, I pray that God will provide extra to make up for it.

On the other hand, in the most charitable way possible, please do not spread the misinformation to other people. There’s no inherent virtue in holding a minority position if that position is wrong.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

1. Yes, it is accurate to say that I think one on one the risks outweigh the benefits. From an overall standpoint, the data overwhelmingly shows that most major diseases people bring up in vaccine debates had dramatically dropped before vaccines began to be administered. I read Viera Schreibner’s 100 years of Orthodox research out of boredom about ten years ago. My mother is an anti vax chiro, my father is a middle of the road chemist. I recently read Dr Sears The Vaccine Book, which I think most people consider an even assessment. I don’t really follow any websites, but the recent case in Italy, finding at least a correlation between vaccines and autism was interesting (this is now under appeal.). The info from Japan’s delayed vaccine schedule (which only delays but significant drops the infant mortality) is also interesting. The recent study out of Germany showing that overall health is far better among the unvaccinated is also interesting, but there are a number of different takes on this study…

Scheibner’s views on immunizations has been discredited by virtually every physician and scientist in the world. She certainly doesn’t have “100 years” of anything in medicine…She has virtually no medical training, dropping out of medical school after only her first year and becoming a paleontologist (yes, she studied dinosaurs). Read about her on wikipedia at: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viera_Scheibner

Dr. Sears is only considered “middle of the road” by anti-vaccine extremists. The medical profession finds his work dangerous to children. Here is what the American Academy of Pediatricians say about his work: pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/123/1/e164.full

Japan’s reduced infant mortality has many, many causes, none of which have to do with their different immunization schedule. Start with their incredibly low birth-rate, and figure WHO is having the babies…only those who really, really, really want to have kids.

1. I inherently doubt any study by big medicine, as they only have to prove twice out of ten times that their product “works.” They don’t have to release any studies not in their favor and well, that they agree with themselves should be self evident. I inherently doubt anyone who tries to convince me of something who, by major legislation, is completely faultless if there is an adverse reaction. .

UbiCaritas “inherently doubts” medical studies which are published in a manner that if anyone doubts them then they can REPEAT the study on their own and see if they get a different result…like what happened when Andrew Wakefield FRAUDULENTLY did a study that showed vaccines cause autism. When his study was repeated nobody could get the same results, his fraud was eventually discovered, and he had his medical license revoked. Yet she believes a retired paleontologist and a single doctor that has been repeatedly rebuked by every medical organization.

1. I think, especially since I don’t believe vaccines caused drops in illness and I don’t accept the germ theory of disease, it would be pointless to worry about the safety of vaccines, but first proving their efficacy would be important. It is useless to say: but what about all the people who haven’t died of disease because of vaccination? It is as easy to prove how many Afghanis would have died had we not intervened…

Germ theory of disease only applies to infectious diseases. Alzheimers, for example, has nothing to do with germs (viral, bacterial, or prion). This shows your lack of basic medical sciences.

Vaccines have been proven effective a million times over. Look at the areas where resurgence of these disease occur and you will find a growing lapse in herd immunity, often because of people like UbiCaritas who spread their misinformation to others.

I think, because of the sheer volume of people who have been vaccinated, it would be very difficult to do a real study, as well as have a control group that wasn’t also affected by other external factors…

So you understand it is difficult to do a good study if you have a very low number of people in the study? GOOD…now divide that by 100, or perhaps a 1000, and you will have the number of people who have actually been harmed by vaccines. Hard to study such low numbers of people.

I believe that a properly established and fed immune system is the best option for overall quality of life. I don’t birth in a hospital, because I don’t want my infant exposed to a bacteria breeding ground. I breast feed. We eat fermented foods to bolster the immune system. I make most food from scratch and I am trying to learn gardening to get even closer to our food. We pay more for better food and get by with less in other areas, because my family’s health is very important to me. .

Good for you. But none of these things harms others. Your spreading of medical misinformation may lead someone to NOT immunize their kids, and their kid may come to my ER and DIE because of it.

I don’t oppose others choice to vaccinate.

I do not oppose your choice to NOT vaccinate, but please stop spreading such dangerous misinformation.

 

[UbiCaritas15]

I assume you are not being serious. Hundreds of millions of children throughout the world have been saved through vaccinations. That cannot be denied.
You keep throwing God into the equation to justify not vaccinating. Frankly that is ridiculous. God gave us the doctors and medical scientists who have made vaccinations to prevent disease. I, for one, thank God for that.

World Health Organisation states that the number of vaccine-preventable diseases has substantially risen because parents are not getting their children vaccinated, and that the result of that is that the number of children who have suffered illness, will have a life-long disability, and have died has also substantially risen.

The parents of children who suffered or died because of vaccination have gone through a terrible tragedy and they are in our prayers but they are a relatively small number.
The benefits of vaccinations FAR OUTWEIGH the risks.

How can one prove that vaccines have kept people from death? I can not think of a way to prove this.

When a vaccinated person gets a disease that he has been vaccinated against, which happens and only proves the nonefficacy, that person has a much higher risk of death than an unvaccinated person who catches the same disease.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

The germ theory more or less states that the body is sterile and germs from the air cause disease. This completely ignores the fact that an immune system is involved at all and if left uncaveated would necessarily mean that any sterile body that ran into a germ would be killed by it. The main method of dealing with this idea, by modern medicine, is to kill off a disease by a pill or vaccine, because the body doesn’t have a method of protecting itself. The medical industry however prescribes drugs that suppress the body’s natural reactions which are part of the immune defense mechanism. I’m sure there is good will in the idea of a pill to cure all ills, however decimating the immune system does not cure disease. The immune system however is designed to learn to fight disease. The germ is meant to come in contact with the body and the body is meant to fight it, through this actual immunity is gained and then passed down. The immune system isn’t suppressed and superbugs aren’t created. Distilled: germs don’t cause disease, they cause an immune reaction. An immune system either has immunity already, fights it (symptoms) or a disease results from a weakened immune system. Infants do, as others have pointed out, have a weakened immune system. This is why most diseases we vaccinate for have a large drop off in mortality rates after two. So, naturally the germ theory or immune theory are both applicable for not wanting to have an infant around bacteria…

You are, once again, wrong on everything scientific and medical.

This is no-where near an adequate description of germ theory. Germ theory started with Koch (one bug = one disease), and has been modified with scientific advances. We now know that one bug can cause multiple diseases, and yet multiple diseases are not caused by bugs.

Our antibiotics, used to kill bacteria, supplement the body’s natural immune system by directly killing the bacteria…usually attacking some substrate of the bacterial cell that our eukaryotic cells do not have (different ribosomal subunits, etc).

YES, we have some medications that depress our immune system, but we DON’T use them for infections. We use those medication (steroids, DMARDS, NSAIDS, etc) for the non-pathogenic diseaes (arthritis, asthma, etc).

As I said earlier, the near eradication of most diseases came long before the introduction on the vaccines, so no I am sure God is quite happy that His creation (when not left up to human frailty) worked out the way He intended.

In the history of mankind there have been TWO causes of a rapid reduction in infectious mortality. The first cause was improved sanitation, specifically of sewer water. Various civilizations in history knew the importance of clean drinking water (greeks, romans, etc), yet we “lost” this info during the middle ages. John Snow, the “Father of Public Health” figured it out with the “broad street pump” about 1850. This led to the cleaning up of London’s public drinking water supplies, and the rates of cholera dropped. In area where drinking water is again contaminated, infectious diseases return (see Haiti for an example).

The second cause is immunizations. Immunizations have wiped out smallpox, and virtually wiped out polio. Many other horrible diseases (read my first post here for examples) are now exceedingly rare due to immunizations. However, just like when we our drinking water is contaminated, when our immunization rates fall these diseaes recur. Look at resurgence of diphtheria with the fall of Soviet Russia, or the various places around the US where we have poor immunization rates (because too many people listen to misinformation put out by Schiebner and Sears) we have increased rates of these diseases.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

How can one prove that vaccines have kept people from death? I can not think of a way to prove this.

When a vaccinated person gets a disease that he has been vaccinated against, which happens and only proves the nonefficacy, that person has a much higher risk of death than an unvaccinated person who catches the same disease.

Look at the meningitis death rate before the introduction of prevnair and meningococcus vaccine. Now look at the death rate afterwards. There is your answer to your first question.

The second question requires an understanding of the immune system. I’ll use an example: I have probably seen 50 people who tested positive for influenza this year. Many of them got the flu shot. However those who got the flu shot were not nearly as ill as the people who didn’t.

Nobody has EVER said that immunizations provide you with Captain America’s Shield type of protection, just that they help…a LOT.

 

[UbiCaritas15]

I will not comment on the theological basis, since the Church has already issues statements.

But it’s a bit troubling to ignore the benefit of modern medicine because of misinformation.

There’s mistrust (and taken to extreme, unreasonable paranoia) due to not being fully aware of the scientific basis of medicine (including vaccines and drugs).

Since you don’t trust in medicine, I pray that God will provide extra to make up for it.

On the other hand, in the most charitable way possible, please do not spread the misinformation to other people. There’s no inherent virtue in holding a minority position if that position is wrong.

Most of the people I know IRL do not choose to vaccinate. Like I said, I have been asked for my opinion on the matter by people looking for info and I generally refer them the their pediatrician. I don’t like to interfere.

My kid has a pediatrician, and we have never missed a visit. As I said, I think allopathic medicine is best in an emergency and I would take my kid to the hospital in an emergency, no questions. I myself, while I would prefer to abstain, would do whatever my husband wanted.

Thanks for a nice conversation . Happy Ash Wednesday!

 

[EIF5A]

Thanks for a nice conversation . Happy Ash Wednesday!

Thank you. I’m just worried that someone you love may unnecessarily suffer if it’s preventable or treatable with modern medicine.

Happy Ash Wednesday to you too!

I hope I didn’t come off as offensive. In the end, we’ll all just return to ashes and this conversation is just a passing wind.

 

[mommamaree]

And the way that Drs come up with “facts” is a joke. So…

The only fact is that vaccine efficacy is highly challenged by the advances in sanitation that appeared close in history together. The actual data shows that most diseases that people get excited about actually peaked and started to decline before the introduction of the vaccine. Facts also show that most childhood diseases that we vaccinate for are statistically non-life threatening after the age of two, but we boost people through college. Not only that but a mother who is naturally immune can pass anti-bodies through her child through breast feeding, which ideally can last until two and does in many cultures. A Dr is a sales person, no different than a car salesman.

There is risk or death with a vaccine or without. This is the legacy of humanity since the time of Adam.

And here is where you lost me. Making such damning statements about people who devote their lives to the practice of medicine, to help other people, to cure them of diseases and to extend their lives…such a statement as yours here is slander.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

While I understand that most people agree with you, that doesn’t make majority opinion a fact. I also do not believe in “the community.” Community is a lie we tell people to get them to agree with majority mentality. The only reality is the individual. A community, while an idea, is not a person, place or thing and can not, as an idea, be subject to any danger.

Nonsense. The community is just a shorthand way of referring to a group of people. These are real individual people who certainly can be subject to danger. Don’t you think a pedophile living in your neighborhood and hanging around the playground is a danger to the community? Your objection to the use of the term “community” just doesn’t make any sense.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

And as far as force being a Christian attribute for the common good, surely Paul would have simply murdered the adulterous man from first Corinthians to force an end to his behavior, Jesus would have overcome Pilate with might and God would have made Lucifer to bow. This is not the case. There is no baptism, marriage, contrition or hint of salvation without the free will given man by God. Force is violence and as we learn in Christ, the only thing that triumphs violence, is active peace.

Really? You don’t believe in the use of force to respond to a danger to the population? There are plenty of instances where the Church teaching absolutely requires that force be used, or at least permits it.

 

[UbiCaritas15]

Really? You don’t believe in the use of force to respond to a danger to the population? There are plenty of instances where the Church teaching absolutely requires that force be used, or at least permits it.

I would be interested to see where the Church would permit force to be required. I do however agree that Jesus and Paul would say not to resist. I currently have the right to choose, so it is not resistance. If I did not have that right, then I have no option but to (as I feel) “not resist one who is evil”, because yes, I believe that force is evil.

Nonsense. The community is just a shorthand way of referring to a group of people. **These are real individual people who certainly can be subject to danger. **Don’t you think a pedophile living in your neighborhood and hanging around the playground is a danger to the community? Your objection to the use of the term “community” just doesn’t make any sense.

I agree that there are individual people who obviously have rights, which is why I will continue to vote for my individual right to choose. A society/community/whatever collectivist word one wants to use however, can not have rights. The individuals in the group, yes. The group, no.

 

[UbiCaritas15]

Thank you. I’m just worried that someone you love may unnecessarily suffer if it’s preventable or treatable with modern medicine.

Happy Ash Wednesday to you too!

I hope I didn’t come off as offensive. In the end, we’ll all just return to ashes and this conversation is just a passing wind.

I understand and I know most people feel that way. My worry is that someone I love might unnecessarily suffer because of a choice to vaccinate… it seems the same to me, but I know I’m a minority opinion.

We will all be dust. I went to a wonderful presanctified Liturgy tonight, so I am not offended by anyone or anything

 

[UbiCaritas15]

Scheibner’s views on immunizations has been discredited by virtually every physician and scientist in the world. She certainly doesn’t have “100 years” of anything in medicine…She has virtually no medical training, dropping out of medical school after only her first year and becoming a paleontologist (yes, she studied dinosaurs). Read about her on wikipedia at: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viera_Scheibner

Schreibner didn’t do any tests, merely noticed possible coincidences and analyzed data (if I remember correctly.) I don’t think one needs to be a medical Dr to do that.

Dr. Sears is only considered “middle of the road” by anti-vaccine extremists. The medical profession finds his work dangerous to children. Here is what the American Academy of Pediatricians say about his work: pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/123/1/e164.full

I didn’t find his book to be middle of the road personally, that was the impression that the person who recommended that I read it felt.

Japan’s reduced infant mortality has many, many causes, none of which have to do with their different immunization schedule. Start with their incredibly low birth-rate, and figure WHO is having the babies…only those who really, really, really want to have kids.

I’m sure one can’t say that can’t be the cause, but I certainly wouldn’t disagree that there are probably other outside factors as well.

UbiCaritas “inherently doubts” medical studies which are published in a manner that if anyone doubts them then they can REPEAT the study on their own and see if they get a different result…like what happened when Andrew Wakefield FRAUDULENTLY did a study that showed vaccines cause autism. When his study was repeated nobody could get the same results, his fraud was eventually discovered, and he had his medical license revoked. Yet she believes a retired paleontologist and a single doctor that has been repeatedly rebuked by every medical organization.

Yea, it seems readily apparent that a medical organization that is invested in a billion dollar a year business would obviously want to discredit someone who dissents from the popular opinion. I never said anything about vaccines causing autism, although I did cite the Italy finding and I also stated that was under review. I don’t think that has been proven or disproven. The jury is out. As far as testing of medicines, the FDA is every other week saying such and such causes this that and the other thing; so if the testing methods were so ethical how did those same medicines get approved by the FDA to begin with?

Germ theory of disease only applies to infectious diseases. Alzheimers, for example, has nothing to do with germs (viral, bacterial, or prion). This shows your lack of basic medical sciences.

I agree. I was talking about communicable disease. Not cancer or Alzheimers.

Vaccines have been proven effective a million times over. Look at the areas where resurgence of these disease occur and you will find a growing lapse in herd immunity, often because of people like UbiCaritas who spread their misinformation to others.

I don’t spread misinformation. I have already addressed that twice.

So you understand it is difficult to do a good study if you have a very low number of people in the study? GOOD…now divide that by 100, or perhaps a 1000, and you will have the number of people who have actually been harmed by vaccines. Hard to study such low numbers of people.

I’m holding back my answer because I really don’t like to argue.

Good for you. But none of these things harms others. Your spreading of medical misinformation may lead someone to NOT immunize their kids, and their kid may come to my ER and DIE because of it. I do not oppose your choice to NOT vaccinate, but please stop spreading such dangerous misinformation

I merely commented that the poster could research vaccine safety if she was worried about the fetal tissue. Then every*** single alarmist jumped on me like I was on fire, at which point I merely stood up for myself and tried to answer questions that were asked. *** As I have stated, now three times, I don’t give people advice. Unless people ask me to explain myself, I keep my opinions to myself, because I realize it is a controversial subject. But I do have my own opinion.

What escapes me is that the evidence that vaccines are so amazing should be so obvious that I don’t even question it. Like chocolate. But a person gives the name of two books and all of a sudden that person is a giant monster of awfulness. Should we start censoring books? Maybe people are just so stupid that we shouldn’t let them read dissenting opinion…

 

[LeafByNiggle]

What escapes me is that the evidence that vaccines are so amazing should be so obvious that I don’t even question it.

It is amazing. Smallpox, gone. Polio, almost gone. It is obvious that people are not getting these diseases anymore. Furthermore, it is obvious that the disease disappeared in exactly those places where vaccinations against them were used, and they did not disappear in those places where it was not used. It doesn’t take a medical doctor to see that.