Refusing vaccinations that come from aborted fetal tissue

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I would be interested to see where the Church would permit force to be required.
Well, what’s stopping you from looking it up? The Catechism is on-line if you don’t have a copy at home.
I do however agree that Jesus and Paul would say not to resist.
If Russia were to launch an invasion of the USA, do you think Jesus and Paul would say not to resist?
I currently have the right to choose, so it is not resistance. If I did not have that right, then I have no option but to (as I feel) “not resist one who is evil”, because yes, I believe that force is evil.
The “evil” force you perceive is just your misperception.
I agree that there are individual people who obviously have rights, which is why I will continue to vote for my individual right to choose. A society/community/whatever collectivist word one wants to use however, can not have rights.
That is not in accord with Catholic teaching.
 
Schreibner didn’t do any tests, merely noticed possible coincidences and analyzed data (if I remember correctly.) I don’t think one needs to be a medical Dr to do that…
No, you don’t need to be a medical doctor. However Schriebner makes the layperson’s mistake of turning association into causation. Again, if you get into a car accident after leaving church, you may erroneously assume that going to church gets you into car accidents. It doesn’t.

Furthermore, Schriebner asserts herself as a “Doctor” due to her PhD, therefore lending credence to her views. But her PhD is not in medicine, immunology, or anything to do with people, but in paleontology.

It is one thing to question. Questioning is the foundation of science. However she goes way beyond questioning and begins to plant obviously false answers in people’s mind.
Yea, it seems readily apparent that a medical organization that is invested in a billion dollar a year business would obviously want to discredit someone who dissents from the popular opinion. I never said anything about vaccines causing autism, although I did cite the Italy finding and I also stated that was under review. I don’t think that has been proven or disproven. The jury is out. As far as testing of medicines, the FDA is every other week saying such and such causes this that and the other thing; so if the testing methods were so ethical how did those same medicines get approved by the FDA to begin with?..
Absolutely medical organizations (ie: pharmaceutical companies) are prone to bias. However you missed the point that these studies are REPRODUCIBLE. When someone does a study that shows something (like vaccines work), then other people reproduce the study on other populations and see if they get the same result. This is science. This is medicine.

This is how we weed out the bad information as well, such as the vaccine=autism study done by Wakefield and published in Lancet. His results were astonishing, so several people tried repeating them. Nobody could get results that approached his, so we knew something was wrong. Wakefield eventually confessed that he purposefully skewed the data (by choosing the participants he knew would be positive). Lancet withdrew the paper, and Wakefield lost his medical license. This is how science works; it is self correcting, like the FDA continually looking at studies about existing medications and treatments.
I don’t spread misinformation. I have already addressed that twice…
You are entitled to your own opinion, but you ARE spreading medical misinformation here. I am not attacking you, but I am certainly attacking the misinformation that you are spreading.
I merely commented that the poster could research vaccine safety if she was worried about the fetal tissue. Then every*** single alarmist jumped on me like I was on fire, at which point I merely stood up for myself and tried to answer questions that were asked. *** As I have stated, now three times, I don’t give people advice. Unless people ask me to explain myself, I keep my opinions to myself, because I realize it is a controversial subject. But I do have my own opinion. …
Again, nobody is attacking you. Just your incredibly dangerous message. I don’t care if you don’t vaccinate your kids, but I care very much that your misinformation may entice someone else to not vaccinate their kids…and their kids come into my ED and die.
What escapes me is that the evidence that vaccines are so amazing should be so obvious that I don’t even question it. Like chocolate. But a person gives the name of two books and all of a sudden that person is a giant monster of awfulness. Should we start censoring books? Maybe people are just so stupid that we shouldn’t let them read dissenting opinion…
It is obvious, you just don’t see it. And nobody is calling you a “giant monster” of anything. And NO, we should not censor books, nor dangerous ideas. They should be met full on with the force of ACTUAL science, medicine, and data.
 
@ UbiCaritas-- this is the first chance I’ve had to read your response to my questions (which, by the way thank you SO much!!) and I’ll probably need to go back in a minute and catch up with the rest of the thread.

I appreciate your point of view, and that you are willing to be so open and discuss it! I promised I wouldn’t argue with you, but would rather try to understand your points, and I’ll try to keep that promise! I’ll share my own story and how I came to my own conclusions in a bit, when I get a chance later today.

The main points I gathered (again, I haven’t read any of the responses since you posted the first one to me) are that your opposition is less about having problems with the data, abut rather the whole idea behind immunizations. The diseases for which we have vaccines went away on their own due to better hygiene and so forth before the vaccines were created, so it is superfluous for people to be vaccinated. You do not trust any information coming from the drug companies because they are mostly out to make a profit. Plus, they are able to falsify their research because there is no system that oversees and verifies the research. We basically have to take their word for it that these things are effective. You also feel the risks have not been properly disclosed. You think it’s pretty suspect that the drug companies don’t have to take legal responsibility if a child is injured due to their vaccine. Also, perhaps you are leery of the science community as a whole because of their perceived disdain for religion, and you can see they might be trying to play God by eradicating diseases. You are not interested in most of the data, because you believe it comes from an unreliable source. I hope I am not putting words in your mouth. Does it seem like I understand the most part of it?

I can understand why you would not trust, say, Astra Zeneca. How do you feel about organizations such as the CDC, NIH, and FDA? Do you feel they can be trusted? I appreciate that you mentioned specific studies, which I’ll try to look up myself in a minute. How were you able to tell that those came from reliable sources?

Finally, I would ask again (and forgive me if you answered and I totally missed it) but what information, if any, would change your mind? Thank you again for the conversation!
 
So, I just thought of another question for you (and thank you for entertaining my curiosity!) and I’ll use diphtheria as an example. If you were to opt out of the DTaP vaccine and heaven forbid your child contracted Diphtheria, I would draw the conclusion logically that you would be against administering any medicine to treat the disease as well? Is this right? The reason I’m making that assumption is because the medicine would be a foreign substance that does not allow the immune system to work on its own, and the medications has likely been developed by the same drug companies who are not trustworthy. Again, I’m not trying to make any points, but I would be interested in how you approach the situation, and the reasons why.

And my second question, if you’ll bear with me, has a little bit of background info. I’m getting my information from the CDC and other medical websites, but not from any commercial pharmaceutical site. I do trust the CDC, but again I would be interested if you think my sources are reliable or not. Here goes:

Diphtheria used to be one of the main killers of children --it was known as the "strangling angel of children-- it’s pretty nasty. I really don’t want my kids getting it. In 1921, there were 206,000 cases of Diphtheria in the U.S., with 15,520 deaths. In the 1920’s a vaccine was developed to combat this disease, after which cases dropped dramatically. In fact, between 2004-2008 alone there were zero (ZERO!) cases reported in the U.S.
The DTap vaccine (which protects against Diphtheria, as well as Tetanus and Pertussis, the latter two I won’t go into because I have the same problem of kids climbing on the computer right now lol) anyway the DTaP vaccine on the other hand, has been associated with severe reactions in less that 1 out of one million doses, and in the cases of severe reaction, it was unclear whether the reaction was caused by the vaccine or another source. There have been no deaths.

Are you wondering when I’m going to finally get around to asking the question?? 😛 Sorry for being long-winded. I’m wondering what people in the anti-vaccine community would attribute the eradication of diphtheria to, if not the vaccine. I agree about the importance of a healthy diet, but in 1921 people ate far less processed foods and artificial ingredients, and they were closer to their food. Also, I’m wondering about the massive difference in public sanitation, which I think was the other reason you gave for why diseases were erased.

Also, if we’re able to draw conclusions from purely correlational data, why would it be that in other places, the only outbreaks of diphtheria happen in small communities that choose to not vaccinate. Why do you think that would be.

Finally, given that in one year there were 15,520 deaths of children from the disease, and there has not been an actual death from the vaccine, I am wondering how you feel the risks of immunization, in this instance, outweigh the benefits.

Please don’t feel that I am trying to argue or challenge you, but something doesn’t add up and I’m trying to figure out what piece I’m missing. I hope you’re having a blessed start to Lent! 🙂
 
I think we may have some common ground, though! There is a lot of evidence over the last few decades (although the evidence collected by the same sources that collect evidence about vaccines and say they’re good) that our microbiome is a factor in good health and that fermented food may help feed out good bacteria. Here’s an article I think you’ll like. nytimes.com/2013/05/19/magazine/say-hello-to-the-100-trillion-bacteria-that-make-up-your-microbiome.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&src=me&
It’s not from a medical journal, but Michael Pollan is very well respected and the information is consistent with opinions of the science community.

*EDITED to add some neat information I left out earlier. Vaccines are made by killed, attenuated or pieces of germs, so they are in fact quite natural. IN fact the immunity you get from a vaccine is the same immunity you get from the disease itself, without actually getting the disease. My dad (an Immunologist from whom I can get more info if you’re interested) and I both have immunity to measles, but I got mine fro a vaccine, and he got his from getting sick. He says he would have rather had the vaccine.
 
You people are amazing. So afraid of one person with a dissenting view. Your magical vaccine god powers of life are clearly a sham.
Simple…you choose “not” to vacinnate …others choose “to” vacinnate. …ain’t America great? I respect your opinions and your “right” not to vacinnate your children. I chose to vacinnate my children…I would do it again. I have the right to do so.
 
Sorry for chiming in late here but I just found your post. There is a line you said your friend said to you…and I have no right to choose what I believe is best for my children. I would be much more worried about that, especially in light of the Justina case at Boston Children’s Hospital where the State did a parent-ectomy on the child. This is a new and dangerous problem that demands our attention. If we do not stand up and fight for our rights as parents, we will loose our children to the government. It is already happening. Justina is not the only child this has happened to at Boston Children’s.
 
Sorry for chiming in late here but I just found your post. There is a line you said your friend said to you…and I have no right to choose what I believe is best for my children. I would be much more worried about that, especially in light of the Justina case at Boston Children’s Hospital where the State did a parent-ectomy on the child. This is a new and dangerous problem that demands our attention. If we do not stand up and fight for our rights as parents, we will loose our children to the government. It is already happening. Justina is not the only child this has happened to at Boston Children’s.
There is an important difference between the Justina Pelletier case and vaccinations. In the Justina case, her condition affects only her. Therefore a stronger case can be made for leaving the ultimate decision for her treatment in the hands of Justina and her parents.

But in the case of vaccinations for contagious diseases, the consequences of not being vaccinated potentially affect everyone who might come in contact with the person not being vaccinated. Since the consequences of the decision affect everyone, it is reasonable to expect that the decision has more communal (name removed by moderator)ut and less individual (name removed by moderator)ut. If your actions (of not being vaccinnated) are going to put me and my children at risk, I want to have some say in that decision of yours.
 
I can see the tables turned on this, and people bullying others into population control because, “Dagnabbit, my kids won’t have food, and you’re contributing to the well-fare system, and why should I personally pay for your lack of responsibility?” Or, my bigger personal concern is genetic screening. More importantly, one reason people may lately be suspicious of the medical community is because women were told for decades to put foreign substances into their bodies to fix absolutely nothing, and have been told it’s good for their health. Yet the WHO very obliquely references the carcinogenic effects of some hormonal contraceptives, and there’s no outrage. Personally, I don’t have a problem with vaccines. I think it’s wise to get them. On the other hand, there’ll probably be some other big super-bug before too long anyway, so I also appreciate UbiCaritas’ greater point about providence. Just some thoughts, and the only I’ll add.
 
I can see the tables turned on this, and people bullying others into population control because, “Dagnabbit, my kids won’t have food, and you’re contributing to the well-fare system, and why should I personally pay for your lack of responsibility?” Or, my bigger personal concern is genetic screening. More importantly, one reason people may lately be suspicious of the medical community is because women were told for decades to put foreign substances into their bodies to fix absolutely nothing, and have been told it’s good for their health. Yet the WHO very obliquely references the carcinogenic effects of some hormonal contraceptives, and there’s no outrage. Personally, I don’t have a problem with vaccines. I think it’s wise to get them. On the other hand, there’ll probably be some other big super-bug before too long anyway, so I also appreciate UbiCaritas’ greater point about providence. Just some thoughts, and the only I’ll add.
Don’t people already say that about (some) welfare recipients…?

With regards to the hypothetical future super-bug: that doesn’t mean options that are currently available that greatly curtail human disease and death shouldn’t be used.

Ironically, the overprescription of “modern-medicine” antibiotics (which don’t work against viruses) is leading to drug-resistant superbugs.
 
Sorry for the necro-bump here, but wanted to share some experiences I’ve had over the past two weeks that are pertinent to this discussion.

#1: 17 yo female, cheerleader in high school. Came to see me because she had a red and swollen ear pinnea. Looked like cellulitis, but she had a few erosions in the rash that just might have been vesicles, which means it could be herpes, or varicella zoster (shingles). Put her on antibiotics and valcyclovir (an anti-viral). Saw her again in 3 days and her ear was doing much better. Came back to see me 4 days later with significant right sided facial weakness and numbness. Ramsay-Hunt syndrome that turned into Bells Palsey due to her chickenpox when she was 2.5 years old. Hopefully this beautiful young woman will have full use of her facial muscles back within six months, however her senior pictures will not be able to capture her true smile because she can’t smile on her right side. Of course, she just may never regain full motor function of her right side, only time will tell.

I’m guessing the mother of the kid who gave her the chickenpox 14-15 years ago will never know the impact…

#2) 26 yo college coed came to ED few days ago with headache, neck ache, and back pain. No fever. She had an upper respiratory infection a few weeks ago, but otherwise healthy. We stuck a needle in her spine to test her cerebrospinal fluid. Sure enough she has meningitis caused by streptococcus pneumonia bacteria…easily preventable if she had gotten her prevnar vaccine. Now she will spend 4-10 days in the hospital receiving intravenous antibiotics every 8 hours…
 
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